The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Blown up mauser photo hijacked from the reloading forumGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Pretty spectacular....  | ||
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WOW, so what did the front end look like?, or haven't they found it yet?  Steve | |||
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I've been involved with a 98 test where we filled the barrel with molten lead and a 338 Mag case full of bulleseye or reddot in an 09 arg barrel. The bolt held in the receiver and the only thing that broke was the thin section in the front ring adjacent to the extractor. About .5 X .75". Something must have been very wrong with the metallurgy in the pic above. | |||
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The test we did also had brass flowing all over the bolt and it plated the flange on the shroud. Where's the brass in the picture???? | |||
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Looks like the bolt stop claw has some brass on it. It appears the bolt backed out about .250 and it is still closed.... While Bullseye is very fast there are some spherical powders that might permit you to get a lot heavier charge weights than BE and are nearly as fast. | |||
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Many thanks, anyways you look at it, that is seriously scarey, goodness knows what a lesser action than the mauser with its vaunted safety features would have do. Steve | |||
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That's why I would never consider an old action for a custom rifle project. | |||
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You have got to be kidding! That action may very well have saved the shooters life! It held together and directed the gas away from his face. It did it's job well. No action is bomb proof which is probably what went off inside it. What makes you think something built yesterday would have held up better? Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I clicked on the link above to read the original story and see the other photos. The basic premise is that writer's "neighbor" bought a can of "H414" powder at a gun show, loaded a mild load for his rifle and this is the result. There's so much in the story that sets off my BS meter that its difficult for me to buy this entire tale, I'll just deal with the end result: to completely shear off three locking lugs and the bolt handle of a Mauser takes some serious pressure - the kind of pressure that's difficult to create without really trying. The story says the shooter had only a "fat lip and minor lacerations to his left fore arm". IF someone really was holding this rifle a few inches from his face when this happened, he's a very lucky fellow to have come out of it with just a fat lip. If I were going to screw around and just see if I could blow up an action it would probably be Bubba'd KAR Mauser in a cheap Ramline plastic stock. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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According to the tests we performed 2 years ago, a blowup like this on a m98 only requires a presure of apx 6500bar apx 90000psi this presure is easy to reach, by just using powder 2 steps to fast. The same presure of 6500bar didnt even make modern pf rifles show heavy boltlift. The modern PF rifles blew at a presure from 9000bar up to 10500bar. The reson why the CRF rifles blow at a mutch lower presure, is supposibly, because of the lack of casehead support, leading to a casehead leak, leading to a dramaticaly increased presurearea at the front of the bolt, exposing the bolt to a thrust apx 3 times higher than if the casehead is supported, and dont leak. To Gunmaker Using extremly fast pistol powder, oftens mislead people to think that they gets mutch higher presure, than estimated. A powder like Norma r1 or bulseye only has a bulk density of .45grams pr ccm, compared to riflepowder with an normal bulk density of .95grams pr ccm. The maximum presure you can get out of werry fast pistolpowder and a 100%fillingrate is about 8000 - 9000bar, while a riflepowder theoreticaly can produce a presure of about 20.000bar | |||
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I've seen pictures of blown Savage, Remington, Browning and Mauser actions. They prove nothing. Also your pressure rating for blowing up a mauser action compared to others is pure bullshit and you know it. They are way too many M98 actions made over such a vast stretch of time, there is absolutely no way to come up with a definitive number like 90000 psi for all M98 actions. