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True Christian fundamentalist are a non-entity as far as the political spectrum goes. The term was invented by liberals, (yes those free thinking, tolerance preaching types) used to brand anyone who disagrees with them. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Jorgen Please let us know how to ID one of your rifles, because I sure as HEll don't want to end up with one of them. | |||
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My experience with blown Mausers has nothing to do with any testing. I was hunting with my 7mmRemMag when it blew up on me. The rifle was built on a 1945 Mexican Mauser. The cartridge held a max charge of IMR 4350 behind a 140gr bullet. I had been shooting this load for over 20 years before it let go. I pulled the trigger on a nice doe. The next thing I knew, I was on the ground. My ears were ringing and my face was peppered pretty good. My beautiful AAA Fancy Fajen stock was in three pieces and the action was accordioned. The magazine floor plate blew off, and the only round I found from the magazine was on the ground bent double. The bolt face had a very big chip out of it. It broke through the middle of the firing pin hole and ran through the middle of the split lug. The entire bolt was flashed with brass. The homely Mauser gas flange on the cocking piece saved my eye. There is nothing wrong with building a fine custom rifle on an old Mauser. It is, however, a good idea to get it heat treated. I didn't. My bolt needed it. Lesson learned. | |||
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You dont need to be afraid  The chance of you ending up with one of them, is as big, as an amish ending up in a Porsche  | |||
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Hm. Not that I would disagree with your caution, but allow me just to add that not every steel used in some military Mauser action at some time in some country is well suited for later heat treatment, and that an over-hardened low carbon steel action is *much* more dangerous than a too soft one in case of a catastophic failure. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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I ended up with a lightly sporterized RPLT. 42 politiriffel. A mix of a Mini-Maybach and a horse carriage, so to speak. ;-) And that formidable bear trap of a plunderingsbart magazine bottom plate, ewww... okay, Americans might feel more reminded of a snapping turtle. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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this thread qualifies for the "AR Threads That Decayed Into Logarithmic Decline In The First Dozen Replies And Then Self Perpetuated" archive. | |||
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How have I lived so long shooting Mausers, must be a miracle.. I have never seen a mauser fragment, but I have seen other fragment including the pre 64 m-70 that came apart like a handgranade with a tremoundous overload of bullseye (full case). That same load merely puffed a Mauser up like a baloon and it split the barrel a bit but it did not fragment. end of story..I shoot Mausers and I still love the M-70 i just don't over load it. Kesie Kimble did these tests for me many years ago when I lived near Alpine, Texas. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Why are many of you americans all black and white, with only limited sence for details and nuances. If one makes a summary of this debate it could be as follows. A m98 of a certain make and mfg year has blown up, luckily with only minor injuryes, As generaly hapens when most m98 blow ups. Info is given that CRF often leads to casehead rupture at lower overpresure than PF rifles. This rupture can in situations leed to more dramatic failures on M98 than expected, because of the increased presure area. To discuss M98 generaly, not beeing specific about make and mfg years, is like discussing what is highest, a thundercrack, or the Eifeltower, or the statue of liberty. M98 varyes from the moost poor piece of shitt, up to excelent, strong and wellmanufactured actions. The heattreatment og recasehardening of m98 with unknown steelcomposition, might wery well be a degre of lottery, as it can make some of them brittle, and too deep recarburized. In many situations this heattreatment can also lead to warped actions. A percentage of the best of the actions is certainly worth rebuilding. Also another percentage is not worth shitt. Statisticaly there would happen more blowouts on CRF rifles in standardcalibers, as on decent PF rifles, because of the tendency to let go at lower presure on the CRF. But good M98 with all safety factors intact, will handle this blowout decently. As on all products there is both pro's an con's. So gather as mutch info as possible, and make your own decicion. But please spare me for the "religius fanatism" practiced by some of the believers. And dont disclose info by the argumentation," i never heard about or expierinced" "All experts write the opposite" What brought mankind from the stoneage up til today, is the ability to find and evaluate new info, no matter how unpopulare at the moment | |||
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jorgen, How do you pick a "good" Mauser for rebuilding from one that is "not worth shitt"? Is it a roll of the dice, or are some varieties (years, makes, etc., etc., etc., ) inherently more or less suitable due to the steel used, the method of manufacture, the design, or other factors? That said, are you saying that you would advise avoiding Mausers as a base for customs, or are you just advising being more discriminating in the selection process? | |||
