quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
Actually, DrK, the BR shooters have made the move toward cut rifling over the past 3 or 4 years. Many at our matches are using Krieger, Bartlein, Brux and RockCreek. There are still a lot of fine button rifled barrels being used. Such as Lilja, Spencer, Shilen, Broughton, Schneider, Hart and PacNor. No one, that I know or shoot BR with, is using a hammer forged barrel. I'm speaking of NBRSA and IBS Benchrest Matches, both group and score.

Sure.. but benchrest shooting won't take a "regular" barrel in the first place... 1 MOA, in BR, is a shotout piece of junk, while 1moa in a hunting rifle is pretty darn nice.

This is comparing apples to blue..

And, yeah, I haven't seen a single hammerforged barrel maker cater to the BR crowd... and the BR crowd bounces from button to cut to EDm to pantherpiss for bore cleaner.. those guys can SHOOT, oh yeah, but the hammer forged barrel makers aren't interested in the market.

jeffe

Camp Perry, Ohio Long Range Matches just recently completed and would make a wager that most of the Master and High Master shooters were using Krieger barrels. There are other fine barrels, no question, but Krieger pretty much rules the roost . Oh, and by the way, mentioning that BR shooters can SHOOT, well, yes they can, but do not take the bench away. Prone w/ sling and metalic sights at 8,9,and 1000 yards are good criteria for "good shooters." Kind of puts the human element back into the equation/score results. Go Krieger and go shoot, don't break it in, just simply shoot and clean it properly and the rifle will far outshoot most of us.

eddieharren ; jeffeosso ;Thanks for the info on BRS , as I don't shoot those as a religion .I do how ever appreciate the inside info .

I'm an all around shooter or consider myself as one . Standing off hand prone or kneeling or using a rest if it presents it's self . For max accuracy Bench and bagged .

I found it real difficult to carry the bags as well as the bench while hunting .

I always laugh when someone says their weapon or they shoot 1 hole groups at a 100 Yd. . Now I'm not saying it can't be done but in the real world I've seen so few it's not worth mentioning .
I'm not talking BRS or their Specialty weapons, I'm talking over the counter every day hunting military type of rifles .

Had a fellow who used to shoot with us , I had to laugh when he shot . Hit everything he shot at 100 - 1500 Yd. Every single time he shot .
Even old military weapons which to be kind couldn't see 5 MOA on their best day .

I asked him one day to shoot paper ( targets ) with me , he said he was way beyond paper targets .

A few months later he was using his ski racks on top of his car as a rest and shot 2 nice holes through the other sides rack !.

I then understood how he hit everything he ever shot at !. He never aimed at anything he just shot , then would tell you he was aiming at that object after impact !.

Clever shooter ; Huh .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

BR shooting is about who can pay for the best equipment.
it has no bearing whatsoever on anyhting other than geek test shooing clubs.
its not relevant to tactical shooting.
its not relevant to hunting.
a guy who makes a barrel for a 40 pound 6mm rifle to shoot a piece of paper in the next county knows only one thing...
how can i get this barrel to shoot very accurate then wear out faster so i can sell another one.
hunting happens in the woods, not on a bench w/ little flags and kestrels.

Sure its a nice feeling that ones custom mausers' custom cut barrel did 1/2" or less, and that the whole rig has true pedigree components lovingly put together.
But an accurate performing barrel even in the simplest of common man rifles, pleases me very much no matter how the rifling was manufactured. If it so happens it shoots well whilst having a rifling method that I may prefer,its a bonus.
I used to be in contact with a fellow who had a great many trips to Africa under his belt as well as alot of other hunting expliots in between.
He was a real source of knowledge and very enthusiatic about getting rifles to their potential. He often would help guys who could not get their rifle(factory or custom) to do well. He would say, leave the rifle with me for a month or so. Numerous times he worked a load for the rifle with groups that the owner did not believe possible after all their own attempts.
Sometimes it was not an issue with rifle,scope or load, but simply the operator on the bench.
A common sense approach is usually sufficient to avoid or rectify most problems one may encounter.

You mention that you appreciate picking the brains of the best in the world on this forum.
Well some of the best do indeed post here,but many of the best dont, you need to take the time to call or go meet them in person.
There are also extremely talented and knowledgable folk that dont belong to any guild or association who remain relatively unknown.

