There is a difference between designing your own custom rifle and farming the machine work out, vs having a hunter/gunsmith build the absolute best hunting rifle he can based on his decades of hunting experience as well as that of all his clients.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
There is a difference between designing your own custom rifle and farming the machine work out, vs having a hunter/gunsmith build the absolute best hunting rifle he can based on his decades of hunting experience as well as that of all his clients.

What is the difference? How is the Echol's rifle superior and is it that much better [$5,000-8,000.00 worth] than a rifle comprised of identical components costing say, $2500.00?

I think not.


Jordan

quote:

Originally posted by Jordan:
Chuck:

I am fully prepared to be englighted on the value added. But the post which started this thread said nothing about any of the acoutrements you have mentioned. How much is Sunny Hill bottom metal? How are Echol's mounts different than or superior to a Talley QD mount and at what cost? Is Echols manufacturig his own bottom metal, or is he simply reworking someone elses? Again, at what cost?

I have seen, but never handled or fired a legend and I am confident that a deer killed with one is no deader than a deer killed with my Blaser or my HVA. I further doubt that the balance or handling [whatever those terms mean!] is significantly better either.


Jordan

The model 70 is a drop-hammer forging.....The bottom metal that D'arcy uses ranges from ours to Sunny Hills, and Blackburn I believe.

His magazine boxes are desiged by him and manufactured to his specs by a local metal fab shop. His followers are also of his own design.

While some of your comments are not necessarily off-base, you are comparing the blueprinting of a model 700, round receiver, to a Model 70, which is more difficult and time-consuming to true and recut threads on.

Now, to put this into perspective......What is taking your smith 8 hours to fit a barrel to a Remington??? A fella who doesn't do much of them every year will normally only have around 3 hours in that job, and it gets greatly reduced when you're doing them all the time.

If you retain your existing bottom metal, you've saved yourself in the neighborhood of 200-450 dollars and one other item that will be cheap and not match your refinished barreled action.

If you retain your factory follower, you'll once again have something of stamped sheet metal that wasn't designed properly in the first place for reliable feed.

If you retain your existing mag box, you've left it up to Remington to determine how the cartridges needed to feed by means of lips bent into the the box, rather than the feed rails being machined properly for the particular cartridged in question.

There are those among us who realize the difference in a gun that balances and handles as an extension of our body and are willing to either pay for it, or make it right ourselves. If you haven't experienced that before, you are truely missing out.

While not all can afford the echols rifle, it most certainly is a fine piece of hunting equipment that can be cheapened or short-cutted by other smiths who are may or may not know the differences in their product as opposed to D'arcy's, but rest assured......there are differences.

In the last 12 years of manufacturing bottom metal and rifle accessories for some of the best smiths that are on this continent, I've met very few; enough to count on one hand, that has the knowledge that Mr. Echols has when it pertains to the true function of the Model 70 action. It's knowledge you don't get from a book, or an instructor, but what is obtained by being a creative mind, independent thinker, and true craftsman. There are those that have those skills that merely need them refined, and those who, no matter how long they practice, will never obtain them.

In order to understand what you're paying for, you need to understand what it takes to make it.......If you have neither the funds or the incliniation of it's origin, then perhaps someone else will fulfill "your needs".

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:

quote:

Originally posted by Jordan:
Chuck:

I am fully prepared to be englighted on the value added. But the post which started this thread said nothing about any of the acoutrements you have mentioned. How much is Sunny Hill bottom metal? How are Echol's mounts different than or superior to a Talley QD mount and at what cost? Is Echols manufacturig his own bottom metal, or is he simply reworking someone elses? Again, at what cost?

I have seen, but never handled or fired a legend and I am confident that a deer killed with one is no deader than a deer killed with my Blaser or my HVA. I further doubt that the balance or handling [whatever those terms mean!] is significantly better either.


Jordan

The model 70 is a drop-hammer forging.....The bottom metal that D'arcy uses ranges from ours to Sunny Hills, and Blackburn I believe.

His magazine boxes are desiged by him and manufactured to his specs by a local metal fab shop. His followers are also of his own design.

While some of your comments are not necessarily off-base, you are comparing the blueprinting of a model 700, round receiver, to a Model 70, which is more difficult and time-consuming to true and recut threads on.

Now, to put this into perspective......What is taking your smith 8 hours to fit a barrel to a Remington??? A fella who doesn't do much of them every year will normally only have around 3 hours in that job, and it gets greatly reduced when you're doing them all the time.

If you retain your existing bottom metal, you've saved yourself in the neighborhood of 200-450 dollars and one other item that will be cheap and not match your refinished barreled action.

If you retain your factory follower, you'll once again have something of stamped sheet metal that wasn't designed properly in the first place for reliable feed.

If you retain your existing mag box, you've left it up to Remington to determine how the cartridges needed to feed by means of lips bent into the the box, rather than the feed rails being machined properly for the particular cartridged in question.

There are those among us who realize the difference in a gun that balances and handles as an extension of our body and are willing to either pay for it, or make it right ourselves. If you haven't experienced that before, you are truely missing out.

While not all can afford the echols rifle, it most certainly is a fine piece of hunting equipment that can be cheapened or short-cutted by other smiths who are may or may not know the differences in their product as opposed to D'arcy's, but rest assured......there are differences.

In the last 12 years of manufacturing bottom metal and rifle accessories for some of the best smiths that are on this continent, I've met very few; enough to count on one hand, that has the knowledge that Mr. Echols has when it pertains to the true function of the Model 70 action. It's knowledge you don't get from a book, or an instructor, but what is obtained by being a creative mind, independent thinker, and true craftsman. There are those that have those skills that merely need them refined, and those who, no matter how long they practice, will never obtain them.

In order to understand what you're paying for, you need to understand what it takes to make it.......If you have neither the funds or the incliniation of it's origin, then perhaps someone else will fulfill "your needs".

