Thank you. I've already put enough money in this rifle and I think the best route would be to sell it, take the proceeds and add a bit of money to them and but a SAKO. The difference would take to move up to a SAKO would be considerably less that it would take to buy and install a new barre and stock. I have to look into what rate of twist a SAKO barrel in .223 would have~!

quote:

send it to a gun smith or IT&D,

Years back I used IT@D to barrel a couple of rifles they both shot very well

I don't know who "IT&D" is. I've never heard of them~? Where are they and how do I reach them~!

As far as I remember they are located in Ohio been years that I used them

Do you have their full name~? Maybe I can dig them up~!

That is their trade name far as I know

used to be

It & D Custom Gun
2229 Leisure Road Nw
Minerva, OH 44657

(330) 868-6867
http://www.itdcustomgun.com/

WOW~! Thanks a lot. I'll be calling them in the morning~!

If you want an off the shelf rifle that will do what you are asking of a rifle buy a Cooper M21..

I've read somewhere about shimming the M77 bolt and how it relates to accuracy in an M77. Is this true across all calibers~? I may have read that in remarks about the 77/22.
It that would apply to my M77 in .223~? And if so where can I buy those shims~?

I don't recall, did you state the current accuracy?

If *I* were after only accuracy, I'd get a savage

Thanks. I understand that the Savage is suppose to be accurate, but accuracy is only one of the things on my list of requirements AND I can't stand that trigger of theirs. I could never get used to that silly blade.
I'll take my reworked Timney any day. I've been shooting for 65 years and never had an AD yet. Don't need some add-on device sticking our of the middle to help me prevent one.
Never actually measured the accuracy of my Ruger. Just looking at my targets tells me that I'm not where I want to be.

dwcars So, how big are your groups at 100 yards then? 3 inches? How bad is it? Lots of tricks out there to make a bolt action shoot. We need to know where we're starting. It may not be an ammo issue.

I'm already aware that it might not all be an ammo issue, although I'm highly experienced in cartridge prep and reloading. What I didn't know was the fact that my 1:12 twist barrel would not stabilize a 55gr bullet. My next step will be to try some 53gr and 52gr bullets. One follower recommended a 50gr pill. Once I find the best bullet weight I'll try chasing the issue through addressing the rifle itself. The one thing I've not mentioned is that in terms of accuracy I've been spoiled rotten by a 6mm PPC~!

quote:

Originally posted by dwcars:
I'm already aware that it might not all be an ammo issue, although I'm highly experienced in cartridge prep and reloading. What I didn't know was the fact that my 1:12 twist barrel would not stabilize a 55gr bullet. My next step will be to try some 53gr and 52gr bullets. One follower recommended a 50gr pill. Once I find the best bullet weight I'll try chasing the issue through addressing the rifle itself. The one thing I've not mentioned is that in terms of accuracy I've been spoiled rotten by a 6mm PPC~!

I don't even remember the size of the groups I've been shooting, but they are definitely no 1/2" MOA. I should also mention that the M-77 is a paddle-stocked stainless version.

dwcars Lots of .224 diameter bullets out there. I'd try 40's to start but that just me, availability assumed of course. But, first, considering that many many shooters recommend 55's for a 1/12 twist, it wouldn't hurt to run a nylon brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool down the barrel several times back and forth to see if it gets any metal fragments on it. At least rule it out if nothing else. I have a low round count .270 bench rest with a Douglas barrel that was built in 1963 that only got 2.5 inch groups with factory Cor-Lokts. Brushed the barrel in this manner and found no less than 3 flakes of steel on the wool. Group size dropped over an inch using the same factory ammo. Keep us posted. Have fun with it. Beautiful Rifle in S.S.

quote:

Originally posted by dwcars:
Thanks. I wasn't going to go quite that light, but what have I got to lose~!

OK everyone. I'm done with the 55 gr bullets for the moment. I found some factory 40gr loads by Sig in .223 and I'[ve bought some Hornady and some Sierra 53 grain bullets. Now the hunt begins for which bullet weight I need to be shooting. Wish me luck.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luckyducker:
I have had a few Mark II Ruger rifles and they all shot well except for one, a M77 RSI 308Win. The most accurate was a boat paddle stocked all-weather in 243Win. With my handloads it would shoot into one hole at 100 yds. off heavy sand bags. The 77 in 30/06 that I traded the RSI for was fairly accurate but copper fouled the bore in less than 20 rounds, so bad it would have to improve to call bad. I hand lapped that tube with compound and a soft lead bullet till I thought my arm was going to fall off, but it would shoot .25 MOA after this procedure and wouldn't foul hardly at all. I concur that a 1/12 twist is really slow for 223Win, as I like an 8" twist. You should maybe try lighter bullets to see if that could be the problem, though it isn't the weight per-se that is the problem but the length of the bearing surface of the bullet. So in reality you need shorter bullets for a slower twist barrel. If you want to shoot a 52-55 grain bullet you may need a different barrel [QUOTE]

Thanks~! I will definitely try your suggestion which has bee suggested by several others. I have bought a box of factory loaded SIG 40gr cartridges and some 52gr and 53gr bullets to reload. I'll get to the bottom of this thing yet~!

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:
How much load development have you done?

Paddle stocks are known for durability not bench rest accuracy.

You’d be money ahead to get a Ruger American. Tune the trigger and glass bed an aluminum arrow shaft in the forend and you should achieve or at least get close to your accuracy goal.

I've actually done what I consider to be an excessive number of load development with several different powders and bullets by different manufacturers. Each combination tested with ladders. Some were ok, but none were what I'd like. I've actually owned thios rifle for approximately 20 years and don't have much money in it compared to what they are selling for these days. So to spend a couple of hundred dollars getting it to shoot would not bury me in it. I think the twist rate is the biggest problem and am thinking about having a Rutger specialist re-barrel it. Just who that gunsmith might be is the question~!