This factory barreled prewar.375pre64 usually puts 3 touching in a nice cluster, maybe some would be inclined to put a new cut rifle tube on to try and better things,many would not.


This top end M98-270win has a plain std.Shilen. Whispy thin but accurate.
Id be interested to know that If it came avail. for sale,and the genuinely interested person was to test it, see the targets and also verify the overall pristine quality of the rig,... how many would try and argue the price down or walk away from the purchase simply cause the barrel aint Krieger?

KSTEPHENS, while I will agree BR shooting requires an initial oulay of funds to get started, I must disagree with your statement "BR is about who spends the most on equipment". Over the last 20 years I have seen many new BR shooters show up with $3000.00 rifles, $800.00 rests, $600.00 worth of wind flags and stands and finish dead last. Don't get fooled into believing that the shooter has nothing to add to the equation. Before you make such an assumption you should at least try shooting a match. Most BR shooters will be glad to loan you a rifle and help you out. Who knows, you might learn something.

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
KSTEPHENS, while I will agree BR shooting requires an initial oulay of funds to get started, I must disagree with your statement "BR is about who spends the most on equipment". Over the last 20 years I have seen many new BR shooters show up with $3000.00 rifles, $800.00 rests, $600.00 worth of wind flags and stands and finish dead last. Don't get fooled into believing that the shooter has nothing to add to the equation. Before you make such an assumption you should at least try shooting a match. Most BR shooters will be glad to loan you a rifle and help you out. Who knows, you might learn something.

Eddie, but how many BR winners have you seen show up with a $400 rifle and a bunch of sandbags. Technology and $$$ has a hell of a lot, if not the greatest, contribution to winners and also rans. Sure there is skill, but skill without the technology is pretty much wasted.

Brent

Isn't bench rest shooting compared to hunting and long range shooting like formula one and nascar racing is to the family SUV or sedan?
For me it's a way to test loads then I move to what activity I planned for. It's a testing proceedure.
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
Isn't bench rest shooting compared to hunting and long range shooting like formula one and nascar racing is to the family SUV or sedan?

No

to me BR shooting is like belching the alphabet.
it takes skill that most people dont have, but, its not really apllicable to anything practical.
is it that sitting at a bench and shooting 40 pound rifles somehow makes you a better hunter?
the question was...
"Are hammer forged barrels less accurate overall than button and cut rifling tend to be all things being equal. I was wondering, using MOA of hunting if it made that much of a difference?"

in my experience.
The hunting rifles I have owned with hammer forged barrels have been the most accurate rifles I have ever shot.
they have been far and above what i needed to kill deer at distances up to 330 +- yards.

I have made shots with surgical presison and i have made rapid multiple shots with out POI shift that was disernible at ranges up to 200 yards.

the level of accuracy that i get instills alot of confidence in those rifles and i tend to use them more than others.

Kstephens,
It looks as you have never had an accurate rifle or would recognize one.
Butch

Gentlemen, (and I use the term loosely),

The original question was the accuracy of barrels using the different rifling methods. It was not who is a better shooter or how it relates to any specific competition style.

Saying that, if you look at just the physical (mechanical) aspects of the barrels themselves, benchrest shooters emphasize the performance of the equipment (barrels, gunsmithing, reloads, etc) much more so than the shooters skills such as high power shooters, tactical shooters, etc. use. For the purely mechanical aspects of the equipment, their flaws are magnified greater in benchrest competition and influence the results more than in any other sort of shooting.

No one will argue (or should rather because some people on here will argue about anything) that the smallest groups shot routinely are in benchrest competition and the winning barrels in the last few years have (by a large margin) mostly been cut-rifled. The serious competitors will try anything from moose milk to rubber donuts to get them the slightest advantage and if hammer forged barrels could compete, some shooters would be using them. I don't think that in any major benchrest competition there have ever been a hammer forged barrel in contention for any top place.

I don't think there exists a hammer-forging machine that can make a barrel with the contour of a benchrest barrel.Besides,no shooter could afford to have a hammer-forged benchrest barrel as often as he has a cut or buttoned replaced.If hammer-forged barrels existed for BR,I don't see why they could not outperform the barrels the are presently being used.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Kstephens,
It looks as you have never had an accurate rifle or would recognize one.
Butch

ok, ill bite.
what is accurate?
I have a steyr SBS 20" that shoots .5" groups w/ factory fodder.
who knows what it would do if it weighed 40 pounds and had custom neck turned brass and lost river ballistic handloads.

