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| One of Us |
I have a paddle stocked early M77 with a Timney trigger and no other modifications. When I say older I'm referring to the time when Ruger used the 1:12 twist in the M77 .223 barrels. I love the rifle and just learned that my accuracy problem was partially due to using 55gr bullets, and that I should be using 53gr or 52gr in that slow a twist. Do any of you know a gunsmith who can dial this rifle in to shoot 1/4 to 1/2 MOA~? | ||
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One of Us |
Sure; I will put a new Douglas barrel on it and that will fix it. Twist rate is not your problem; the barrel quality is. | |||
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If your older Ruger 223 won’t shoot 55 grain bullets to your satisfaction your probably looking at a new good barrel. Several fellows here could do this for you. It is said that the older Ruger had intermittent barrel quality issues. Having said that, 1/4” 1/2” is quite a high bar. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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| One of Us |
I have had a few Mark II Ruger rifles and they all shot well except for one, a M77 RSI 308Win. The most accurate was a boat paddle stocked all-weather in 243Win. With my handloads it would shoot into one hole at 100 yds. off heavy sand bags. The 77 in 30/06 that I traded the RSI for was fairly accurate but copper fouled the bore in less than 20 rounds, so bad it would have to improve to call bad. I hand lapped that tube with compound and a soft lead bullet till I thought my arm was going to fall off, but it would shoot .25 MOA after this procedure and wouldn't foul hardly at all. I concur that a 1/12 twist is really slow for 223Win, as I like an 8" twist. You should maybe try lighter bullets to see if that could be the problem, though it isn't the weight per-se that is the problem but the length of the bearing surface of the bullet. So in reality you need shorter bullets for a slower twist barrel. If you want to shoot a 52-55 grain bullet you may need a different barrel with a faster twist to get it to shoot. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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THe M16A1 was issued with a 1-12 twist and stabilized the 55 gr M193 round with no issues... | |||
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| Administrator |
I have had quite a few Ruger 77 rifles through here. They all shot reasonably well, on par with other factory hunting rifles. Except 1, in 220 Swift. It was given to me by Steven Vogel, who was married to Bill Rugers daughter. That rifle shot exceedingly well. He used to come to Dubai, and we always had a great time. I stayed at his house when I visited them. Great family. | |||
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How much load development have you done? Paddle stocks are known for durability not bench rest accuracy. You’d be money ahead to get a Ruger American. Tune the trigger and glass bed an aluminum arrow shaft in the forend and you should achieve or at least get close to your accuracy goal. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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A 12:1 twist sure as hell isn't too slow to shoot 55gr accurately. I have a 14:1 that shoots under 1/4" with 55 and less weight. Sort thru some other brands of bullets. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Not asking for much. A true .250-.500 rifle is hard to come by. One could re-barrel it glass bed it put the best scope on it. You still might not have a .250-.500 rifle. Good luck in your quest. I well remember the days that a 1 inch rifle was thought to be the holy Gail. | |||
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I guess that I'm going to have to go back to square one. All my loads thus far have been with 55gr and heavier bullets and 4 different powders. You all know how many ladders one has to build to find accuracy. I spend lots and lots of time weighing cartridges and messaging brass so there isn't a problem in that department. What are your favorite (ie Most accurate) 52 and 53 grain bullets for the .223~? How far off the lands do you seat them or am I stuck with the factory chamber depth~? | |||
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| One of Us |
I've suspected that for a while. Back in those days Ruger changed barrel manufacturers several times. I think that they were looking for price more that quality, I'm going to have my smith scope the barrel and see if there are any obvious problems. If there aren't I'll nave him shim the bolt, dheck the headspace, and recrown the barrel accurately. This will involve spending far less than it would cost for a quality barrl. I don't know that I want to put too much money in a Ruger M77~! | |||
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| One of Us |
I've already spent money on a Timney trigger,and the installing smith even lightened its pull. He polished the sear at the same time. The trigger is as nice as I could ever wish for. | |||
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| One of Us |
You are wasting time and money on a rifle that will never shoot as well as you expect. Borescoping it won't show anything. Waste of money. Prior to 1990, Ruger bought Wilson barrels; they were just looking for average hunting accuracy; most of them shot well enough for the average hunter. I've owned many of them. No 223s. After 1990, Ruger started hammer forging their own barrels and those are uniformly fine. The trigger is not the problem and changing it won't help. And no, no gunsmith short of a magician will make most of these shoot .25 MOA. It is what it it is; sell it and buy a new, cheap, rifle with a cheap Hammer forged barrel. They out shoot anything but a real custom barrel. I, personally, like the boat paddle stocks; but they are not for bench rest rifles. | |||
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I agree new barrel glass bed it free float the barrel and most likely you well get a sub MOA rifle. Getting a true .250 rifle would be amazing. Not needed I found a sub 3/4 varmint rifle kills PD's out there a long ways. I have one rifle that I well count on to shoot sub .5 all the time a lot of times into the .250 to .375 a lot of times. That is out of a 8 or so varmint rifles. | |||
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The new guns may shoot dandy dpcd. But, they're ugly. If this was my gun and I was on a tight budget, I would want to borescope it and "read the rifling" before moving it along or keeping it for stalking. Such a nice looking rifle, plastic stock and all especially the Zytel/SS ones. Balance is incredible. Re-barrel on the Ruger not recommended. Not cost effective.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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| One of Us |
Mine never had enough rounds through it to be "shot out". I think that it might have been made by Wilson before Ruger started making their own. I've recently learned that the 1:12 twist might be too slow for the bullets I've been trying to dial in (gr). I'm going to try shimming the bolt and buying some 53gr and 52gr bullets before I completely throw in the towel~! | |||