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I would look at make, mfg years, surfacefinish, tolerences. Ability to keep acceptable slop, after polishing to acceptable surfacefinish. I dont intend to make any ranking on m98. That should be up to the current rebuilder, and not a former. Please just let the ranking be honnest, and detailed. I ame absolutely not advising to avoid excelent m98 actions for more demanding customprojects: As long as the custombuilders knows what he is dooing, and don't reduce safetylevels below acceptable levels, Just saying "It has ben done before, and i havn't seen it fail yet" Avarage m98 is fully uasble fore standard rebuilds. Many late ww2 m98 actions, Spanish mid 50th m98 are noth worth the efford. Yes bee more discriminating and selective on m98, and dont use them abowe abilities. And if you can accept the rather sloppy and wobeling boltcycle you can hunt hapily with your m98 for generatoins.If you have a nice beautifull customized m98 and lowe it, doo yourself a favour, Dont try to cycle the bolt on a new Sauer 202, a HVA 1900, a Colt Sauer 80 or 90, or similar acctions. As they would infect you with a naging feeling of the m98 beeing a little rough | |||
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Jorgen, how do we acertain what is or is not safe in regard to work done by the M98 custom rifle cotttage industry? Someone please explain what the acceptable levels are. When they reHeatreat a mauser, and/or modify it(removes metal from the lug abutements) to accept a longer cartridge, do they then give a safe and reliable guideline as to the highest pressures you can run through it?(many folk want to get the best vel out of their chambering) and what sound method did they use to arrive at that figure? How does one know where to "stop" when it comes to metal removal from behind the lugs abutements? Surely that metal is there cause Mr.Mauser required it to be, or do todays smiths know more about the M98 than did Mr.Mauser? It amazes me how some folk get all caught up in many $1000s' worth of fancy figure,rust blue,gold inlay, engraving,integral barrels etc, on old mausers but live with such a grey area of receiver integrity. Its something like fussing over the fabric on the Titanics deckchairs, but not knowing or giving much of a ratz about the state of the boilers. There one thing for sure ,you can buy a new chromemolly magnum or kurz mauser and know %100 that you can run factory 300weatherby or 300wsm without raising a nervous sweat. but it would also be a shame to see all those older well made mauser actions just collecting rust and dust. | |||
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There are many persons on this forum who has a lot of knowledge. Some of our members are amogst the best of their trade, and it is very valuable to be amongst them. Duane Viebe is an example, I am always grateful to be able to study his work and read his comments. Jørgen is actually another, IMO. His spelling and grammar is not impressive, but english is not his native tounge after all. He is the man of Shültz & Larsen, and I have said numerous times he should make that more official, but it is his choise not to do so. He has been in the gunbuisness for 40 years, and have a vast experience on many things. He has blown up more actions in study than most of us has built, and he -his company - has built as many mauser as he claims. He has factory mashines were we use regular tooling, no wonder it takes shorter time. He never claimed to have made custom guns, but they would look pretty good next to a Savage 110 out of the box, and surly be of better quality. His new guns are very well made guns, even if they stil have some problems, as most new models have, but are taken care of. I will advise to look behind his apperance, and read what he writes. One does not have to argue, or agree, but he knows to much to be ignored, IMO. His knowledge about mauser actions and their actual strength is immense and has not been prooved wrong by anyone. His knowledge of European gun industy is vast. His knowledge about american custom gunworks, on the other side, is sadly lacking. Until he can see that, I fear he will not be taken seriously no matter how many proofs he can show us. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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We wish there was more information based on testing from that "SOB". Some more interesting insights you might want to share? | |||
