I've gone back and read the threads about barrel manufacturing and forming rifling in the barrel. I understand the basics and even some of the finer detail. I just couldn't find the answer to my question.

Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?

I have the opportunity to purchase a CZ550 American. I handled a Rem 700 CDL in same. I liked the CZ550's feel...even though the LOP was the same the Rem felt short. After handling it I was impressed....from the walnut, the machine cut checkering to the feel of the rifle. I have not been able to find anything on this make of rifle comparing accuracy to others or by itself other than the cursory magazine article. I know it has a hammer forged barrel. For the price I could have it sent out and rebarreled with a button cut or cut rifled barrel and want to know if I would be ahed of the game? Are we talking an inch at 250 yards or INCHES at 200 yards. I KNOW...the cursory answer is each rifle has its own personality. But for the price I can't go wrong. How are the CZ550 actions comparitively?

I have a 9.3X62MM CZ. I think it is a well made rifle and it shoot great! When I was starting my 404 Jeffery projects (a left and a right handed rifle) if CZ had made a left haned model, my rifles would have been made on thier actions.

Those two rifles sport Lothar-Walther .423 Magnum Sporter contoured barrels. They are both very accurate. I see nothing wrong with button cut (broached) barrels.

While searching some material on barrels, I came across this very good explaination of the methods used to make barrels.

Art and Science of Barrel Making

assuming they are properly done, I seriously doubt that there is any real difference in accuracy of any of them.

If there was, we'd see everyone moving that direction, and we don't.

quote:

Originally posted by RenegadeRN:
Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?

Hammer forging requires very expensive tooling, but produces barrels at very low unit cost. Consequently, it is a process used by high volume operators - such as major rifle manufacurers. In addition, you can form the chamber and the bore in one step. I.e. this is the method of choice if you want to to produce barrels at $10 a piece (I made that particular number up, but it is probably not far off), and are not going to bother with devoting much time to each barrel - in particular in the finishing stage.

Because of the compression of the material introduced by the hammer forging process, these barrels can actually be pretty hard and long lived, but they tend not to be finished very well, and therefore commonly foul quite a bit.

Either buttoned or cut rifling lends itself to producing lower quantities. These methods are therefore adapted by custom barrel makers. They can afford to pay real attention to each barrel - stress relieve, air gauge dimension, lap for perfect finish etc etc. This is the option if you want the best. It is a joy to clean a well made custom barrel - compared to the run-of-the-mill factory tube.

However, don't get the impression that there is an equation "hammer forged" = "bad or inaccurate", that does not have to be. Some the most accurate factory rifles ever made (Sako's single shot PPCs) had hammer forged barrels and routinely deliver accuracy that wins prices in "factory class" BR. The barrels of mine don't even foul that much - in particular considering they are CM.

- mike

Hello, all.

Just happened to be crusing CZ-USA's site yesterday. they somewhere state that their barrels are hammer-forged and lapped.

My only recent experience with their stuff was a CZ453 Varmint in .17HMR. I cleaned the barrel before shooting (solvent, patches, and brush only, no JB) and it was as smooth as the proverbial baby's bottom.

First trip to the range - shoot 1 and clean with Butch's - no copper. Shoot 1 and clean - no copper. Gave up trying to find copper after the third try and shot a 1/2"-5 shot group @100y., Hornady 17gr. BT.

Apparently the way they formed (and lapped) the throat in this tiny barrel left no roughness worth breaking in.

Don't know if all their barrels are like this but it might be worth a try...

I would expect the CZ to shoot significantly better than any Remington made since about '95.

As for which barrel manufacturing is "best" (there is no such thing as "best") - what i would be concerend with is how it was fit and chambered. If the exact same care went into manufacturing a forged, buttoned, or cut barrel blank, then look to the fitting and chambering methods and precision to determine actual accuracy.

quote:

Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?

No. When hammer-forging was first introduced, it appears that some makers had trouble with internal bore dimension uniformity, and this naturally had some adverse effect on accuracy. But from what I have seen, this problem has been largely overcome. I think that barrels rifled by the various methods in use today have an equal chance at being accurate, if they are all made with equal care.

I own two CZ's - a 527 in 7.62X39mm and a 550 in .416 Rigby. I would put the accuracy of these two up against any factory-made production rifle available anywhere in the world today. A CZ is one of the VERY LAST makes I would rebarrel before the original barrel is shot out!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I see nothing wrong with button cut (broached) barrels.

Hmmmm Rusty, Button rifling is not cut, the rifling is made by the button pressing the grooves in to the bore.

Yes, pressed is a better term. I agree.

Some of the most accurate barrels I have ever fired have been hammer forged.
Steyr, and Blaser are the first 2 that come to mind.
Those 2 also seem to have a very long life.