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If I send the rifle back to Ruger to have a new barrel installed, will they mess with the Timney trigger and trigger work I had done~? | |||
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They well return it to factory specs. | |||
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| One of Us |
RATS~! That's not the answer I wanted to hear I just can't see dropping money for a big barrel and install only to end up with 2wo times what the gun is worth. | |||
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| One of Us |
Borescoping tells you nothing of value; shooting is the only real test. Yes, Ruger will not allow any aftermarket accessories to be on a rifle they work on. As you can imagine, they can't be responsible for someone else's part. Yes, try some different bullets. I would try some upward pressure on the barrel at the foreend tip. This kind of thing can be frustrating. Anyway, replacing parts trying for better accuracy is not usually productive; triggers do not contribute much to accuracy if the user is trained on the one he has. | |||
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In my particular case I've found that a light trigger makes an incredible improvement in the accuracy I can achieve. A lesser effort and smoothness in squeezing it minimizes the possibility of pulling of the shot. I've experienced this in a number of my rifles. | |||
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I sent them an email to ask and have yet to receive a response. So thanks for your answer. Guess it's not going back to them. | |||
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I once had a Wilson based custom Contender barrel chambered in .222 Mag, which came with a one MOA guarantee. It was a solid 1-1/4 MOA shooter with 52-55 grain bullets, but would meet the guarantee with 40 Gr round nose Hornet bullets. Not what I wanted to shoot, so that barrel was eventually sold. Early in my shooting days, I put stupid effort into fine tuning a Rem 700 Varmint Special in 22-250. I eventually did achieve a 10 shot group with 9 of the 10 in 3/8" and the tenth opening it up to 1/2". Fools errand. This time with Match bullets instead of hunting bullets. That rifle is also long gone, not for accuracy, but because it was so damn heavy. I think there are problems detrimental to accuracy that a borescope won't reveal. You can't see if the bore diameter or the twist rate varies a smidge. | |||
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The user/shooter has to learn to manage triggers; all rifles do not have crisp 2 ounce triggers, nor do they need them. Military two stage triggers are completely useful. American shooters are spoiled and untrained. | |||
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Well then I stand guilty as accused, "spoiled and untrained". Perhaps I should begin lifting or doing trigger finger curls with a 10 pond weight.Not sure where I would go to acquire "training", Marine boot camp maybe~? | |||
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| One of Us |
That would be a start. I see shooters all the time that come to me and ask for a two ounce trigger on hunting rifles, so they can jerk the trigger when the crosshairs hit the target, due to not knowing the basics of rifle marksmanship. I didn't say you didn't know. I am only talking about other guys I watch shoot rifles. Many of them are my friends too. Point is, triggers do not contribute much to inherent accuracy. | |||
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That's where I acquired mine, although I did have some training before I got there. And since the trigger pull on an M14 runs 6-6.5 lbs we didn't really need to do full 10 lb curls. I qualified "Expert" and think I could maybe do the same today with a bit of brushing up. Semper Fi. | |||
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Well I never received any training and I've been shooting for 71 years. Did pretty well back when I was shooting competitively. Never was a national champion but I could certainly do better than "hold my own"! | |||
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| one of us |
Before you do all this advise, shoot some 40 gr. Noslers, 45 gr, Hornady BEE, lighter bullets over some H322 powder.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Thanks. I wasn't going to go quite that light, but what have I got to lose~! | |||
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| One of Us |
Try the Honady 50 gr. SP SX or the 50 gr. Sierra Blitz. Both designed for 14" twist, and shot extremely in a standard weight Rem. 700 BDL in .222. Or try the Nosler Varmegeddon flat base, or the plastic-tipped Ballistic tips. Clarence | |||
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send it to a gun smith or IT&D, and have them put on a fit for purpose 20" a bit heavier than you might expect barrel on it, with a recessed crown .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Clarence, I agree about the 50 gr. Hornady. That shoots in my Ruger No. 1, which also does not do well with most 55 gr bullets (or heavier bullets). 69 gr. boat tails keyhole at 100 yds. Jeffeosso, Why do you recommend the 20" barrel, specifically? | |||
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Agree with this. NRA Patron member | |||
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Is IT&D still around ? | |||
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| Moderator |
mostly personal preference - except that a short stiff barrel generally shoots better than a longer-of-the-same-taper barrel .. it's a good compromise point- can be short and fat, and give a greater accuracy than a long whippy one ... the 223 doesn't have much powder capacity, and you aren't giving up much vels over a 24 1:8 ish twist, wilde chamber, shoot most any weight bullet, and not spray the lighter ones
I just checked their (down) website .. might not be . opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| one of us |
The Ruger action is sound and can be the basis for an very accurate rifle ; though not benchrest accurate. In 223, I would be very confident of being able to produce a sub .5 moa rifle, with 3/8 moa definitely feasible. The barrel may well be the limiting factor here but it is just as likely to be the stock. Now, I'll tell you something else I have seen on numerous Ruger 77's. The barrels are screwed into the receiver loosely!. I'm not kidding. I've had several which came loose while I was putting the wrench on! Many could easily be tightened up by 1/8 turn or more. While this is unlikely to be your issue, it doesn't hurt to check. As I hinted at, the stock sux. It is fine for a rough usage handle but not even a sound basis for any kind of accuracy work. So, you can turn your Ruger into an impressively accurate rifle bu be prepared to throw some money at it for a barrel, stock, and gunsmithing.Sending it to Ruger for a new barrel would not, in my opinion, be money well spent. Regards, Bill | |||
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Jeffeosso Thanks. I remember a variation of the Remington 40 X benchrest rifle that was offered with a very heavy 20 inch barrel. | |||
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