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That might be, but the same is also true for many Americans here. So, I will always try to look at the substance, rather than at some imperfections of form (unless these latter would actually obscure the meaning). Regards, Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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OK, I was not refering to Duane Viebe in this setting for any other reasons than that his work is what amazes me most on this board, NOT to set you two up against each other. But since you brought him in, a man that has longer experience in custom making than you have in the gunbuisness, I am flabbergasted to see that you think you know more about custom checkering than he does. And then expect answers? Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Bent at no time i have said anything about knowing more about customcheckering. His rather patronizing remarks about judging flattopcheckering. Refered to a what i on a freindly day would call mediocre. And i ame pretty shure that he if he looks at the pictures on high resolutions would fully agre. And i ame also sure that he would never have let it out of his own shop, With what i have seen of his work, i ame more than 100% shure that he will agre. As one dont need to have more than a few month of checkeringsekspierience to se that the debated flattop checkering as excecuted was only a mediocre semifinished standardcheckering, with varying linedistances, varying linedepth, varying linedirections and also about 5 lines of misalignment under the wraparound checkering on the forarms. Defending this work, and partonizing about people who dares to question, seems pretty strange. Knowledge is not entirely tied up to how long you have ben dooing a thing, also to how often you have done the thing. I ame pretty shure that Karen wo does/did the checkering ar Dakotaarms, has an equal knowledge about checkering after 10 years, as a person who checkers 5-25 stocks pr year in 40 years. Also the lady who used to checker for Kimber, and now freelance, could have gained the same expierince.. If one becomes so fantastic that one is raised abowe the pitty mob, that one dont feel to answer, so bee it | |||
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Jørgen, I am truly not comfortable with this situation, as I might be looked upon to be fighting Wiebes battle. I am NOT - he is well capable of doing so himself, should he care to - I just like to have things straight. At no point were Wiebe commenting the gun in question, but about flat-top checkering by itself and your comments about it. FTS, which, done after gunmakers guild standards, require considerably more of the carver than regular sharp-point checkering. Which is quite common knowledge. The pics in question were way to low of quality to judge at all, as light and angles were very misjudging. We (Wiebe not included)were just cheering on a buddy who wanted to show his new rifle. But you had to tell him it was crap. If you wanted a debate about flat-top checkering versus sharp-point, do you not agree that a new thread had been a better solution? Back to topic, on the obsolete forum Sluttstykket.com you published a list over the actions you had tested, and at what preassure they broke. I would be thrilled to see it published here. That would have been a mutch better argument than to write that you have made 20000 guns - IMHO. Cheers, Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Folks, do remember that jørgen is doing his best to communicate in a secondary language. It must be very difficult to catch and understand the nuances of a different language which carries with it subtleties that many of us first language folks miss and misinterpret. What makes it more difficult is that we do not have facial expressions and voice tones to communicate with over the Internet. Then there are cultural differences and so on. For example, I bet he has no idea what I see in the Lee Enfield! So, ...  That we all understand!  Regards 303Guy | |||
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We will do something that`s much better Bent. Next time I`ll slide by a hardware store I`ll take some pictures of Jørgens contraptions, and post them here  Personally I`d rather have Duane Wiebe  doing one gun for me completely blindfolded, than having jorgens 20.000 pcs "works of art" .DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Bent About the flattop thread, I primarily stated that this version of a "flattopcheckering" was not more than a mediocre semifinished standard checkering,and praising it as beeing excelent was way out of proportinons. Also i estimated that work of THIS quality should be done in less than 1 hr. If you reads carefully what i also wrote, i stated that a correctly executed flattoped checkering with even linedictance, even linedepth,paralel lines in same angel, paralel sides, and not a standard v shape, finished with no overruns and a beautifull frame, THRULY IS A WORK OF ART, AND REQUIRES HIGHLY SKILLED PEOPLE DOOING IT. And i ame shure nobody disagree. In this thread i think Duane pretty mutch opened the balley by the following post
About me complaining about m98, you se if you carefylly reads my posts, that i ame very nuanced, and supplying info on some details where the m98 is handeling presures less impressive than modern actions. I also warne, that there is a huge varyation in m98. Those kind of info seems to interest a part of the readers, as well as it sets of a portion of the rather "religius belivers" ( i guess that if they where muslims, i would have had a fatwa over my head now ) About me telling that the picture in the flattop thread was mediocre, is a bad habit i hav, that when a praising gets quite out of proportions, i have a tendency to do as the boy in the "emperores new clothes" and silently say "he don't where no clothes at all" | |||
