Hate to bring this up at this time of the year, but what the hey is going on with Blackburns? I ordered and paid for three sets of bottom metal that were to be delivered in September. I know they probably had a cash flow issue about that time. I had not received the goods so I called in November an Maggie called me back with a tracking number that never panned out. Now the numbers are all off. Has anyone talked to them recently?

I spoke to Ted last week. It's more of the same stuff...someone is sick...something is broken...they need some money. He did say that they are finishing a run of M98 bottom metal that should ship "shortly". I guess I believe him, but we've had major disagreements in the past over just what "shortly" means.

Thanks, it really gets old doesn't it. I would have been gone a long time ago if I gave service like that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lb404:
..... what the hey is going on with Blackburns? I ordered and paid for three sets of bottom metal that were to be delivered in September...[QUOTE]

The same thing that was going on 15yrs ago...
to save dissapointment, you really need to get a year to go with the month they quote you....

I gave up and went with Sunny Hill.

I haven't ordered anything from him a long time. I really think he should raise his prices. It's a ton of work to make these from scratch. I can't see how he's making much money at all selling them at around $300?????? I'm not sure if a little more price would make the orders ship faster. There's VERY few people out there making these. Many who have don't want to go near it now. I think half the reason is nobody else can make money making them for $300 either. When you tell people it will cost much more for a really nice Mauser floormetal they tell you " Naaa I can get a Blackburn for around $300" Pretty much turned me off making them. Everyone tries to beat you down to a price that can't support everything involved.

I have also decided to take my business elsewhere. I refuse to patronize a business where policy is to lie to customers. I will file my own parts out of blocks of steel before I ever order from CNC specialties again.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
I haven't ordered anything from him a long time. I really think he should raise his prices. It's a ton of work to make these from scratch. I can't see how he's making much money at all selling them at around $300?????? I'm not sure if a little more price would make the orders ship faster. There's VERY few people out there making these. Many who have don't want to go near it now. I think half the reason is nobody else can make money making them for $300 either. When you tell people it will cost much more for a really nice Mauser floormetal they tell you " Naaa I can get a Blackburn for around $300" Pretty much turned me off making them. Everyone tries to beat you down to a price that can't support everything involved.

Gunmaker

Just out of curiosity, how much does the metal itself cost to make one of these, and how much time on a good CNC machine to make one?

The only solid one piece 98 Mauser ones I've made were while working for someone else. They started as one 5# piece of Titanium costing around $150. Machine time was pretty long due to the slow cutting speed that TI requires. First operation on those machined most everything that was inlet into the wood and took about 6 hours for 3 parts. There were several other operations as well. I'm not sure how fast you could cut one out of 11L17. I had a local machine shop that makes floormetals that fit Rem700s 5 days a week quote me the parts for a 2 piece that I would have to tig weld together. IIRC the pricing for parts minus my welding was around $300. That's the same time (February)I ordered skeleton grip caps from them. I'm still waiting for my grip caps.

We've been looking at making them as well, but the volume just isn't there for the price that would have to be charged...($250.00-$275.00).

My father wants to pursue it, but it would take a while to recoup the investment in tooling, to say nothing of how many different sizes and configurations would have to be made.

On the surface it seems like a decent deal, but I'm not sure yet whether its worth the trouble.

Matt,
I was thinking about calling you about this today. You could not keep them in stock, after the initial ramp up/customer notifications, for a 2 piece, box and bottom, for $200 ... EXACTLY like the remmington ... now, the floorplate needs a couple mods, but it's close, too

Make it ONE size, with a removable box, to get started ... its' minutes for a gunsmith to "inlet" the metal for a remmi box... just make the floor plact .3 longer, .125 wider, and arm .25 long and "taller" ..

LATER, do a drop box, but if you cover 30-06, standard mag, 375/404/rum (that's 3 boxes) you got it MADE

jeffe

The problem with using a sheet metal box on a Mauser is the front screw boss and the rear mag tail locates the top of the mag box with the feed rails. The actions that use sheet metal boxes have the receiver cut out to locate the box. making the alignment sloppy on a Mauser isn't really a good thing. Especially on a DGR. Even if it costs less.

Does it have to be sheetmetal? Couldn't one weld together 4 pieces of thin steel to make the box exactly like its supposed to be?

I wonder if anyone has taken one of the new William's units with the straddle floorplate, welded up the screw holes, redrilled them to Mauser length, and fitted a box? Anyone?