Matt:

I don't know the specifics on how my 'smith chambers. it is a secret. I know it involves the use of "range rods" and fitted bushings in the bore. The chamber is indicated and cut based not on the external surface of the barrel, but based on the centerline of the bore as indicated with a fitted rod and bushings inserted in the bore. The chamber is also cut in a way to account for the natural curvature of the bore [present in almost every barrel to some degree]. Bottom line: it takes the guy quite a bit of time.

Regarding balance and the rifle being an extension of oneself. The balance point of a rifle is not some esoteric knowledge which can only be divined for thousands of dollars. It is a point very near the front action screw on most fine rifles. The stock Echol's uses is his design manufactured by McMillan. I am willing to bet Echol's does not pay more than $350.00 for them because McMillan manufactures proprietary stocks for others at a similar cost. I'll wager the stock has no special
cast-off, comb height or other dimension that is unique and proprietary such that it costs thousands of dollars per rifle to ascertain. similarly, the action and barrel, as they relate to balance and handling are variable which are hardly different from an Echol's rifle and a stock Winchester. As a matter of simple logic, they can't be [unless the steel Echols uses in his barrels weighs less than normal steel!].

Let us concede some nice fit and finish work. There are still no double square bridges, no gold filligree or engraving, no exhibition walnut. In sum, the rifle is nothing that can't be had for $2,000-$3,000 at the hands of any of a dozen 'smiths around the country.


Jordan

Jordan,

I was almost starting to side with you until that last comment about the “secret†chambering technique your smith uses.

I‘ve only chambered a few barrels but I am totally ignorant on how you would index the reamer off the outside of the barrel.If it’s not another secret, could you share that one with me?

This really gets old. Every SINGLE FRIGGING TIME someone mentions or endorses Echol's rifles, a bunch of know it alls want to jump up on a soapbox and tell others how overpriced they are and how they can get the same thing for less. Hell, so what? and more power to you. You don't have to buy one of his rifles but apparently there are enough people that do to keep him busy. Why don't you just spend your money how you want to and let the people who like his rifles spend theirs how they want to and you'll both be happy. In short, give it a break guys.

Disclaimer: I don't own any Echols rifles and probably won't but if someone else does, more power to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Jordan:
Let us concede some nice fit and finish work. There are still no double square bridges, no gold filligree or engraving, no exhibition walnut. In sum, the rifle is nothing that can't be had for $2,000-$3,000 at the hands of any of a dozen 'smiths around the country.


Jordan

Please enlighten all of us as to merely 2 that would build such a rifle for $2,000.00.......Even $3,000.00.

If there out there, I've yet to hear of them.

Man, some of these recent threads have been labor-intensive, but pretty good just the same! This will be a long post, for which I apologize in advance, and I'm laying off of these forums for while after this. I'm going long to answer questions and fill in some gaps -- to tell the story from a client's prespective who has actually shot and hunted with D'Arcy's 'glass rifle extensively for the last five seasons, with much more to come even this year.

In fairness to what Jordan is saying, the question should be, "Can you get a good custom rifle for $2500"? And the answer to that question is "yes".

I've owned several of them, the single best rifle being a Model 70/Hart bbl./Leupold 2.5-8X 300 Win. Mag. on a McMillan stock that I had Glen Pearce build a dozen years ago. I shot the heck out of that rifle, hunted with it extensively, and it never gave me one day's problem, ever. In fact, I recently sold it to one of my best friends, and he intends to take in on a safari we're going on together next season in Zimbabwe, which is fitting. Believe me, I've owned more expensive rifles than that Pearce 300 Win. that weren't anywhere near as good.

But as good as it is, that rifle isn't anywhere near as good as my current pair of 300 Win. Mags. that Echols built, simply because Echols takes everything to the next level, and it's a big next level. You have to remember, D'Arcy has been a trained, professional riflemaker for his entire adult career, apprenticing under Jerry Fisher as a stockmaker, later teaching stockmaking himself at Colorado School of Trades, and he also apprenticed in metalsmithing under Jack Belk and has worked with and studied under Tom Burgess for most of his career. His basic and ongoing training is lightyears ahead of most craftsmen, and it shows in his "Legend" fiberglass rifle as much as it does in his fine 'Classic' rifle. In every field education, training, dedication, natural ability, common-sense, and intelligence always shows, and D'Arcy brings all of these to the table in spades. The only builders of COMPLETE rifles that in my estimate are in Echols' league are Dave Miller & Curt Crum, plus Gene Simillion. That's my personal short list. Ask you favorite builder of 'beanfield rifles' about his training and background sometime, or about any of the other features I'll touch on in this thread. The answers will be telling.........

So what's D'Arcy put into the 'Legend' that can't be had in a typical $2500 rifle? A great deal, including his own McMillan stock that he desinged and built by hand himself; his own magazine system that he developed at great expense that's crafted from thick, heat-treated stainless steel and is superior in every way to any other product that's on the market, including Blackburn's; his own beautiful, bomb-proof milled-steel scope mounting system with the lower ring halves and bases being one integral piece (he sizes the rings to the exact diameter of the scope to be used); a completely remachined and blueprinted action, where even the bottom of the receiver is redone for perfect, even bedding, and even a segement of the ejector slot is welded up and remachined to help stiffen the receiver. For bottommetal, he either remachines the Winchester-supplied unit, or else, as an extra-cost option, he obtains Tom Burgess BM, which is the world's best by a considerable margin. You can't get this unit anywhere else or on anyone else's rifle except from Tom himself. You can also get a built-up and checkered bolt release, plus D'Arcy re-pins, re-times and reworks the entire trigger system and safety, narrowing the trigger to pre-64 dimensions if Burgess BM is used, and milling a special slot in the bolt sleeve to eliminate noise when the safety is move to the 'FIRE' position. Of course, you get a new, milled, spring-steel extractor; special hex-head guard screws from the Half-Moon Rifle Shop; complete pillar-bedding; full barrel break-in and comprehensive testing for 100% reliability and accuracy. Beyond all of the, Echols has Kreiger profile his barrels to his own contour, and in part this is done in order to achieve an uncanny balance that is carefully engineered into the rifle as a whole. Combined with his superb stock that includes a bit of cast-off, these rifles seem to point themselves, which is virtually unheard of in anyone else's 'glass-stock custom rifle. BALANCE is a sometimes forgotten and misunderstood concept, but it's vital to the actual utility of the rifle. The 'benchrest' guys are clueless on this aspect of things.