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Jens what is up with the hazing of jørgens work, i know you are a bit infatuated by the us guys, even when they take your money. but allthough jørgen choses to be the grinch who stole cristmaz in attitude,that dosent mean his product is bad, actually i havent found one S&L that weren't as accurate and well made as any other production gun. actually the S&L is in the top 10% of production rifles worldwide, but that is what they are production rifles. i for one would love to see a costum gun from the guy's at S&L, it surly would be a sight to see. with the wishes of a very fine day peter | |||
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I guess you have a point . Can´T compare apples and eggs. Jørgen is competing with Howa and AKs....Duane is snatching customers from H&H  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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No one has managed to come up with a design that is a significant improvement over the Mauser K98 design in my opinion. It is fairly expensive to produce a true Mauser 98 action, as it requires many machine operations, and therefore most of its rivals have tried to economize by making it cheaper. The Mauser 98 did incorporate some features not found on most competitors: the bolt stop, the third lug, and its magnificent, foolproof safety. Then there are also other features that are better, such as its excellent gas deflection and controlled round feeding system. The bolt stop, while somewhat inelegant, is as functional as every other part of the Mauser 98 action. The third lug is just an additional safety measure in the event that the two front locking lugs give way and may rarely come into play. I prefer an action that uses 2 large front locking lugs as opposed to those that use tiny multiple pins/lugs at the back of the bolt. The K98 safety cams the striker back out of contact with the sear, and blocks it with a steel pin. Various solutions were offered, with the best being the Winchester development in 1936 for its new Model 70. This “wing-style†safety moved forward and back, and is easier to use as well as being scope friendly. The Winchester safety retained the Mauser safety’s three positions: Fully to the front allows the rifle to fire and the bolt to cycle; in the center, the striker is locked but the bolt can be cycled to load and unload; fully to the rear locks the striker and bolt in place, so it cannot be knocked open accidentally. No design is better than its gas deflection system and its safety system is also one of the safest, albeit not very scope friendly. Another advantage of the Mauser 98 is its controlled feeding and extraction. A careful man can work the bolt on a Mauser 98 in absolute silence in the presence of large, dangerous animals without alerting them. This is not the case with the Weatherby or Remington, which always rattle as the cartridge pops loose. The size of the Mauser extractor claw is much larger than the small, spring-loaded extractors of rival designs, and as such, it is more robust and trustworthy to guarantee an extraction to be able to fire a second shot on a charging beast. The Mauser action will feed correctly with the rifle held at any angle or even upside down; it is not usually a consideration, but it might be if the hunter has been bowled over. Peter Paul Mauser has given us a masterpiece for his time and we are still using it more than a 100 years later in custom rifles. Today we make improvements to the safety and trigger, as both were designed with a military application in mind, and not primarily as a scoped hunting rifle. In 1898 scopes did not really feature as a viable item; it came only into being many decades later and became popular during the 1970's. Military triggers are understandably hard and hunters today prefer a smooth and light trigger that is adjustable. This is done with relative ease and fairly inexpensive. Warrior | |||
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See, Jørgen, you never wrote that. You simply claimed that " If one would make a flattop with vertical sides on the lines, that might be another issue", on page two. If you had wrote the above top quoting in your first contribution in that thread, people would not be thinking you are an ass. It is you, who have to read carfully what you write. And I am not saying that to put you down, but as an adwise - I am well aware of your knowledge and have supported you on this board numerous times. But you writhings can be as black and white as you claim the americans are. I am not talking about spelling or grammar, but about clear expression. About your complaining about the M98, for all your nuancy and supplying info, you also say that you would never consider an old action for a custom project. Which is a bit silly, and probably not what you were thinking inside your head. Like saying that you would never consider driving a Ferarri, as it is to expensive to crash. As for Wiebe not being very serious about you... Well, you had it comming. Maybe he has a "bad habit" too? Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Hi Warrior Of cause you are correct about manny of the pro's you listed about the in many ways excelent m98 system. Sadly, you missed the con's
The funny thing about costs on m98 is that there is mainly two types of m98 in production today. 1: weery lo end rifles based on actions produced in former eastern europe, as Zastava and Brno. 2: werry highend custom projects using newly manufactured actions like Johansen, Hartman & Weise, Granite mountain etc. So the excuse about high costs in production, doesnt match 100%.But to some degre. Today on higghtech mashinery, it would not be 30% more expencive as many other actions.