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I ame always amased about the reactions from people, when they are introduced to informations, that dont match their "religion" Of cause our tests is not sientifical, as the results doesnt match, the common native religion. But with my limited expierince of rebuilding 15.000 m96, and about 5.000 m98, i have had a few chances to test several in hydraulit presses, and several in highpresure blowup tests. There were diferent makes, and different mfg years, brands warying from Oberndorf Mausers, DWM mausers, Radom, Amberg and also a cuple of post war civil FN mausers. The problem for all of them is the lack of casehead support, leading to casehead leak, leading to diferent degre of breakage. But of cause all those tests is pure bullshit, as the results doesnt match the commonly told faritales. Also the comparing of presures needed to blow up a m98 is pure bs, as it was performed using identical barrels, on all testactions, and gradualy increased loads, fiered in all testactions, and if the action survived, it went on to the next higher load. But you dont need to listen to that kind of bs, as it is delivered from a pure ignorant sob, who just test, instead of listening to farietales | |||
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I said once and I'll say it again. It's pure BS and you know it. You haven't rebuilt 20000 guns either. That's a line of BS too. Funny thing is I'm hardly ever amazed at the crap I read on here. It's not a "religion" for me, I'm just separating the wheat from the chaf. Take it down the road. We all know you're full of it. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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It appears to be an Ankara large ring marked 1941. | |||
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The case projects out of the barrel about .110 as best I can remember. A high pressure test of a 98 winds up being a test of the unsupported case head. If a wide variety of Mausers were tested with the same powder charge and same brass using the same barrel the results would tend to be uniform. That is the case head would pop at the same pressure. Damage to the rifle might vary but who cares, at that point your eyes are all that matter if you are shooting it from your shoulder. | |||
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Hi Terry You acts like a true beliver, or religius fanatics  If confronted to something oposit than what the (mauser)bible tells, you starts calling the mesenger for a lier and so on. If you dont have the fantasy to imagin anybody rebuilding 20.000 military mausers into huntingrifles, you are welcomed to look into our arcives stating when, from whom and to whom, those rifles were delivered. I can inform you that it hapened in the period from 1982 up to 1995, after that we have done basicaly newproduction. Btw. dont listen to Ireload2 as he is also filling you with BS, in the form of logic and wellknown facts (to those with basic knowledge of firearms) But again they are also nonbelivers A good advise would be, go out and buy a few mausers, in std calibers, then test them with moderate overloads, then you can come back and tell what you have expierienced. You might have lost a bit of faith. But on the other hand Paul Mauser did actualy do a lot of inventions in the line of adding passive safety to the m98. It might be because he lost his one eye due to a leaking primer, on an early model. So even that the strength or ability of the m98 to handle high presure is highly overestimated, the m98 offers a lot of passive safety, when shit happens | |||
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By the numbers you posted, working a 5 day work week you would have to build 5 hunting rifles a day without ever taking a day off for 13 years. Time to hoist the flag!  I'm not a true believer or religious fanatic. I made a statment that the action may have very well protected the shooter by the way it was designed to came apart, and you chimed in with all your wild exagerations and mis-truths. I'm just calling it like I see it. And BTW, this ain't the first time either. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I ame sorry to spoil your day Terry. In the mentioned period 4 people worked in my company, we stripped the old military rifles, turned the barrel to a sportercontour, drilled and tapped the recievers, forged the boldhandle, polished the parts, and blued it all. Beside that we did manufactuer new stocks for the rifles, also we produced new triggers or safetyes for all the rebuilds. Besides that we also produced about 3000 stocks for other rebuilders, and also for factories in scandinavia. I must though admid that it was an industrialiced production, with a bit of equipments, as automatic 3 spindeled copyingmasihnes for the outer countouring of the stocks, combined with cnc routers for the inletting and a bit of sanding on the stocks. For the barrelcountouring we had a hydraulic copyinglathe capable of turning a barrel every 1.5 min. This combined with a lot of fixtures and drillingjigs, resulted in a productiontime of 18min pr triggerassy. 1.2 hours for the metalwork, and about 1hr pr stock. The rest of the time we dazed in the sun  Because of the werry high laburcosts and taxes in Denmark, one has to be a bit more energic and lazy than a US residence. I could be offended by your calling somebody a lier, but i would rather give you the benefit of lack of knowledge and expierience. If you continue, i might invite you to come and se what we are dooing today, where we has become way more industrualized. Today the laburtime of a stock is less than 15min inletted, checkered sanded and oiled. An action form solid 2" bar is about 28 min on a unmaned multitasking mill-lathe, a bolt is about 17min unmanned from bar | |||