Our latest plan was simply machine it all from one piece, rather than a seperate box......

But, as I mentioned before, hard to say what the volume would be and whether it would warrant it or not.

Remington being far more popular these days for customizing, hasn't inspired me to go hog wild on the Mauser just yet with the number of bottom metal we've sold......getting better, but still a far cry from what I expected.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
...Just out of curiosity, how much does the metal itself cost to make one of these.....?

A single block of Bohler 238 chromemolly mould makers steel, ultrasound tested for internal faults, about 30 rockwell, cost about $70, pending where you buy it...but thats probably a more premium metal to what is in a BBurn unit.

Matt, have you thought about offering a straddle floor plate for the commercial mauser actions?

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
Matt, have you thought about offering a straddle floor plate for the commercial mauser actions?

Which ones? The new side push button type as found on later model Mark X's, Charles Daly's, and now Remingtons? They would look like crap.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Just out of curiosity, how much does the metal itself cost to make one of these, and how much time on a good CNC machine to make one?

The way I buy it, it's less than $20.00 for the guard and floorplate, but the money is in the machining, fixturing, and finishing.

Matt, do you make a drop box model? I didn't see one when I was looking so with the Blackburn wait my only other option was Sunny Hill.

Not yet, but have pondered that for the model 70 long and pre-64....not a big stretch to do, but my plate is running pretty full with FN right now.

Hence the fact I was at my shop last night till 11:00 P.M. and I'm programming now and probably won't leave until close to 10 again tonight.

quote:

Which ones? The new side push button type as found on later model Mark X's, Charles Daly's, and now Remingtons? They would look like crap

Mark X, release in the bow.

Just an opinion...my vote is to concentrate on Mauser bottom metal. Serious custom HUNTING rifle guys won't even consider a Remington for anything but a paper weight. Now don't get upset! The Remington is a damn good action 'nuff said

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
...Just out of curiosity, how much does the metal itself cost to make one of these.....?

A single block of Bohler 238 chromemolly mould makers steel, ultrasound tested for internal faults, about 30 rockwell, cost about $70, pending where you buy it...but thats probably a more premium metal to what is in a BBurn unit.

You don't need this material for a trigger guard and magazine box. A common piece of 1018 at about $.70 a lb will do fine. The steel should cost about $10 or less.

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:
Not yet, but have pondered that for the model 70 long and pre-64....not a big stretch to do, but my plate is running pretty full with FN right now.

Hence the fact I was at my shop last night till 11:00 P.M. and I'm programming now and probably won't leave until close to 10 again tonight.

It is my experience that the best shops stay busy with more than they can do. I am glad you are busy.

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

quote:

Which ones? The new side push button type as found on later model Mark X's, Charles Daly's, and now Remingtons? They would look like crap

Mark X, release in the bow.

Problem is, just how big is that market? That style bow has been out of production for a long time now. Everything for teh last twenty years has been that crossbolt release style. I think there is a larger market for complete in the bow release bottom metal than for just the floorplates.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ireload2:
..You don't need this material for a trigger guard and magazine box. A common piece of 1018 at about $.70 a lb will do fine. The steel should cost about $10 or less.[QUOTE]

True, 238 is not essential, but some premium custom builders prefer it, just like they prefer building receivers out of the better 17-4 stainless rather than 416grade....anyway 22WRF,some perspective, $10-$70 for the steel or $150 for A block of Titanium....just depends on your desires and budget.
A person could investigate getting an 1909 argentine bottom end and having a straddle floor plate fitted to jazz it up a bit,,might save some bucks.

Straddle floorplates are avaialable for the 1909 Agentine. Jim Wisner still makes them. I believe they are $50 or maybe he raised his price to $60.00. I have purchased a few of them and they are very well made, but they have to be fitted, and if you don't have a milling machine and have to do it with files it takes forever and a day. Also, you have to drill for the pin, and you can really screw it up if you don't get that hole just right.

Additionally, in order to make things look right, you also need to make a new release in the triggerguard that has a button on it. That also can be done by hand if you first cut the piece out with some sort of band saw. After you try doing one of these you realize that the money some of these metalsmiths ask for doing this type of work is worth every penny.

Here is a dumb photo of my atttempt to lower my frustration at Blackburn's slowness in filling an order. I thought it would be easy to cut the triggerguard off of a mauser box and weld a new one on that looked like a blackburn. Well, getting the rough shape wasn't too hard but how to make the cutout for the release without a milling machine is the question.