It is GOOD but overcomplicated, and doesnt always function as intended (try to find it on the pictures of the blown action)
the safetyes on both m98 and m70 is, IF correctly installed werry safe, but many users find them more dificult and hard to operate, therefore maybe using them less part of the time.
Have you studied, evaluated and tested all other gashandelingsystems, on all other designs?????. The m98 gashandeling system is excelent, but quite some is totaly evaluated better.
There is nothing silent on a m98 If noice is a problem on other, just tuch the case with a finger, while cyckeling the bolt. The clawextracter is surely larger and stronger than most other, but a large percentages of unaltered clawextracters has broken if one tried to feed a round extra without putting it totaly in the magasine. So generaly a good and strong desighn, but with some limitations. Another limitation, is the "problem" about handeling highpresure on standardcalibers, without casehead puncture.Witch statisticaly leads to more casehead blowout than on other types. The gimic about reloading in many positions, is found equaly and even better on many actions with singlestacked detachable magasines. Who often also has the ability to reload way faster and easyer, even if still at the shoulder
I totaly agree But on the other hand the world has also mooved along, giving us opportunity to buy newer designs, who offers way more value for money, and absolutely not to forget a way smoother operation. A little provocation with a smile. Using a M98 is as driving an older farm tractor Using a modern well manufactured rifle, is like driving a Mercedes  | |||
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SST- Did you find the cause of your blow-up? A friend in Oregon had something similar happen, while firing a rifle and load he had been using for decades. Turned out to be a barrel obstruction. Yours sounds more catastrophic. Just damn scary! Would really like to hear what you discovered. RG | |||
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Jack Belk told me it was probably due to poor heat treatment of the bolt, a problem common to Mexican Mausers of that era. He explained to me exactly what my bolt looked like before he even saw it. | |||
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jørgen, Which newer designs would you prefer over the Mauser? Please list them in order of your choice. Thanks Warrior | |||
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Sorry about that, my mistake. I am glad I was wrong! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Jorgan, As we well know, when the case head blows in the 98 most of the escapeing gases go to the left. This is where the case head is unsupported as the bolt is rotated 90 degrees. Naturally the gasses are going into the LH lug raceway of the receiver. M-98 receivers generally are not ported at the breech like the m-70 and others. Do you believe it would be better to port the receiver of the 98 at the breech on the LH side to get the pressure out of the front ring sooner. Do you find that ported receivers get less damage from case head rupture. or Do you find that a port size of 2.5mm effective or ineffective and basically overwhelmed at the point of rupture. When Grisel was into makeing 98 actions he ported them all. I find the port disspleasing to the eye but in the end could actually help save the eye. Timan | |||
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Would appreciate if you could compare the Sauer 202 and the Schultz & Larsen against each other. Would find it educational as we do not bring the Schultz and larsen into RSA and so we really do not know it well. The Sauer 80/90/202 are being imported but very few people have them. I had a Browning FN in 270 Win and it was a class A rifle (precision made). How would you rate the latest Sako 85 against the above 2 makes. I would value your opinion. Warrior | |||