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If you think you have any control over the kind of day I'm having it would only be one more thing you are sadly mistaken about.  It's easy to see from your last post, I'm sure you put out a great product. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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My thoughts on rifle building: As far as amount of labor is concerned, it's kind of like sex...The longer it takes (within reason) the better the results.. | |||
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Yes, and in the 14th century, everyone believed that the earth was flat About the sex thing, 2 min and 3 month is equaly bad You can also compare modern manufacturing and handmade, to digging a 3ft deep and 2 mile long trench. Using an excavator to a manualy operated schowel | |||
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Or maybe the comparison could be a finely crafted hand made rifle to a mass produced piece of crap. Probably a lot more valid. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I dont know what you do for a living, but i am quite sure, that your knowledge about how overloads effects m98, and about modern productionstecknique, is diplomaticaly expressed rather limited. Where would modern orthopedical surgury, with artificial hibbones and knees be without 5 axis mashinery, left alone with a man with a file. Please welcome to the new millenium, from your past in the dark ages of oxdrawn wagons, where mens were men, and the buffalo roamed. You might take it in small steps, as sutch leaps might be frightening | |||
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This is without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read today. You are comparing the art of fine rifle building to replacement hipbones and oxdrawn carts?  That's just stupid, but it kind of fits your profile. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Jørgen, Most of these guys can't comprehend the speed and precision of a modern machine shop. I have worked in the orthopedic implant, aerospace and semiconductor equipment industries. All of of these industries are much more lucrative than any small arms manufacturing enterprise. I have seen pallet storage and retrieval systems with hundreds of pallets serving 50 HP 30,000 RPM 4 axis mills capable of producing a 32 RA on all surfaces using all carbide tooling. These mills can hold close to true position .001 while doing this. There are only 2 firearms parts that are remotely unusual. One is the barrel and the other is the stock. A double square bridge Mauser receiver of almost any configuration could be made in less than an hour, but it does not pay well when the machine needs to make $250/hr.... | |||
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Hi Ireload2 Dont ruin the day for the belivers Why do you find stocks remotely unusual in this tecknology. We do produce them on full 5 axis mashinery 6pcs at each setup 3 on the left side fixed by vacum, and 3 on the right side in a negative form of the side produced when fixed on the right side, then it runs unmanned, dooing the complete outer counture, the complete inletting, and the checkering on both frontstock and the pistolgrip with palmswell. All is done in full 5 axis 3D, all that is needed is final sanding gritt 320 and 1000. We have for the production of actions and all parts 1 Mazak integrex combined lathe and 5axis millingmashine with barfeeder and partcatcher, a similar equipped Okuma Multus, some more basic 3 and 4 axix millingmashines, and a couple of cnc lathes. To reduce the costs pr hour, ½ of the mashinery runs 22 hours a day, basicaly unmanned, except 2x1 hour for maintaning, and toolinspection, all mashines are equiped with toolload detections systems, automaticaly toolmeasuringsystems. Generaly it is posible to keep all tolerences within 0.02mm or 0.001" over a 24 hrs period. This 22 hours 7 days cykle reduces the real cost of eks the mazak integrex to about 50$ pr hour including laburcost and tools.(it is a mashine to about 600.000$, and expected writedown period is about 5 years) And yes this mashine would be capable of producing mauseractions completly finished with broached raceways and duble squarbridge with tolerences unknown for the time when they were originaly made. But from a modern production point of vue it would be just as interesting, as to start producing Ford model T | |||