Since there are so many Mauser bottom metals out there, it seems to me that someone could make some good money by producing just the triggerguard that looks like the blackburn or the oberndorf style that could be welded onto the mauser bottom metal to dress things up a bit.

quote:

Well, getting the rough shape wasn't too hard but how to make the cutout for the release without a milling machine is the question.

Mark out the slot, use a small drill bit and/ or Dremel to remove the waste material, and then finish with files. If you have good quality files of the correct size, it shouldn't take more than two hours.

Matt, how is the receiver coming along?
Butch

22wrf,

For most people the issue isn't the shape of the bow, rather it is the length and width of the mag box. Proper dimensions, which by the way Blackburn's aren't, help ensure proper stacking & feeding.

Shape of the bow is secondary for most. In fact, I know many who do not like the "oberndorf" inspired bows.

Jim,
inlet the metal for the box, EXACTLY like an enfield. If you like, tack weld it together.
Enfields, winchesters, CZ, ruger and CZ all use 2 part box and bottom.
jeffe

721

I agree. My attempt was going to be for an 8 x 57 truck gun, so the box was already correct. However, I would imagine that if a guy knew the correct box size for the cartridge he was chamgering he could also cut off the mauser box and weld a new one of those on as well.

I myself really like the shape of the Blackburn Guard over the Oberndorf style.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Straddle floorplates are avaialable for the 1909 Agentine. Jim Wisner still makes them. I believe they are $50 or maybe he raised his price to $60.00. I have purchased a few of them and they are very well made, but they have to be fitted, and if you don't have a milling machine and have to do it with files it takes forever and a day. Also, you have to drill for the pin, and you can really screw it up if you don't get that hole just right.

Additionally, in order to make things look right, you also need to make a new release in the triggerguard that has a button on it. That also can be done by hand if you first cut the piece out with some sort of band saw. After you try doing one of these you realize that the money some of these metalsmiths ask for doing this type of work is worth every penny.

Here is a dumb photo of my atttempt to lower my frustration at Blackburn's slowness in filling an order. I thought it would be easy to cut the triggerguard off of a mauser box and weld a new one on that looked like a blackburn. Well, getting the rough shape wasn't too hard but how to make the cutout for the release without a milling machine is the question.

Since there are so many Mauser bottom metals out there, it seems to me that someone could make some good money by producing just the triggerguard that looks like the blackburn or the oberndorf style that could be welded onto the mauser bottom metal to dress things up a bit.

If you are happy with a 3 piece welded together assy. There is a vast combination of processes that will get you a Mauser trigger guard.

1. The flat pattern for the bottom metal becomes very easy to make. Maybe a $40 to $50 part.
2. The bent up and welded sheet metal box would be about $15 to $30 depending if you needed some finish machining.
3. The roughed out guard bow about $20 to $30.
4. The latch about $15 to $20.
5. The floor plate might be about $30 to $35.
Springs and pins $1 per assy.

Welding and finishing is the most difficult.
Probably about $60.

These are estimates in a factory set up to produce these parts in runs of about 40 to 100 each after the tooling is amortized.

Problem is the customer will want:

Two or 3 different guard bows
4 lengths
3 or 4 stack widths
2 or 3 stack heights
dropped boxes.
carbon steel, stainless steel, titanium
some will want matte blue, rust blue, high polish blue or electroless nickel

A lot of variations.

In the early 90's I had two 98 Mauser magazine assemblies as well as the bows and plate assemblies made for the Pre-64 made by a company that now out of business. One of the 98's was a drop box that held 5 Std Belt mag rounds such as the 300 Win Win, 338 win or 458 win (3.400 OAL) that was no deeper than than a current 4 shot drop box. The unit came polished , but the bow was left uncontoured on the sides so the smith could alter the bow as they saw fit. We included a set of 4140 guard screws and the correct follower for this box. We also offered a std depth, 5 shot 30/06 magazine (3.400 OAL) The cost at time was approx. $135.00 more than the Blackburn and Sunny Hill which did not include the follower or Guard screws. Of the 50 or so we made we sold very few. I was told repeatedly that they were over priced. I guess so. However I still have the remainder in inventory and do not have to worry about supply for 98's in any similar calibers.