If I remember right, D'Arcy follows some 82 production procedures with each of these rifles, and I don't know of anyone who puts as much work into a custom hunting rifle except for Dave Miller & Curt Crum, and you can't get a fiberglass stock from them, and the basic cost is much higher.

If the barrel doesn't shoot to his liking (seldom occurs), he replaces the barrel (at his cost) until it does. He also very carefully designed his magazine box to allow for slightly longer bullet seating, plus the ability to extend the seating further out as the throat erodes over time, adding significantly to the useful life of the barrel.

Most other guys semi-blueprint a factory receiver (if they blueprint it at all), screw in a barrel, use the factory magazine, factory potmetal bottometal, screw on factory (Leupold, Millet, Talley) scopemounts, retain the factory screws, and install a copy of a misshapen, committee-designed factory production stock and call it good. Sometimes they test the rifle, sometimes they break-in the barrel and sometimes they don't. If it shoots good groups off the bench, that's good enough. They don't know how to build or evaluate a rifle any other way except to measure a cluster of holes on a piece of paper at 100 yds. Most of their clients don't either.....

One time in B.C., my outfitter friend, the late, great Bob Fontana had me show my Echols-built 375 H&H to one of his other clients, who was shooting a custom, 'glass-stocked 300 Wby. on a Model 700 action, and this was a good rifle. Bob asked me to stuff the magazine full of shells and have other fellow try it. After he was done, has asked me why his riflemaker couldn't get his 300 Wby. to feed anywhere near as well, or to feel and balance even close to as well. My simple answer: "He probably doesn't know how to........."

This stuff goes beyond holes on a piece of paper off the bench -- way beyond. If that's all you require, you can get it with a Browning A-Bolt or Savage 110 for a whole lot less money. Accurate rifles are everywhere these days.

If someone is willing to spend $2500 but no more for a good custom rifle, but not the price of and Echols, that's great, and I don't blame them. D'Arcy's got maybe a two-year backlog as it is, and the less new guys who get on board mean that I'll get my next rifle just that much quicker.

But it is a crock of BS, and shows a genuine lack of familiarity with the product to say that D'Arcy isn't putting anything more into his rifle that the $2500 guys are. That is far, far from the truth. Don't buy that malarky, not for one second...........

AD

Thanks Allen and Matt. Never heard it explained in such detail.

I got to ask though, Can you get one of Mr. Echols rifles with a wood stock? Is that the "Classic" rifle you referred to? If not, what is the Classic?

Thanks,
Terry

A guy making $75,000 a year working 40hrs a week is bringing home almost $37 an hour. I've known guys making well into six figures complain about a gunsmith charging $20 per hour for his labor not including the cost of all his tools machinery etc. Why shouldn't a highly skilled professional gunsmith at the top of his profession be able to earn as much as a pretty average corporate goon?
I guarantee you that I appreciate the work of GNMKR and Mr. Echols more than I do the manager of the local Walmart! I hope that top end of the gunmaking profession can charge enough to make a comfortable living so they will keep making the stuff that I consider fine art, whether or not I can afford it myself....................DJ

About 100 years ago, a guy named Thorsten Veblen wrote a book called "The Theory of the Leisure Class."

One theory, among others, was that certain very expensive items have value just because they are expensive.

Personally, I've often wondered at showpiece rifles. I look at them as fetish items: How else do you explain the hundreds of man hours contributed by ultimately talented craftsmen/artists?

On one small rifle?

I'd be the last one to suggest a price for any rifle by a great riflesmith. Or comment as to whether the price was justified by value.

And I'd hate to think this post would alienate many of the more than intelligent and experienced contributors who have posted to justify Mr. Echols' prices.

My personal insanity is spending so much time on my own projects. Time that I know will never be rewarded in a monetary sense.

flaco

N.B. Like to see it less contentious though. I say, looking for that guy hiding behind the couch emoticon.

Well, for a few years my dream rifle has been a "Legend." I would not care whatsoever to buy a rifle for half the price just because "in my mind" I am getting a better deal. Years ago my dream handgun was a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, and that's what I purchased, even though I could buy a somewhat similar handgun made by other than Freedom Arms.

Other than that, I am 100% certain that there are great gun smiths who could do just as well as Echols if so they desired, and that the few of them who allow the customer to make his own decision, without criticizing other gun smiths, will always do well in the gun business. If I talk to a dealer to purchase a car and the dealer "dogs" other dealers, for whatever reason, that's enough cause for me to take my business to somebody else.

The theory advanced by THORSTEIN VLEBEN of "conspicuous consumption" actually refers to exactly the opposite attitude of that held by owners/users of D'Arcy Echol's "Legend" rifles. His premise was that some people deliberately purchase items of great price, but, dubious value and then display these in an ostentatious manner in order to impress other, equally vulgar, people.

As Allen and a number of others have endeavoured to make clear, the extraordinary utility and performance of the Echol's rifles makes them the antithesis of this social pathology. It can be further understood by considering the differences between a Hummer and a Unimog.

Thorstein Vleben, largely forgotten today other than by academics, understood emerging 20th century America very clearly, but, his theory is not relevant here.

Wow! Quite a contrast in opinions here. Im seeing a couple schools of thought at work here but Ill tell you this, the more I learn about building rifle the more respect I have for those who do it.

D'arcy is a master at the trade and he has earned the position he now enjoys. I have nothing but respect for his work and I hope X-bar continues to grace us with his experiences as an apprentice.