Among the High Power Rifle crowd, most like cut rifled barrels, they seem to last a little longer.

If I was building a custom rifle I would go with cut rifling from one of the well known makers.

I have also shot several Shilen bbl that were very accurate.

The main thing is, go with a good quality, ie known company, and do not skimp on the $$$ spent on the barrel.

"Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?"

The answer to your question is "statistical probability" and the type of manufacturing. Cut rifling has the highest probability of consistently producing best quality barrel, Button rifled barrel is second to cut because of the manufacturing process and spring back and barrel stresses. Hammer forging is a massive operation only available to large companies and has the least probability compared to Cut and Button.

WOW.. talk about axis of refences in intersection..
if we assume that a barrel maker uses a SINGLE technique..

if ABC barrel maker makes lemons and jewels and uses process 1
and XYZ barrel maker makes lemons and jewels and uses process 2

and mno barrel maker makes lemons and jewels and uses process 3

we can only determine that all styles make lemons and jewels...

no one maker or technique can stand up and say "i have the secret to make ALL my barrels shoot 1 hole groups"....

which means that there is good and bad in all styles.

jeffe

i believe that my best have been cut, 2nd broached and hammer forged come in a far dead last. i can't remember ever having a really top grade hammer forged barrel.

Gentleman ; I believe what your asking is not relevant to accuracy in either Hammer Forged , cut or button rifled barrels .

The most accurate barrels are one without chatter marks in the bore .

I my self prefer Button rifled barrels .

It's the process in which button cutters are pulled through the bore . Some barrel manufactures use 2-5 buttons . The cutters are pulled in a single pass . There for unnecessary to repeat the cutting process or metal removal process . Kind of like cleaning from the chamber too the muzzle , never back and forth .

The key to any of these methods is NEW or Extremely Sharp tight tolerance cutters .

They are never used on just one barrel , so which of the barrels did your gun receive # 6 or 68 ?. A numerical guess .

What method did Mauser have available to them way back ?. They would have switched to button rifling in a heart beat had it been available .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i can't remember ever having a really top grade hammer forged barrel.

Never owned a M-70?

Them B.R.guy's seem to shoot ok with them
button rifled barrels.
Jon D.

I hadn't meant to open a can of proverbial worms. LOL! I'm learning that with this crowd there seems to be certain subjects that come up that are passionate with everyone. I appreciate everyone's input. This really adds to my knowledge base. I can see that like most everything in life it isn't quite as black and white as I would like and resides on a continuum. There will be outstanding in all forms, good in all forms and poor in all forms. Much like cars or trucks. I just wanted to thank you for your input.

When I think of this topic I think of it in the terms of if I were buying a barrel for a project. I don't think I would be searching out a factory hammer forged barrel for a Mod 70 project. I would be looking at a Lilja, Kreiger, etc. I'm looking for something that will give me the best odds of a good barrel and if I get a Lilja that won't shoot I know I'll be taken care of.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i believe that my best have been cut, 2nd broached and hammer forged come in a far dead last. i can't remember ever having a really top grade hammer forged barrel.

Broaching is another type of cut rifling, it is not button rifling. A broach is a tapered cutting tool (usually serrated) that is dragged over/through the material and gradually cuts deeper and deeper until it reaches the end of of the taper with a full depth cut.

Button rifling is pulling a carbide button through a tube in a spiral that presses the grooves into the tube. There is no cutting in button rifling.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i can't remember ever having a really top grade hammer forged barrel.

Never owned a M-70?

He said "top grade"

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i can't remember ever having a really top grade hammer forged barrel.

Never owned a M-70?

He said "top grade"

I second the opinion of Dempsey. If it's a Full on Quality barrel one seeks then purchase an after market quality barrel . My vote Lilja !.

As I'm unfamiliar with Walther Lothar barrels , although I've heard very good things about them .

Pulling carbide buttons is correct as there can be several on in successive sizes . I believe it gives a superior removal of material as apposed broaching . IMO . Which is worth $ 0.0025 . How ever I have spoke to several top notch machinist who seem to agree if all else is equal it's their choice , even the old school cutter boys !. my button rifled barrels are more accurate than any of my others . So I'm sticking with it until shit hits the fan .

Shoot Straight Know Your target . ...

Near as I can tell by using the SWAG method (Scientific Wild Ass Guess), at least 90% of folks have two things they absolutely take on faith:

1. Their view of religion, and which if any is the best for the world. And,

2. By whom, and how, the best barrels are made.

I fall into the remaining 10%, who just as ardently believe: "It is not the tools or methods that make the critical difference in barrels. It is the craftsman."

quote:

I fall into the remaining 10%, who just as ardently believe: "It is not the tools or methods that make the critical difference in barrels. It is the craftsman."