If it had a 40lb. stock and whatever handloads that you mention, it would probably still be a .75 MOA rifle in the hands of a good shooter. Most gundealers don't handle them as a Savage will outshoot it and cost half as much. The Styer may have a little "WOW" factor for some people, but not many.
How is that for stirring the dookie?
Butch

WOW!!! This is one heck of a conversation! I am learning a WHOLE LOT! I didn't mean to stir the roost. Actually I am a novice at this stuff comparitively. I just know that I like gorgeous and accurate. Much like any conversation about brunettes, blonds, and redheads, size, height, etc. We each like what we like. But there are just some women ALL men find fascinating and we could care less about size, color of hair, weight, etc. LOL!

And Woodjack? You are 100% right on the money with all that you said. And I can tell you that pic of the rifle you posted is simply GORGEOUS!!! Wouldn't make diddly to me what barrel was on it! Someday I will...someday I will own something like that. LOL!

Does anybody make hammer forged barrels with the same attention to detail that Lilja or Krieger (insert your favorite) does? I figure mass production and precision don't go hand in hand over a large sampling of product. Theoretically it can be said all methods can make a great barrel but is there a real world hammer forging barrel company that is regularly producing barrels that compete with the relatively small button and cutting companies?

No dempsey, they do not. And that is the problem. Hammer forging is a mass production process that is capital intensive because of volume requirements. It is a cost-effective mass production technology - not a precision technology.

Cut rifling is precision driven with the highest probability of getting a good barrel. Cut rifling is expensive. Button rifling is second to cut rifling in the probability of getting a good barrel becuase of the manufacturing process - not technician or craftsman. Buttoned barrels are less expensive than cut.

Good Question

Woodjack's rifle is beautiful and I bet it shoots great.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
Isn't bench rest shooting compared to hunting and long range shooting like formula one and nascar racing is to the family SUV or sedan?

No

You are saying that the technology developed for bench rest has not spread over to the other shooting disiplines and improved them?
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I don't think there exists a hammer-forging machine that can make a barrel with the contour of a benchrest barrel.Besides,no shooter could afford to have a hammer-forged benchrest barrel as often as he has a cut or buttoned replaced.If hammer-forged barrels existed for BR,I don't see why they could not outperform the barrels the are presently being used.

Many barrels in benchrest are on sporter and light varmint class guns that have a maximum weight limit for the entire gun of 10.5 Lbs. Not all benchrest guns are rails guns that have huge barrels on them.

Hmmm, there be the question! The only downside to hammer forged rifling that I would give merit to came from Dan Lilja. Lilja uses stress relieved steel in their barrels. They drill and machine the blanks and lap them before turning them out. Hammer forged barrels have internal stresses ponded into them which could cause the steel to react as the temperatures get higher. That being said, I have had very good hammer forged barrels, and some crappy ones. My two Sakos are darn good shooters out of the box, and I have a tikka that is phenominal. But for barrel to barrel consistency, I think it is more important that the barrel is made with quality first, then lapped, then quality checked before it ever winds up in your hands.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

Many barrels in benchrest are on sporter and light varmint class guns that have a maximum weight limit for the entire gun of 10.5 Lbs. Not all benchrest guns are rails guns that have huge barrels on them.

Not only is Frank correct about this, but I believe I am also correct when I say the BR rifles within the 10-1/2 pound weight limit (including everything, sights and all) vastly outnumber all others shot in competitive benchrest. The next heavier weight class has a 13.5 pound limit, but many competitors shoot their "light varmint" (10.5 pound) class rifles in the "heavy varmint" (13.5 pound) class too. Saves learning bench techniques for two different guns.

And, anyone who does not think BR shooting takes a great deal of skill simply does not know what he is talking about. Wind reading is even more crucial in BR than in high power. You have to learn how to read the wind well enough to know when to hold off 1/8th of a bullet-hole at 200 yards rather than 1/4 of a bullet-hole. That's why 45 power scopes have become popular. You have to be able to see that hole pretty well in order to hold off correctly. And you have to learn how to shoot through mirage, not just bitch about it.