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Wood is not a truly stable material. Even if you produce it to tight tolerances it will warp, twist and bend. It will also change dimensionally due to changes in moisture content. On top of all that you have the potential for splintering of edges. Yes you can produce it to a high level of precision but you will have some fall out due to the nature of wood. | |||
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Jorgen When you did the high speed production of rifle stocks, what type of oil finish did you use? DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Shit....I've seen Jorgen complain about everything from flat top checkering to 98 actions....seems ,,,Jorgen that you have an inside track on all the gun knowledge in the world...Why, you must be at least 135 years old!...Best regards Duane Wiebe | |||
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I would have thought the gasses would escape through the gas vents and down along the raceways? Can you explain where I have gone wrong, please, jørgen? (I do not have a Mauser action to look at right now but I can go and see one tomorrow). Regards 303Guy | |||
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It is not a high speed production, it is only 1 person oiling batches of 50-100 stocks at a time, repeating oiling and handrubbing in an endles circle. The oil used is linseed oil, with some alkanaroot in, followed by a cobaltdryer during the final proces. The proces takes about a week, but by working on so many stocks in a cycle, the actual labour time pr stock is less than 5 min. | |||
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The problem or what ever you call it is mainly atatched to the versions with a C ring. On the versions with a H ring like many of the FN, you are right the gas is vented down along the left raceway. This prevents the increasing in presurearea, but also removes one of the passive safetydevices build in by Paul Mauser, after becomming one eyed. On the C ring models, the part of the boltface that is not supporting the casehead, because of the CRF gimic, is rotated to the left, when the bolthandle is locked down, Now you have enclosed the front of the bolt by the Cring on the left side, and the partial rim on the boltface on the right side. Now when the casehead puncture to the left, the brass will flow until stopped by the C ring, the right side is still intact, this leads to an increased presurearea going from the internal aerea in a std case of about .75 cm2, rising up to about 1.8 cm2 on the boltface because it is sealed by the C ring. Later on in the process the lugs generaly sets back, resulting in a new leak on the right side, where the extractor now is blown out. A m98 is actualy pretty safe in case of a caseheadleak, as long as you stays on the rear left side of the reciever, but standing on the rear right, is some kind of exciting. So it is not advisable for a lefthand shooter to use a right hand mauser action | |||
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Dear Duane Do you have a problem when knowledge or long term expierience is adde to a debate. When comments is not like an endless line of "praiss the lord and ahmens". You know and every body else with just a limited knowledge af stockshaping and checkering knows that the excample you refer to about flattop checkering, was a pitty excample of mediocre craftmansship, and a lousy sence of design, what was done to that stock. The picture showing the original stock, with nice lines, and what the poor customer got bach according to a rather misshaped forarms, and as i said a mediocre semifinished checkering. About the m98 actions, it might be unplesant for you to be confronted with some testsresults (that you to a degre should have done yourselve), shows that there are some limitations in the miracle of the unbreackable m98 action. As i always sayes about the m98 actions: They are fantastic actions, for the time when designed, and initialy produced. But there are so many more or less lousy productions out there, using poor piss pot steel, and with tolerences measured by a dutch wooden shooe. But on the other hand there also excist a lot of well manufactured m98, with a reasonable decent steelquality, when used for what it was designed for. It might stand for mutch higher loads and calibers, as original intended, because of the overdimentioning of all parts because of the designer and manufactures lack of ability to controle steelquality at that time. Basicaly the steel used in those actions are low carbon steel, with limited or no crome, moly or vanadium, in the rawmaterial, this leeds to parte with the strength mostly acheved by casehardening and overdimentioning, and with no or limited toughness. So please take a m98 for what it is, an excelent design more than 100 years old , often produced in varying qualities. Do not try to make it a miracle, or a religius icon. Put it in line with Ford T, and a grey Ferguson. Most riflemanufactures, has started their carriere by working on m98, some got stuck, and others has mooved along. As previus mentioned I also started by rebuilding tons of m96 and m98. I always found the craftmanship on the Swedish m96 to be miles better than avarage m98 less than 20% are of decent quality, if you look at surfaces, steel and tolerences. I also acknowledge that the m96 has some limitations designvise | |||