Agreed which is why I rule out mass produced hammer forged barrels to be in the same class as a good buttoned or cut rifled barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by RenegadeRN:


I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?
But for the price I can't go wrong. How are the CZ550 actions comparitively?

Most everyone seemed to get off the track the way I read the question.

RenegadeRN, I never thought I'd be recomending a CZ, but if you've seen it, worked the action, and liked it, grab it.
They have a rep for amazing out of the box accuracy and with the right loads should shoot under MOA easily. The type of barrel doesn't matter for good hunting accuracy.

What I don't like about CZ's is the barrel MAY need minor work like lapping or re-crowning, etc. just through lack of quality control. Probably not.

The action MAY be rough and scratchy which won't affect accuracy and can be smoothed with care or wear.

The barrel may not line up too well to a scope, but that can be got around with shim type mounts etc.

The safety may be back to front, so watch out for AD's.

A BIG (over .375) cal may tend to split the stock and MAY not feed perfectly.

The wood may not be centered to the barrel.

All in all it should shoot better than you can and be a basis for improvement, but this should NOT be for another barrel.

(I read all this somewhere)

quote:

Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?

No

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:

quote:

Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?

No

+1

I believe a craftsman equally skilled at making forged barrels can do just as good a job as a skillful worker using any other method.

Remington is well known for good barrels among factory products. It took them about 10 years to really learn to do hammer forging just right, but they learned. Then Winchester went through the same learning curve. Ditto several other manufacturers.

I own custom cut rifle, custom button and factory hammer (blaser, sako and remington)

Can't tell the difference in accuracy, the factorys for some reason seem to foul less, the remington stainless basicaly doesn't copper foul...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
I second the opinion of Dempsey. If it's a Full on Quality barrel one seeks then purchase an after market quality barrel . My vote Lilja !.

As I'm unfamiliar with Walther Lothar barrels , although I've heard very good things about them .

Pulling carbide buttons is correct... I believe it gives a superior removal of material
Shoot Straight Know Your target . ...

IF by "pulling carbide buttons" you are describing the button-rifling process, there is NO REMOVAL of material from the inside of the bore at all-the grooves are embossed (NOT CUT!!) into the steel as the button goes down the bore.

The steel that occupied the space now constituting the grooves is displaced into the surrounding material, usually giving a smooth, ironed surface to the bottom and sides of the grooves. The lands may also be burnished as well by this process, depending on the dimensions of the button and the bore prior to the passage of the button.....

My best BR barrels have been button rifled but I think the best cut barrels are at least as good (Krieger).
I recently fitted two barrels to one of my own rifles. One was a button rifled barrel ( a 1970's vintage Clyde Hart barrel) the other was hammer forged (Swiss Arms). Both were very nice barrels and the Swiss barrel was possibly the straightest barrel I have ever fitted. The chamber was forged as part of the barrel and I elected to use this chamber. The chamber also was straight with no measurable eccentricity. We shall see how it shoots.
The Hart barrel was also very straight but there was a barely perceptible "wobble" about 8 inches back from the muzzle end. Maybe 3 or 4 thousandths.
In contrast, a Lilga barrel I fitted a while back was crooked enough it really complicated the chambering operation and added a good half hour to my time.
A Winchester match-grade barrel I fitted about 27 years ago was a beautiful barrel and it was hammer forged. On the other hand, some of the worst barrels I've seen were also hammer forged (Remington and Ferlach. Some of the Ferlach barrels were truly grotesque).
Bottom line? From a hunting rifle standpoint (lat's assume a 1moa requirement), it makes no difference whatsoever. It often doesn't take much of a barrel to shoot 1 moa. Regards, Bill.

RenegadeRN: Your question seems to have generated two trains of thought here, one about which method is the best and to a far lesser degree, how well CZs shoot. Most of the fellows have dogged the barrel-making processes fairly well. I will address the accuracy of the CZ 550. My 7x57mm with my handloads will print honest to goodness sub half inch groups at 100 yards. It is a CZ 550 American. I have experience with a few other CZs. My brother's CZ 550 Full Stock and his friend's rifle, an exact copy, are both in 7x57mm. Both shoot handloads into 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards with sickening regularity. My brother's CZ 550 American in 9.3x62 is also a sub-MOA rifle with factory loads. Each of these rifles, with the exception of the two full-stocks, were bought from different distributors in different parts of the United States, at different times of the year. All have been amazingly accurate. By far and away, the vast majority of the folks posting about the accuracy of the CZ rifles claim good to fantastic accuracy with them. Im certain there must be some CZ owners out there whose rifle accuracy suck, but they seldom speak out. Some hear someone else say the rifles are rough cycling and repeat it as a fact. Both my CZs, I also on a CZ 527 Lux/American in .223 Remington, were no better, or no worse, than Rugers, Winchesters, Remington, Savage and others. Maybe I was lucky. I know that now both are glass smooth and all it took was for me to cycle the actions ... no big deal! If you like what you have picked up and shouldered then buy it. Tom Purdom

I can tell that barrel making and the rifling process is a fairly passionate subject with everyone. I expected much different answers than I got. So this is a learning experience in itself. I do honestly appreciate everyone's input.