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:

You’d be money ahead to get a Ruger American. Tune the trigger and glass bed an aluminum arrow shaft in the forend and you should achieve or at least get close to your accuracy goal.

I have the trigger I want. It's a Timney worked down to 3/4 pounf pull snf it couldn't be more perfect~!

If I sell this one and try to locate a rifle I like, I'll have to add more cash than I want to spend. Some folks are suggesting a Savage, but I can't stand the feel of their trigger, and the looks of the rifle don't appeal to me at all. Other than my "paddle stock" I wouldn't own one of those "plastic" things (personal taste). Butt ugly~!

gun barrels are an inity unto themselves, all this black magic is hogwash...shoot for one inch and be done with it, even pin heads are good with a one inch gun, and keep playing with load combinations as you go and shoot for a half inch gun, you might get lucky...A 1/4" is mostly smoke and bullshit with a factory gun, and anybodys custom gun short of world class bench rifles and I know for a fact that those guns are the result of 15 to 25 new barrels tested and tossed until the magic one quarter shows up..To us pilgrims its the fountain of youth search..

have you tried different primers? They do make a difference!

quote:

Originally posted by MoreBS:
have you tried different primers? They do make a difference!

That's a new suggestion and one one that never crossed my mind, I thought that I had tried every powder/bullet combination but never had any idea that the primer could have an impact on accuracy.
Thanks much for the suggestion. I'll give it a try. Do you have a favorite~?

Primers won't help.
Ray is right; although it is entity.
I have had several of the Ruger boat paddle 77s; (none in 223) they are great hunting rifles. Yours is shooting as well as it ever will.

quote:

Originally posted by dwcars:
If I sell this one and try to locate a rifle I like, I'll have to add more cash than I want to spend. Some folks are suggesting a Savage, but I can't stand the feel of their trigger, and the looks of the rifle don't appeal to me at all. Other than my "paddle stock" I wouldn't own one of those "plastic" things (personal taste). Butt ugly~!

Different strokes for different folks~!! A stainless action and barrel in a paddle stock can fall out of the canoe and lay on the bottom for some time without incurring any kind of damage~!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Primers won't help.
Ray is right; although it is entity.
I have had several of the Ruger boat paddle 77s; (none in 223) they are great hunting rifles. Yours is shooting as well as it ever will.

I don't believe that for a minute. I'll keep trying until I get the best shooting loads, and then I'll start modifying the rifle bit by bit. Re-crowning the barrel probably won't hurt it~!

My brother worked with a fellow that had a 243, best he could do is 1.5" @ 100.

He told him for years to go buy every brand primer made and try them!

Finally, one Monday he came to work with a great big smile!!

3/4" groups all day long, by just finding the right primer for his load.

I'm now working on a plan of attack on the proble. My 40 gr, 52 gr, and 53 gr bullets should show up in a day or so. Ive had such great luck with the H322 that I'm going to build a steep ladder with each bullet to find which bullet gives me the best groups. From there I'll build a tighter ladder till I get to the best, and from there I'll try some different primers. I know I can find a satisfactory solution, and I'll be in there like a bull dog till I do~!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You are wasting time and money on a rifle that will never shoot as well as you expect. Borescoping it won't show anything. Waste of money. Prior to 1990, Ruger bought Wilson barrels; they were just looking for average hunting accuracy; most of them shot well enough for the average hunter. I've owned many of them. No 223s. After 1990, Ruger started hammer forging their own barrels and those are uniformly fine.
The trigger is not the problem and changing it won't help.
And no, no gunsmith short of a magician will make most of these shoot .25 MOA.

I, personally, like the boat paddle stocks; but they are not for bench rest rifles.

I'm not looking for benchrest accuracy, but I do want my rifle to hit within 1.5" of my POA at 175 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by dwcars:
Thanks. I understand that the Savage is suppose to be accurate, but accuracy is only one of the things on my list of requirements AND I can't stand that trigger of theirs. I could never get used to that silly blade.
I'll take my reworked Timney any day. I've been shooting for 65 years and never had an AD yet. Don't need some add-on device sticking our of the middle to help me prevent one.
Never actually measured the accuracy of my Ruger. Just looking at my targets tells me that I'm not where I want to be.

Was just looking through the rest of this discussion and noticed your earlier post where you espoused your 'contempt' for the centre blade type triggers, namely found on Savage, Marlin and probably a few other firearms too.

I have similar feelings about these and on my own and one of my sons Marlin XS rifles I simply disabled the centre blade. The Marlin centre blade is skeletonized and when held back into the trigger shoe a short piece of suitably sized drill stem can be inserted into the hole exposed in the centre blade behind the trigger shoe. A small dab of RTV sealant to hold the pin in place and you have a normal trigger shoe with the centre blade locked back into the trigger shoe. This modification can be carried out without dismantling anything and it is surprising just how much better the trigger pull feels. Operation of the trigger is not compromised, it is just the same as most all other triggers.

If selling the rifle and wanting it to be in sync with the Operation Manual, the modification can be easily reversed by just pulling the inserted pin out.

I have free floated the barrels on our cheap plastic fantastic Marlin XS 7mm-08 rifles and they will shoot at least three shots from cold all bullets touching at 100m. Can't ask for better than that from a lightweight hunting rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
If your older Ruger 223 won’t shoot 55 grain bullets to your satisfaction your probably looking at a new good barrel. Several fellows here could do this for you.
It is said that the older Ruger had intermittent barrel quality issues. Having said that, 1/4” 1/2” is quite a high bar.

I can already do 3/8" and have only installed a Timney trigger with the lightest adjustable pull reduced below Timney's lower limit.