Allen,

That may be the best post Ive ever seen you make. Well done.. There are many of us who will never, ever, be able to enjoy the positive aspects of a rifle built with perfection as the goal, but that doesnt mean that we cant appreciate the details about the process or the outcome.

There is however one caveat about your post that is not hard to reckognize and does present room for further debate, that is the fact that a very small percentage of hunting rifles are relied upon to protect the users life. As you said, a guy can have a very well built rifle for roughly $2500.00 give or take which is a long way from a legend.

That being said, I would still rather drive a Mercedes than a Volkswagen..

Very interesting thread..

And yet in all my experience with cheap, shitty, bolt action hunting rifles...they've all seemed many times more reliable for function than (in my admittedly very limited experience) Marine Corps issue M-16's. And the odds of the shooter actually fending for his life with one vs. the other? Yeah, it kind of puts a different perspective on things.

Don't get me wrong, I wish I could spend the money to buy an Echols rifle. I'm sure I would love it as much as other owners do. But I can't. I admire the Ferarris I see at the racetrack more than words can describe. I'll never be able to own one. So I'll just have to be satisfied passing them in my Camaro. It'll never be as nice, but it can be made to get around the track just as fast.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
...In fairness to what Jordan is saying, the question should be, "Can you get a good custom rifle for $2500"? And the answer to that question is "yes".

No doubt at all about that.

quote:

...Ask you favorite builder of 'beanfield rifles' about his training and background sometime, or about any of the other features I'll touch on in this thread. The answers will be telling.........

Using belk to teach anyone anything about rifles is about the same as having clinton teach an ethics class. Most of the true "Beanfield Rifle Masters" are Champions sharing their exquisit skill.

It is indeed interesting that none of the Championship "Beanfield Rifle Masters" made "The(Holy Grail of Rifle Craftsmen) List". Of course, Accuracy just isn't all that important in some circles.

quote:

... BALANCE is a sometimes forgotten and misunderstood concept, but it's vital to the actual utility of the rifle. The 'benchrest' guys are clueless on this aspect of things.

As if only the people of "The List" ever heard of "Balance".

quote:

... Most other guys semi-blueprint a factory receiver (if they blueprint it at all), screw in a barrel, use the factory magazine, factory potmetal bottometal, screw on factory (Leupold, Millet, Talley) scopemounts, retain the factory screws, and install a copy of a misshapen, committee-designed factory production stock and call it good.

If that is what a customer wants, I must admit I'm all for it. Of course, if it isn't provided by someone on "The List", it must be trash.

quote:

... Sometimes they test the rifle, sometimes they break-in the barrel and sometimes they don't. If it shoots good groups off the bench, that's good enough. They don't know how to build or evaluate a rifle any other way except to measure a cluster of holes on a piece of paper at 100 yds. Most of their clients don't either.....

Ah yes, if the aren't on "The List" then they probably didn't even fire the rifle. No need to since they don't know how to "evaluate a rifle" and as we all know, only the people on "The List" have that ability.

And while we are at it,might as well attempt to "put-down" anyone who did not choose someone from "The List" to purchase their rifle from. No doubt at all, that customer must not know a thing at all about firearms.

quote:

One time in B.C., my outfitter friend, the late, great Bob Fontana had me show my Echols-built 375 H&H to one of his other clients, who was shooting a custom, 'glass-stocked 300 Wby. on a Model 700 action, and this was a good rifle. Bob asked me to stuff the magazine full of shells and have other fellow try it. After he was done, has asked me why his riflemaker couldn't get his 300 Wby. to feed anywhere near as well, or to feel and balance even close to as well. My simple answer: "He probably doesn't know how to........."

No doubt the ONLY possible answer was whoever did the work was a complete idiot. Nothing else could possibly have happened to the rifle after it left the totally incompetent GunSmiths hands. Needs to be tared and feathered and run out of town. Of course, the same could be said for any of the GunSmiths not on "The List".

quote:

This stuff goes beyond holes on a piece of paper off the bench -- way beyond.

Always good to attempt to take a shot at Accurate Rifles. No doubt Accuracy is of no importance at all, just a total waste of time even wondering about it or going to the Range for any kind of practice. No need to since the folks on "The List" have done it.

quote:

If someone is willing to spend $2500 but no more for a good custom rifle, but not the price of and Echols, that's great, and I don't blame them.

Of course not, after saying they would be complete idiots for buying anything from anyone not on "The List", it is only fitting to come back and say it is now OK to buy from GunSmiths that really don't know what they are doing AT ALL. That certainly makes up for all the combined attempted put-downs.
---

But it is a complete lack of understanding, and shows a genuine lack of familiarity with the product to say that anyone not on "The List" can't possibly provide a rifle with BETTER Accuracy, with fine Balance, with a perfectly Blue Printed action, with any metal you desire including custom Rings and Bases, with an excellent well-fitting stock, and the entire rifle made to "your" desires using components and levels of refinement that are "of your choice".

quote:

Originally posted by Jordan:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
There is a difference between designing your own custom rifle and farming the machine work out, vs having a hunter/gunsmith build the absolute best hunting rifle he can based on his decades of hunting experience as well as that of all his clients.

What is the difference? How is the Echol's rifle superior and is it that much better [$5,000-8,000.00 worth] than a rifle comprised of identical components costing say, $2500.00?

RELIABILITY. There are lots of nice looking custom rifles out there that do not work worth a crap in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
A guy making $75,000 a year working 40hrs a week is bringing home almost $37 an hour. I've known guys making well into six figures complain about a gunsmith charging $20 per hour for his labor not including the cost of all his tools machinery etc. Why shouldn't a highly skilled professional gunsmith at the top of his profession be able to earn as much as a pretty average corporate goon?

I think gunsmiths are way underpaid,and I have complained to some of them that they do not charge enough and that they need to adjust their invoices upward. What hurts is a guy who charges $45 per hour to bugger up the action screws on a rifle!