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Dear Jorgen: I am curious. Did you have assays done on the Mauser steel (Krupp forgings most likely), using core samples of 1896 and 1898 Mauser receivers and bolts to determine the actual chemistry of the steel used? If you did have steel assays done on the old Mausers, how did it compare to more modern steel as used in modern actions? What were the differences in tensile strength for example? Moreover, Jon Speed's Mauser documented proof testing numbers do not conform to your assertion that 90,000 psi will blow up a Mauser like the wrecked one in the pertinent photographs. I would have to dig up my notes, but if I remember correctly the Mauser proofing was near 90,000 psi at the factory. This is a lone example, but I used an old P. O. Ackley load, and expanded a 7x57 Mauser AI Winchester Western case head from a nominal .466 to over .500 in a WW-I Brno Mauser. I had to open the bolt with a mallet. No gas hit me, and there was no damage to the action. I think that amount of case head expansion shows a load over 85,000 psi, but I am no expert on brass metallurgy. Back to my example. I unscrewed the barrel after extracting the case (the bolt and extractor did extract the case by the way), and re-measured the headspace. No measureable increase in headspace. Also, I have sent this same action off for destructive testing, and will post the results in approximately two months. My last question is how does the Mauser 1898 action not support the entire case head? The barrel in an 1898 Mauser surrounds the case up to the extractor groove. A Model 700 Remington bolt will encircle the extractor groove and case head as will a Mark V Weatherby (I have owned Model 700 Remingtons and Mark V Weatherby's), but under catastrophic brass case head failure the thin steel at the bolt head that encircles the brass case head is destroyed anyway. I've seen the aftermath of this destruction on a Model 700, but fortunately not with my Model 700's or Mark V's. Your assertions do not comport with my research nor my experience albeit limited. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear Jorgen: Thank you for your response. I reviewed my notes, and I was incorrect as to the original Mauser 98 proof loads. Jon Speed said that many of the Mauser 98 proof loads were in the 4200-4600 atmosphere range, which I think converts to the high 70,000 to low 80,000 psi range. I still find it intriguing that your friend found the Mauser steel assays to resemble mild steel, but a steel analysis that I have seen from Maryland, USA shows a core sample of a 1913 DWM bolt and receiver as similar to modern high strength low alloy. Also, the Germans made artillery pieces, naval guns, etc. that did not blow up, although I do not know the pressures of artillery rounds. Neverthless, I should think that their steels for small arms manufacture would be up to the same standard as field pieces and naval guns. This would be a logical conclusion, considering Mauser's size and reputation. I am unclear what you mean when you said the actions "went off at" and then included a pressure number. Did you mean that the brass case failed at 90,000 or 125,000 or 145,000 psi? My research indicates that the brass case fails at around 85,000-90,000 psi. The Remington 700 and Mark V have plunger ejectors. Those ejectors would collapse at those pressures allowing the brass to expand into the ejector hole drilled in the bolt face. In my mind the case head would then not be supported sufficiently at that point, causing rupture and a gas leak. Lastly, all my research concludes that the belted magnum case will fail at the same pressure as a standard head case. You are right that the small primer cases with thicker webs can take more pressure. Moreover, Lazzeronni cases will take higher pressures, since they are more heavily constructed. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Jørgen , Keep pimping Schulz and Larsen. Welcome to the new gun messiah, to continue the religious allusion that you have been using here to tout your products. I can see how your brilliant marketing - sorry - unadulterated pimping is selling your guns and getting people hooked to the idea of buying them.  It might help you, BTW, to stop fantasizing from your wheelchair. I guess you get bored sitting there all day. Mehul Kamdar "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry | |||
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OK, so it's a Schulz and Larsen that is supposed to be so superior to the M98 and only takes minutes to make. Well, the time per rifle and per stock claims certainly make sense now. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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