And after reading these posts, it is apparently clear that the accuracy of all top barrels and barrel makers is more about the craftsman who fits and chambers the barrels. I'm thankful that you are all out there and I can come here and pick the brains of the best in the world. I wish I could see spend time with each of you, to learn, to see what you all talk about. I wish I could understand the "chatter" or poor rifling, how much a thousandths can or will not make that much a different,etc. I wish I had the talent you all have! If I draw it's stick figures. If I sing I break glass. If I play guitar I have the neighbors complain. LOL! SO I work as an RN. We all have our place in life. But there are just things in life I wished that I had that talent to do. You can have all the passion in the world....but true brilliance, true artisanship can only come from a few.

I shall settle it for everyone . A premium barrel manufacture is the first and foremost objective .

Without this critical choice no Craftsman can work their magic on your weapon .

So regardless of a Craftsman's skill a true and sharp cutter is at least as important as the person using it !.

With dull tools a craftsman is less than their whole sum !.

Barrel Barrel Barrel , then the person who you feel is most qualified to complete the project .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

My best shooting barrels have been hammer forged barrels.I really missed a Remington 308 barrel on a model 700 I had that would put 5 shots into one hole at 200yds week after week.I rebarrelled to a Krieger later and while doing so was told by my gunsmith that my whole action was crooked.When I got the rifle back I never came close to a 5 shot one hole group.I have a few rifles today and only one is a 200yd one holer and that's a factory Winchester that does it with TSX bullets.I would like to see how my new CZ does.I feel that Hammer forging produces extremely tight tolerances because the mandrels tolerances can be checked and then the bore shaped exactly on it,wheras the other methods lend themselves to screw ups.

quote:

Originally posted by RenegadeRN:
but true brilliance, true artisanship can only come from a few.

I think you may be more important and useful than any barrel maker, most of who only need to be, and are, mechine operators.

I've fired an accurate barrel that was reemed out from 308 to 408 and rifled by a home made cut rifle set up on a lathe. He was NOT a qualified gunsmith.

The "few thou. you mention need not make much difference, and it's all debatable.

A pro barrel maker that did my buttoned barrel has stated their may be a difference of a few thou due to "spring back" of the metal.

Another famous gunsmith here was making barrels that were another cal. smaller than the loaded bullet. A sort of swage as you fire type of thing. Apparently it worked well.

And as I understand chattering (which isn't very well) its just shuddering or such due to blunt tools, or too much cutting pressure, or whatever, which would leave rough marks in the bore.

Heck, don't ever praise a tradesman too much or their price goes up.

I agree that top quality after market button or cut rifled barrels made by the custom makers are extremely accurate, and to be preferred for bench rest, but for hunting, hammer forged barrels are just fine. As a matter of fact I have 2 sako TRGS in 30-378; one shoots sub half MOA all day, the other has given me several one hole groups.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i can't remember ever having a really top grade hammer forged barrel.

Steyr, FNs, Blazer, just to name a few.

Why do so many BR persons use Button Rifled instead of cut barrels now ?. There must be something to it other wise why use it .

As I said before as well as others the Craftsman is indeed a Large part of the process as well as their tools . Sharp chatter free bores tend to stay cleaner are more accurate regarless of methods used . Personally Buttoned Rifled barrels seem to do this more often than not .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Actually, DrK, the BR shooters have made the move toward cut rifling over the past 3 or 4 years. Many at our matches are using Krieger, Bartlein, Brux and RockCreek. There are still a lot of fine button rifled barrels being used. Such as Lilja, Spencer, Shilen, Broughton, Schneider, Hart and PacNor. No one, that I know or shoot BR with, is using a hammer forged barrel. I'm speaking of NBRSA and IBS Benchrest Matches, both group and score.

quote:

Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?

to the contrary.
perhaps BR shooters dont like hammerforged bbls'.
SO what.
Steyr
CZ
Tikka
Sako Blaser
all make hammer forged bbled HUNTING rifles.
check this out...
all the hammer forged BBl's remained intact while the remington and browning... well, you check it out.
http://www.testfakta.se/Article.aspx?a=16350