Allen

I will readily say that it matters little what I, or anyone else for that matter, think of an Echols rifle because he obviously is doing something right or his backlog would not be so large. Without a doubt enough people believe them to be sufficient value for the money spent and that's all that really matters. He must have as they say "Come up with a better mousetrap" and I certainly do not fault him for that. Bottom line, they are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Before you take your leave of these forums for awile though, a question has come up in my mind that I know with your vast hunting experience you can answer truthfully better than most. In all your hunting what do most of the guides or P.H.s carry for rifles? I am more curious here than anything and have no other reason in mind when I ask. Alaska's Phil Shoemaker's rifle has been written about but I really can't say I have read about a lot of others who depend on a rifle to possibly save their own or the lives of people they are guiding. I would appreciate your input oin this.

Many thanks

Hot Core, I have never seen someone take something so well written and pull it that far out of context. Congratulations. You're eigther extremely cunning or extremely stupid.

One comment about Jack Belk, ethics aside. He could be considered one of the greatest metalsmiths to ever work in the trade.

Chuck

HC, instead of one of our usual shitslinging matches, I invite you to detail your actual "hands-on" experience with Belk, custom rifles and any and all hunting you may have done OUTSIDE of "the Carolinas".

For example, have you ever hunted in Africa (I haven't) or in Alaska (I 've been there but not hunted} or B.C. or the Yukon or N.W.T.???? Have you ever, even once, been within less than 100 yds. of a Grizzly and what rifle did you have available at that time????

Finally, since I have consistently replied to your questions on the forum and carefully detailed those experiences in my life that have influenced my opinions, why don't you give me the same courtesy that you ask for and provide this information. You once dismissed my conclusions by flatly stating that I had not shot anywhere close to the amount of game that you have and this is probably true as you are a hunter of vast experience, or so you appear to claim, so, please provide details..........

Hot Core, please don't twist what I'm saying here. I didn't say that a rifle built by anyone other than those I listed in that particular paragraph of my post was "trash", because I didn't mean it that way, and I think you know that. I did mean that I felt those other riflebuilders were the guys most closely doing the sort of work Echols is doing. As proof of what I'm saying, I also mentioned my old Glen Pearce Model 70 that was and is an extremely good rifle -- anything but trash. In other threads, I've not been bashful about mentioning Mark Penrod's fine work, Al & Roger Biesen's, Tom Burgess', Hill Country Rifles, or praising the fine work that Bill Leeper has done for Chuck. Lots of guys have shared some really great rifles with us here that I'd never want to disparage. But this particular thread is an analysis of what Echols is building, why and how he builds it, and what you actually get for your money from him. Your 'Belk/Clinton' comment is illogical and pure, unadulterated BS. It's akin to saying that since Clinton was president of the U.S. at one time that no citizen of the United states carries with him any sense of eithics. The way the last election went proves otherwise. Quite honestly, you're scratching, trying to assemble a sweater out of a few thin pieces of thread.....

------------------------

Idared, professional guides, in my experience, carry just about everything you can think of, depending upon what they can afford, but without exception they carry the most accurate and reliable rifle they can have put together, and if a rifle causes problems, they replace it. But here's a short list of rifles I've seen or have been familiar with of guys I've actually hunted with, with two exceptions that i'll note.

Jimmy Rosenbruch, in Alaska, carried a custom Model 700 416 Rem. Mag with a Swarovski scope (and a synthetic thumbhole stock), and he's used this rig for years.

John Sharp, in Zimbabwe, carried a custom Model 70 (push-feed) 458 Win. Mag. with the most incredible set of rugged open sights I've ever seen, plus a beautiful 1923 John Rigby 470 N.E. double.

Bob Fontana, in B.C., had a custom 308 Norma, plus a light Sako 375 H&H. The Sako was giving him feeding problems, so he replaced it with a fine Dakota 76 in 375 Dakota.

Shawn Kelly, in RSA, carried a Dakota 458 Win. Mag. (open sights only) with the best piece of wood I've ever seen on a Dakota.

Mike Curry, in RSA, carried a CZ 416 Rigby that appeared to be a straight factory rifle.

Marshall Smalling, In Tanzania, carried a custom 416 Rem. Mag. on a CZ Mauser action that Champlin Arms put together for him, and he swore by that rifle. His previous 416 Rem. Mag. was a Custom Shop Model 700, and this rifle smokestacked on him once and almost got him killed by a buffalo (REALLY frightening story) and he ditched it after than season.

Mark Sullivan has a slew of fine doubles, including a Marcel Thys & Sons 600 NE; an Army & Navy 450/400; a Charles Osborne & Co 577 NE that was owned by Deaf Banks and Owen Rutherford before him; a custom set of bolt guns by Robar Industries, including a Mauser in 416 Rem. Mag. and a pre-64 Model 70 375 H&H; he also has a custom 275 Rigby on a Mauser action from Sterling Davenport. He's also got a Davenport custom 300 H&H and a Davenport 500 Jeffery on a Mauser action. He's using, I think, a William Evans 500 NE this season, and I'll be hunting with Mark in October, so we'll see what he actually has in-hand then. Of the professional guides I know well, Sullivan is the finest, surest, and FASTEST off-hand shot there is. He has no equal in this department, and he can get a fast, precise shot off -- plus a follow-up -- while most others guys are still thinking about it. By the way, that 577 double of his is my favorite rifle that he owns. It's superbly balanced and points incredibly well, plus I can really hit with it. That 600 is too much gun for a mere mortal like me, although the 577 is no popgun, either! But the 600 is HEAVY and kicks like a bay mule -- a whole 'nother critter!

John Oothsuwiezen (sic) of Zimbabwe and Tanzania carries a Echols 'Legend' in 458 Lott, and he has for several years. Open-sights only. I haven't hunted with John myself, but I'd like to.

Kim Bonnett, co-owner of Bucks & Bulls (UT), carries an Echols 'Legend' in 7mm Rem. Mag. which is an incredible tackdriver from what I hear.