Finn Aagaard wrote about them in an American Rifleman article for the Sept issue in 1992. I took them to a number of SCI conventions and sold some to Westley, Rigby, Hartmann % Weiss, Etc. However the American trade while very complementary went elsewhere. This was a lesson learned the hard way

Currently I'm about to start a run of four 505 magazines for the H&W action that will likely cost me $900.00 per unit for the run of four, less the follower, but at LEAST I will have them. The moral to all this is you can produce a great product that no one will pay you for. Those initial up front cost were steep but now appear to have been a pretty good investment.

Food for thought

22WRF,

As suggested, you can do the bow lever slot by hand.... some gentle time over a few nights and one can achieve an almost seemless fit.

Some feel the BB units are a bit too thickn'meaty in the forward of the bow...

I believe they could do with some geometric refining &trimming.

Below you see an Mr.Echols supplied Bmetal....subtle refined differences are evident.



Here you see Jerry Fisher mauser,and below it, a Billeb mauser with the beefier BBBmetal.


Close-up Fisher Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Some feel the BB units are a bit too thickn'meaty in the forward of the bow...

I think they do that on purpose, as recently discovered by my gunsmith and I when we tried to break into the low end ($100)bottom metal business. Our plan was to convert military to hinged with a straddle floor plate and in the bow release. If you don't have enough meat your release lever will bend when you release it. To remedy this we placed the button higher than normal and it didn't look very good.



Our button was also too big. Back to the drawing board. He'll have some more time this summer. We will work it out as well as the proper dimensions for the box. The problem with all this is when everything is worked out, and labor is accounted for your looking at a $250 to $300 unit. That may be ok for a full blown custom from a name smith, but we were trying to hit the middle income guy just trying to dress up an old sporter or Mark X.

Woodjack

I am looking and looking and looking at that Fisher "Mauser" and finally I figured out what I wasn't seeing was the bolt handle. Left Handed Military Mauser??????

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that Echols rifle have Thomas Burgess bottom metal on it????

I have wondered, if working from a forging is a bit tough on setup $$$, could you use a waterjet to roughout, and then machine them done?

i mean, seriously, there's a machine shop up here i need to go talk to, that owns a jet and fairly reasonable rates for time...

mine would be made from 2 pieces, so the smith could swap the mag ... and if he can't machine back a slot .3 longer, he shouldn't be in the the biz, anyway.. and if you like, weld/solder them up.

ONLY mausers and springfields use the onepiece, enfields (there's been more than one dgr built on those) remington (aren't they know for accuracy?) winchester, cz (the name in DGRs these days), ruger, weatehrby, howa, .. in fac,t nearly every one, uses a 2 piece bottom metal...

I'll talk to them when i can find their phone number again
jeffe

quote:

Our button was also too big. Back to the drawing board. He'll have some more time this summer. We will work it out as well as the proper dimensions for the box. The problem with all this is when everything is worked out, and labor is accounted for your looking at a $250 to $300 unit. That may be ok for a full blown custom from a name smith, but we were trying to hit the middle income guy just trying to dress up an old sporter or Mark X.

I've had good luck with the yugo, but their bows seem to have a little more meat on them.
-Don

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I have wondered, if working from a forging is a bit tough on setup $$$, could you use a waterjet to roughout, and then machine them done?

i mean, seriously, there's a machine shop up here i need to go talk to, that owns a jet and fairly reasonable rates for time...

mine would be made from 2 pieces, so the smith could swap the mag ... and if he can't machine back a slot .3 longer, he shouldn't be in the the biz, anyway.. and if you like, weld/solder them up.

ONLY mausers and springfields use the onepiece, enfields (there's been more than one dgr built on those) remington (aren't they know for accuracy?) winchester, cz (the name in DGRs these days), ruger, weatehrby, howa, .. in fac,t nearly every one, uses a 2 piece bottom metal...

I'll talk to them when i can find their phone number again
jeffe

Jeffe,
I used to work for a company that manufactured metal hip replacement implants. The titanium implants were water jet roughed out of bricks about 2 inches thick.
Laser and plasma cutters may be able to doe a more precise roughing operation and at higher speeds. There are various feed rate calculators for these processes on the internet. They are so fast that cutting hundreds of blanks is easy and they lend themselves to easily roughing the contour of the guard bow.
on very thick material up to 2 or 3 inches thick they might only cut a couple of inches a minute.
On thinner material the feed rates can exceed 40 inches a minute.