Unlike high power competition (in which I hold a Master rating so am not dis'ing it) You can't get away with hitting any part of a target that is inches in size, with just any edge of your bullet. If you want to be competitive in group shooting, you have to be cutting the same small hole with ALL your bullets downrange.

Having said all that, I suspect I would have to disagree with Butch about why no one is using hammer-forged barrels in BR competition. Simply enough, the market is not large enough for anyone to MAKE benchrest barrels using hammer-forging. But if sufficient market was there to make it financically feasible, I do believe they would work just fine.

As far as stresses, etc. go, combos of heat soaking and other methods relieve the stresses rather well. Cut rifling, BTW, is not new to BR in the last few years. Cut rifling is what was used prior to button-rifling becoming popular.

As in every other field of shooting, BR has fads which come and go. I swear if I hung a pair of red long johns on my BR barrel and won a match shooting that way, at the very next match there would be others there with long johns draped over their barrels, and knowingly telling all who would listen how the wool underwear acted to "damp" errant vibratory mishaps. They'd also point out the advantages of wool over rayon or cotton.

One thing about technology, if the money is there to make it worth the craftsman's effort, he & the technology can overcome virtually any problem. You don't believe that, anyone? Go back to 1969 and recall some fella saying..."one great leap for mankind", then coming home safely to tell us all about his trip. Or spend some time studying chip advancements, nanotechnology, etc. And the list goes on and on....

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
If it had a 40lb. stock and whatever handloads that you mention, it would probably still be a .75 MOA rifle in the hands of a good shooter. Most gundealers don't handle them as a Savage will outshoot it and cost half as much. The Styer may have a little "WOW" factor for some people, but not many.
How is that for stirring the dookie?
Butch

LOL!
thats one of the most ignorant things I have heard from anyone on this forum.
classic AR.
I swear.
classic.
tell me, when was the last time you shot a steyr?
and as far as accurate.
OH! thats rich.
savage...

what do you think about the ssg69?
what about the scout?
you know of a 19" flutted bbl rifle that will outshoot the scout?
whew!'
your a riot.
hey. remind me again why Blaser, Sako and steyr all use hammer forged BBls?
to keep down cost right?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Looks like I did a good job getting Kstephens attention. AC, I don't believe that I posted anything about a hammerforged barrel. I just wanted Kstephens to know that if he wanted an accurate factory rifle he could buy a Savage.
Butch

You're probably right, Butch. There are so many posts in this thread I have lost track of who posted what. If I tagged you with a reference that was incorrect, I apologize. I know that you know your apples quite thoroughly.

BTW, on Savage accuracy... I own 4 Steyrs with hammer-forged barrels. They are good rifles for hunting purposes, and the BARRELS are probably good enough for match work, but the rifles as a whole are not designed for, and thus not good enough for, either benchrest or high power competition. And, yes, one of mine is a '69 SSG "Match" rifle (not the lighter "Marksman" model). Still not good enough for either competition if one has any interest in winning once in a while.

So with that knowledge, about 7 years ago now I arranged with Savage to provide an up-and-coming younger shooter here in the NW with a Savage .308 to shoot in Production Class benchrest competition. He won the national championship in that class that year with his Savage. Interesting, but only anecdotal. Obviously no flies on the Savage, though.

I just thought that I'd add this:

Richard Schatz just set a new IBS group record (pending certification) Sept 6 at the IBS 600 yd. Nationals at the Varmint Hunters range in Pierre,SD.

Richard Schatz fired a .888" 5 shot group at 600 yards in the light gun class in the first relay.

Equipment used:
Dan Dowling smithed 6 Dasher, .272 neck, .104" freebore in a Nesika K right bolt, left port, right eject. (Sturgis model)
using a Shehane Baby Tracker Stock and Jewel Trigger

27" Krieger HV taper 8 twist .236" bore (cut rifled)


Lapua cases fired three times
Re15
CCI 450's
Recent lot of Sierra Match King 107's @ 3030 fps

Thanks for the update Frank.

This should be helpful to those that do not have a tecnnical understanding. It is the bottom line where the rubber meets the road.

Pre 64 M70 Winchesters were also cut rifled.