Kirk Kelso, of Pusch Ridge Outfitters, carried a David Miller Co. 'Marksman' in 300 Wby. for years. He went through four barrels on that rifle, and believe you me, Kirk can SHOOT. Of the professional guides I know, Kelso simply has no equal as a precision, long-range marksman under real-world field conditions, and he can spot game better than any other guide I've ever hunted with, period. He has been gifted! Kirk currently carries an Echols 'Legend Long-Range' in 300 Wby., and he gets 1/4" groups out of this rifle. Kirk is just one fantastic hunter, and he can cut it anywhere in the world.

I know that Phil Shoemaker has been carrying an Echols 'Legend' 458 Lott recently, but I don't know if he actually owns that rifle himself. Phil's another guy I haven't hunted with, but I'd surely like to!

You'd be surprised at the number of guides who don't carry rifles with clients, a practice which I do NOT personally agree with. Howard Knutsen (sic), in Alaska, didn't carry one (but I think he hunted with a Browning Safari 300 H&H), and Steven Tors, in Namibia, didn't carry one, either.

One time with Steve, who is a fabulous PH, (and son of T.V. producer Ivan Tors) I shot a gemsbok at over 400 yds. from our position on top of a cliff with my Echols 300 Win. It was really windy, and I hit him a bit too far back. He wobbled off and collapsed in some thornbush. We watched him for a while with the binoculars, and it looked like he was down to stay. We hiked back to the rig, drove around the mountain to where he was laying, and Steve threw a couple of rocks and nudged him with a stick. He appeared to be dead, but then he suddenly got up and charged straight at ME! So I shot him right at the point where neck meets chest and he collapsed, some ten feet away while Steve watched. Steve's comment: "I've never had a 'dead' gemsbok charge a client before!"

Yeah!!!!!!!

AD

What is the bolt handle treatment on an Echols Legend Rifle?

On most of them, he retains the factory handle and knob. That's what I have on mine, because it's functional and the operation is second-nature to me. On others, at extra cost, he'll install a new handle with hand-checkered panels, or at least he has.

AD

He will also install one that is sans knurling or checkering. A route I think I would go.

Chuck

I asked that question becasue it is my understanding that the 70 handle is soldered on, and therefore probably more susceptible to coming off than one that is either welded on or pinned somehow.

Perhaps on the dangerous game rifles he pins them on or welds them, or something?

Allen, just curious as to why you state that Thomas Burgess's bottom metal is the "best in the world". It may be. I have never examined one out of a rifle. I have owned Blackburn and they are pretty darn good, and look good too.
Does anyone have a photo of a Burgess bottom metal out of a stock?

22WRF, if you don't have one get a copy of Stuart Otteson's book, "The Bolt Action". It's just a fabulous reference. In the chapter on the post-64 Model 70, Otteson demonstrates and describes the fabrication and attachment of the bolt handle, which is the same design exactly as the current one. It's so strong and precise that you should never, ever have one come off unless the factory screwed up very, very badly, which is always possible, I guess. John Wooters once stated that "you'd have to resemble that legendary gorilla" to get this particular handle to detach. This handle is NOT simply laid on and soldered, as is the anemic handle on the Model 700 -- it's not even remotely similar. But it's another one of those areas that Echols goes over, checks for alignment, and corrects if necessary.

I've legitimately never heard of one of these coming off on anyone, ever.............

Tom's bottommetal is the most finely-detailed, best-shaped, and most precisely built, at least in my opinion. It's extrmely graceful and avoids the sort of exaggerated egg shape and front taper of the Blackburn. It looks much more balanced.

AD

My favorite Echols 'Legend' in 300 Win. Mag. The targets represent a variety of loads, all with premium hunting bullet handloads, except for one target fired with 180 Hornady's. All are five-shot groups, not three. It particularly loves 180 gr. Nosler Partitions.

This rifle feature's D'Arcy's scopemounts, Leica 3.5-10X scope, plus Tom Burgess bottommetal, Echol's own McMillan stock, 24" Kreiger bbl, built-up and checkered bolt release. I've taken scores of big game animals in several states and foreign countries with this rifle (including the charging gemsbok!), and I'll be taking it to Tanzania this season as well, plus Texas, etc.

This is the best 300 Win. Mag. I've ever owned, and if I ever manage to shoot the barrel out, I'll have D'Arcy rebarrel it.

AD

Pretty nice groups Allen.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
HC, instead of one of our usual shitslinging matches, I invite you to detail your actual "hands-on" experience with Belk,

First off, I'm not being critical of his metal filing. Haven't seen any of it that I can remember and have no desire to. You may not be aware that belk was only too happy to testify in Law suits against "various" Firearm manufacturers. The seriously anti-gun CBS would always go to belk for his "expert opinion" and didn't happen to mention he was participating against the Manufacturers.

Back a few years ago belk posted on HuntAmerica and if you simply had any experience at all with a rifle, you knew he was saying things that just were not true. I really don't remember all the issues. I remember just a couple right now, Belted Cases - impossible to make accurate and Triggers should always be "oiled". And he tried to pull a fast one concerning the "edge" of sears breaking off in a discussion concerning bolt action rifles. There is a specific Term for that which I can't remember at the moment, but it strickly deals with damage created to automatic firearm sears. And on and on.

quote:

custom rifles and any and all hunting you may have done OUTSIDE of "the Carolinas".

For example, have you ever hunted in Africa (I haven't) or in Alaska (I 've been there but not hunted} or B.C. or the Yukon or N.W.T.???? Have you ever, even once, been within less than 100 yds. of a Grizzly and what rifle did you have available at that time????

Finally, since I have consistently replied to your questions on the forum and carefully detailed those experiences in my life that have influenced my opinions, why don't you give me the same courtesy that you ask for and provide this information. You once dismissed my conclusions by flatly stating that I had not shot anywhere close to the amount of game that you have and this is probably true as you are a hunter of vast experience, or so you appear to claim, so, please provide details..........

I'll respectfully decline your request since it would skew the thread and since I've answered it for you on at least two occasions. And I've mentioned that to you on 5-6 other occassions.