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Hi Warrior As previus told, i dont like to bring S&L into the discusion, as i ame hardly neutral, but now i try breefly. Both Sauer 202 and Schultz & Larsen, are reasonably wellmade rifles of the Fatbolttype, and designed with a Switch barrel system, where the bolt locks directly into the barrel, This to solve headspace issues. Both rifles has a singlestacked detachable magasine, This is on those designs the most reliable way of solving the problems of handeling diferent cartridge diameters and length. One could also use a dubblestacked detachable magasine, but it would result in a lousy feeling when one tryes to load the dubbelstacked magasine in the rifle, when using short cartridges. The singlestacked magasine, witch follows the choice of caliber, can be produced, so it controles the cartridge fully until it enters the chamber, and then because of the rather closed action, it can be loaded in all positions. The Sauer 202 doesnt have the full benefit of the barrelswitch system, as there are 2 diferent actionsizes, 1 for atandardcalibers, and 1 for magnums, further they have 2 diferent bolts for standardcalibers, 1 for 22-250 and 243. this is with a single row of 3 lugs. Another for normallength of standardcalibers, this bolt has 2 rows of 3 lugs (total 6) The S&L m97 handles from cal. 22-250 up to 458 WinMag and 375Ruger on the same action and stock, with 2 diferent bolts, 1 for standard casehead dim, and 1 for magnums. Personaly i dislike plasing the safetyrelease inside the triggerguard in front of the trigger, as on the Sauer, because of the posibility by mistake, to both release the safety and fire, with 1 moovment of 1 finger (or branch) also i prefer a 3 position safety. The safety on a m97 is 3 positioned, and positioned as a traditional sidesafety, but a bit more covered as on many other makes. In my evaluation both models, has an exelent strength against highpresure. They handle apx 80% higher presure than CRF rifles in std calibers before blowing the casehead. Because of the fatbolt, you have an almost 100% sealing backwards against leaking gas. Under catastropic failures many tests showed that the action would split in the front recieverring, and the gas would go upwards and forward, combined with some going down in the magasinewell. Generaly leawing the shooter unharmed. Both models hawe a superb boltcycle, with mutch less than 2/1000" in slop, combined with a almost 2" guidelength, when the bolt fully to the rear. According to pricing the Sauer is generaly from 25-50% more expencive for practicaly same level of finish. The Sako 85 It has with no doubth one of the best magasinesolutions ever seen. The triggersystem is also outstanding. Compared to the former Sako 75, the key word is a more productionswise rational design (a little more Tikka spirit) This combined with a few gimics to lure the customers, like the highly markedet Controled Round Feeding, witch in sako 85 is only lacking casehead support. I find the 75 supirior at this point. To be bold there is prackticaly nothing as gasleakprotection of those rifles, combined with the CRF unsupported casehead, i find it not so exelent. The boltcyceling is good, but not as the 2 abowe. I have always ben a Sako admirere, but find it a little painfull to se that all changes is a little for the cheaper, and not using teknology to make it closer to perfect. Maybe it is because Sako focuses on the US marked, where production rifles should be sold for 500bucks in the millions. Accurasy on all 3 rifles is excelent . Hopfuly with a little + for the S&L because of its cutrifled and lapped barrel I hope i has been pretty objective best regards Jørgen | |||
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If porting a reciever should have any significant meening, it would be on Fatbolts and Savage type rifles, with an set of extra lugs for blocking the raceways, and only with pretty large holes. basicaly during minor leaks as cracked cases punctured primers etc. A punctured primer should also be vented out of the sides of the bolt, idealy multiple plases. Also the boltshrout, should seal the back of the boltbore. Best Regards Jørgen | |||
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Could we see a picture of this to better appreciate it. Are these lugs at the front of the bolt and how strong are they? Warrior | |||
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Interesting that a gunmaker who has not been able to convince his own country's 300m shooters to buy his brand of rifle - and Schulz and Larsen have been touting their new match model without any major sales success - comes in and acts as if he is the ultimate repository of knowledge on firearms. No wonder Joergen prefers anonymity as far as his own business is concerned. This dog won't hunt as they say in several parts of the USA.  Mehul Kamdar "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry | |||
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Jorgen, Thank you for the reply. If you get around to it someday, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on specific varieties of Mauser actions and their relative strengths and weaknesses. | |||
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