I do not believe my first post in this thread mentioned you, nor do I choose to get into any arguments "with you".

Best of luck to you.
---

I do find it interesting that ad is now claiming I'm "skewing his post" when I pulled direct quotes from his post. I'm not real sure how pulling direct quotes and commenting on them, skewed his meaning.

Thanks Allen. That was a good cross section of men and their rifles. I appreciate you candid reply.

Gentlemen,
Please bear with me for a few paragraphs. At the end I believe you will understand my take on Mr. Echols work and its worth.

I had hoped that my boys would follow me into my second profession, medicine, but they followed me into my first, soldiering. My oldest works for an alphabet agency now where he does more thinking than shooting. My youngest thinks about what is the best way to carry his frag grenades, flares, three extra pistol magazines, six extra 30 round M-4 magazines, water bladder, knife, bug out sack, aid kit, etc.

He rotates through the ashtray or the 'stans every other year for a year. He is headed over again in two months. He laughs when people thank him for making a sacrifice of time and comfort for us back here in fat city. He loves being in Special Forces now.

Anyway, between every deployment I completely rebuild his M-4 upper and stock. He completely replaces all the springs and pins in his lower before shipping out. During the rebuild I incorporate anything new that has been developed that works better than before, regardless of cost. This time around we gave his whole upper away and I started from scratch. You can order a complete AR-15 from the big name makers for $700.00. Just this upper will cost $1,100.00. Next is the suppressor for $1,000.00 (including the Treasury stamp). The new stock is $268.00. Optics and mounts add another $900.00. Why do we throw $3,300.00 into a battle carbine, and a couple days for me to tweak it before he tweaks it for another couple days? Because we end up with a carbine that won't ever short stroke/double feed, that shoots 1/2" groups with the M262 M1 ammunition that he uses, and handles just right for him. It took us three different barrel contours/lengths to find one that lines up for him without him thinking about it. Why? Because there are a number terrorists that won't be bothering anyone anymore, and he is alive.

Chris' new body armor (Dragon Skin, by Pinnacle) will cost us $5,000.00. Why is it so expensive? Because it will and has stopped 129 grain AP AK rounds from so much as bruising the wearer. I will co-sign a loan for him for his half of the bill. We just bought him a complete set of armor two years ago for $1,500.00. It is still good, and will be for several more years, but it will sit in the closet for now.

Why all this fuss and chasing the impossibility of perfection? When my boy goes into battle he will be as well armed and as well armored as is humanly possible in late 2005. When I go over to do my doctoring stints we will try to alternate deployments so I can wear and carry the good stuff. And, surgical tools and gauze are a lot lighter than frags and radios (okay, maybe one frag for fishing).

I believe that Mr. Echols has that same drive in a different venue. He is addicted to chasing perfection as is Mr Burgess. That may be why D'Arcy has Tom for his mentor.

Down the road a bit, when Chris has some more rank, and the military kicks me out for the last time we will likely each get a Legend and do some more hunting. We know we won't have to do anything with those rifles except clean, load and shoot. Unlike the frou frou rifles with Bulimo engraving (although I do like the engraved girls with the big tits and the bigger pouts) the Echols rifle is pure function.

Fortunately my daughter went into the flying game. Modifying an A-10 is definitely out of my budget. Those seem to work ok anyways.

lawndart

That's nice Allen.

I have never seen an Echols Legend and wouldn't know one from a hole in the wall, I have also no idea who Echols is except from reading about him here and in some magazines.

If gunsmiths like Mr.Echols commands and recieves the prices jordan is talking about then he is worth every penny. In my experience nobody gets away for very long overpricing his abilities especially in custom gun work. I can only assume that Mr.Echols was at one time alot more affordable than he is today. How much does it cost to get things just right!
bigbull

I just love those scope mounts.

In my opinion what separates Echols (and obviously some others)from the rest of the pack is his very strong accuracy base in combination with the hunting rifle.

His combination of scope mounts and the use of the current M70 action tells you this bloke has both bases covered and in addition is not swayed by nostalgia.

His scope mounts also tell you that he wants to take things to the N th degree.

He also has a third component and that is attracting customers who will pay to have a rifle taken to the N th degree.

In a nutshell if you approach the Echols rifle from 6 different angles it will come up tops no matter what the criteria.

There are certainly rifles that beat an Echols in indivdual areas. A flashed up Weatherby is a much bigger "jaw dropper" and will cost more. The H&H and Purdey have their thing and for cost make an Echols look like a Howa

But when you consider the whole package and especially function and accuracy the Echols is at the top of the tree.

It is probably true that you complete a similar rifle at a lesser price but that lesser price might come at "a price". An example of that in action is comparing HS Precision to a Weatherby with glass stock, Kreiger cut rifle barrel etc via their Custom Shop. The Wby costs quite a bit more but I can tell you dealing with both companies is a reflection of the price difference. And if anyone doubts that then they should check with the Australian agent for Wby and HS Precision as the same company imports both rifles.

The only short fall I can see with the Echols Legend is for someone who likes calibres based on either the 378 or Rigby case.

Mike

Bigbull, some custom rifles are expensive, and they never do work right and are never made right by the gunmaker. This is much more common than you might think. How some of this expensive junk gets sent out to trusting clients is beyond me, but it happens. I could write a long magazine article sighting examples that I've experienced myself, as have some of my friends. Here's one example:

Some eleven years ago, I hired a recommended craftsman, a "dangerous game rifles specialist", to build a custom 416 Rem. Mag. on a Model 70 action. I visited his shop, looked over completed rifles, picked out wood, etc. He told me to send him a Model 70 Classic 375 H&H as the foundation. I asked about getting one in 416 Rem. Mag., but he said one in 375 H&H was good enough..........

In due course, the completed rifle arrived, and at first glance it looked very pretty. But I couldn't help but notice that the open sights were canted on the barrel. Then I opened the action and noticed that he had extended the magazine box via cutting and welding (and guesswork), but used the same magazine follower, and there has about a half-inch gap between the front of the follower and the front of the box, which I knew straight-away would create problems. So I stuffed the magazine full, cycled the action, and that SOB wouldn't feed worth shinola. I took a Model 70 416 follower out of my friend's factory M70 416 to test, and this change helped, but it still didn't feed nearly well enough for Africa, and I had a 21-day safari less than six months away.

So I called the gunmaker, complained loud and long, and he told me to send him the rifle. When I received it back, it fed even WORSE than before, the open sights were still canted, only this time some of the screws were buggered. Totally enraged, I decided to get going on another rifle and sort out the situation with this very pretty piece of junk after I got back from Africa.

So I found a Model 70 Classic in 458 Win. Mag. and took it to a very good local gunsmith to rebuild into a real-world DG rifle. This time I had what I thought was a winner, and this 458 fed perfectly, and shot extremely well. I put 260 rounds though it at the range without a hitch before my safari. It sounds like all should have worked out just fine, and it sort of did -- up to a point. In Africa, that 458 hammered a zebra, a buffalo, and a hippo. But after that hippo hit the ground, I worked the bolt hard and fast for a reload -- and the rifle went off! It slam-fired because my good riflesmith back home set the triggerpull too light. It worked great at the range, but when worked fast during an in-your-face DG situation, its true nature managed to reveal itself, and we got it to slam-fire twice more!!

This kind of BS, amature-built junk (the 416) would NEVER get let out of Echols' shop, ever, nor would a rifle be let out with a too-light trigger that could cause problems. You talk about price, well hey, baby, let's just make a habit of stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime why don't we? What's your safety and the value of your hunting investment worth, anyway? You can purchase health and life insurance policies alright, but if a buffalo catches up to you because you rifle mucks up at high-noon, you'll STILL be crippled or maimed or dead! Just ask Keith Atcheson's wife, who was beat-up and hospitalized by a buffalo last year if that is not all too true. Your money or your life, take your pick! Not to mention the fact that many hunting trips are increasingly EXPENSIVE (price 21 days in Tanzania, for example!). Why take a rifle that isn't 100%? Reverse-economy simply doesn't make sense.........

Yesterday my wife and I met up with Steve, who is one of our members here at AR and just a wonderful guy and dedicated hunter who we really enjoy and respect. This was at a Portland SCI chapter meeting and BBQ. Steve pointed out to me one of our chapter members who was badly beaten up by a buffalo just five years ago and who struggled with recovery for a long time, and right away I thought of my friend Bob Fontana who was killed by a buffalo just last year. These were not rifle-related episodes, but nevertheless, it is prudent to do everything possible to ensure that the rifle you carry is 100% reliable, and I mean ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT! It's the greatest single piece of life insurance you can possibly take out, and it's a 'policy' that you only have to purchase ONE time!

My current 416 Rem. Mag. is Echols-built and feeds so perfectly (solids, softs -- you name it) that you might as well be working the action empty, plus it SHOOTS, far better than you'd think a 416 could. What price should be set on that kind of insurance? There are certain things in this world that transend price, and giving your business to some good ol' boy gunsmith near home, patronizing the 'Mickey Mouse Club', thus purchasing because you saw it on the Disney Channel or the ODL Network where it was endorsed by a celebrity hunter, a special closeout at Sportsman's Warehouse, or because the cosmetically-gratifying work resembles that of a circa 1925 Rigby doesn't necessarily cut it. No matter what, the proof will be in the performance.

I learned this the hard way: When it comes to real-use hunting rifles, appearances can be totally deceiving. Pretty is as pretty DOES, every time.........

AD

LawnDart

Thank you for what you do for our country, and thank you to your sons and daughters for what they do for our country. I am a bit puzzled. I was under the impression that the government suppled equipment to those who serve. At least they supplied me when I served.


Allen

Great story. Perhaps, in addition to your current business, you might write a few magazine articles. However I wish you would name some of these ne'er-do-well smiths that you have dealth with.

22WRF, I might write some magazine stuff after our youngest girl is out of high school and into a university -- one more year to go, and her life is BUSY! I'd rather write freelance hunting articles with gun stuff carefully inserted, rather than straight gun articles. It seems as though you have to tell too many half-truths and make too many advertisers happy with the guns stuff to suit me. Some of these writers give off the impression that they've never met a gun, scope, bullet, or cartridge they didn't like..............

I'd rather just talk about good riflemakers who I know do the job right, rather than mention the names of the turkeys. Happily, there are a lot of good riflemakers out there. As it says in the Bible, "You shall know them by their works"....

AD

I was a little too far behind the learning curve when I ordered a 458 Lott from the Winchester Custom shop. I tried to cancel the order, but it was going to put the gunshop in a bad position and I didn't want to do that because I told them to order it.

In the mean time, I had been talking to D'Arcy Echols about building a Legend for me. I would have gone through with it, but I couldn't cancel my other order. Sure enough, the Custom Shop Lott came in and it had some serious issues. One of them was feeding.

A couple of trips back to Winchester and they did get everything sorted out. The rifle feeds very well and shoots like a dream. Well....a disturbing dream. Just how good of a dream could shooting a Lott really be? Get real.

During this process I had the opportunity to finally meet D'Arcy in person at the Dallas Safari show. He was incredibly patient and acted like I was the only person in the entire building. He let me coon finger his rifles and I was naturally awe struck.

As far as how much he charges for his work, let me make a few comments. I've been in financial services for the last two decades. I know as well as anyone that you cannot tell how much money a person has by their appearance. But I definately get the impression that D'Arcy isn't doing it to get filthy, nasty wealthy. In fact, every gunsmith I know is just a narrow measure from broke.

His rifles cost more than others, but he is also quite a bit cheaper than a few. Any way you slice it, the rifle has always turned out the be the LEAST expensive part of my hunting equation. Heck, my hippo mount nearly cost as much as an Echols Legend!

Longbob:

I can understand how mounting a hippo would be expensive, but how did you get it to hold still?