The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing How often is (bolt) action truing really necessary?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
Rick? Think? Naahhh..... Why bother thinking when he KNOWS everything already? | |||
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| One of Us |
I understand that, I’m asking wnat you guys use as a “ruler“ to make the determination that your receiver falls within the tolerances that you feel are adequate for your needs. Do you take measurements or do you just sit back and look at it and say: Well, everything looks pretty straight to me! I will be the first to say that all rifles do not need to be totally blue-printed in order to have acceptable accuracy for hunting or even casual target shooting. But I am hearing people saying that even cleaning up and squaring the receiver face prior to installing a new barrel is a waste of time and money. That’s a ridiculous view in my opinion. Don’t you want a good solid fit for a new barrel no matter what you are going to use the rifle for and no matter what you expect in the way of accuracy? | |||
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Here's the deal, unless you have 1 square surface from which to obtain the other critical measurements of the job i.e., shank length, bolt nose recess, extractor cuts, headspace etc., you will not know how far in, or, out the rest of the action is. Whether the customer is spending under $100.00 (here we go...  ), or, over $1000 for the barrel job, I firmly believe you do a disservice to the customer if you don't provide him with the best and most complete picture possible as to the health of the job. Regardless of the price of the job, the first thing that I do is fit a mandrel in the bolt tunnel, dial the mandrel on centers, and square the face of the receiver. It takes very little to do this and it is covered in the cost of the job. From here, all other measurements are taken and the customer is informed. It is the customers decision where we go from here based on the most accurate information I supply. | |||
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I think its hilarious that a guy would trust a smith enough to barrel his rifle but doesn’t trust him enough to take his advise on what needs to be done to do the job properly. They way some of you guys talk I’m not sure why you even bother to install a new barrel, hell, the old one still sends the bullet down range doesn’t it? | |||
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100% failure rate?   opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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craigster, when your folks decide your old enough to have expensive tools maybe you can buy some dial indicators and a depth mic!  Call any gunsmithing shop that does barreling and action work (except for Mark Skaggs) or call the techline at Brownells and ask them how square factory actions are. Or call the company that makes Brownells threaded mandrels and ask them how much slop they have to put in the threads of their mandrels so they will fit the majority of receivers. | |||
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Well, jeffe...they are probably as square and in line as a stock coming off your duplicator, but I expect a bit tighter tolerances than you do I guess.  | |||
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The only thing Rick thinks is that he's an expert on everything and that his shit doesn't stink. | |||
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I am ambivolous, I guess. The guy that does my barrels for me has had carte blanche to do what he thinks is necessary. I doubt that he's squared many but they all shoot well enough for me. That may be more a comment on my shooting than anything else but I got out of the "nth degree accuracy" rifles about 15 years ago and just mess with sporters now. If I wanted another bull-barrel PD rifle I'd go for the whole enchilada. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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tiggertate, Setting up a receiver and taking a slight facing cut to clean up and square up the face of the receiver prior to installing a new barrel is hardly something that is only done on “nth degree†accuracy rifles. | |||
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Yeah, but it's what YOU, Rick, stated is the PROPER method for installing a barrel Where you disingenious when you stated that this was the proper way to install a barrel? Perhaps there's more to it (like facing the bolt) that you over looked or hadn't heard of?
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opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| one of us |
Hey 9.3x62, I'd say you can get that kind of service from some Smiths, but not all of them. The only way to find the right one is to talk to them, or get recommendations from people you trust. Cost is not always a true indicator of the results. No, those are two separate things. Even if the Receiver Face is not perfectly square, the Recoil Lug will snug up to it. And it can be bedded that way too. Don't have an idea how far out of square it would have to be to create a stock problem. But a Termite Food stock would show the results of non-square Recoil Stress quicker than the excellent Synthetic Stocks. And squareness also has to do with how easy it is to get the Sights to align with where you want the bullet to go. Irons were easier than scopes to get aligned until the Burris Signature Rings came along. Today you can have a Receiver that is out of square, mis-aligned Scope Base holes, and a skewed barrel, but still get the Scope to align. --- Good quest for information on your part. There are additional "Variables" that can also influence the decision(s) about how much work is needed. Your own shooting ability and how you develop your own Loads. For example, I can't shoot as well as I could say 40 years ago. I have a number of factory rifles that have had nothing done to them other than Adjusting the Trigger and they do fine for me. But, I still do a bit of long distance shooting and I know the limiting factor is the Trigger Yanker, not the equipment. If your shots will be inside 400yds, and you "Practice" at that distance, then a good old factory Remington, with the Trigger Adjusted will "typically" not need anything else except cleaning and properly prepared Loads. | |||
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Interesting thread (with the exception of some childish scatological references - where's the "Ignore" button?). I'm in the process of trying to decide how much gunsmith work to have done on a couple of new M70 SS action. The very first thing I want done is to have the 'smith give me an evaluation of the action and recommended work based upon what I've explained I'm trying to do. These two actions look and feel good (very smooth) to me, but I have heard a lot of talk about poor USRAC quality towards the end, and I recognize my Mark 1 Eyeballs are not calibrated to the level necessary to determine quality - that's why I hire a 'smith(!), and I expect to pay for that evaluation. If he says, "Hey, pretty good action," then we're good to go. If he mumbles something indeterminate, I'll send him another one and we'll do it again. I don't expect factory perfection (good thing), but I do want a reasonable baseline from which to start what will be a pretty expensive (for me) project. Something I don't expect: cost effectiveness. When I put on a new barrel, or have an action smoothed, or lugs lapped, or trigger smoothed and safety timed, I'm not changing the rifles basic, cheap, ability to send bullets downrange. I'm changing only its character, and only a very few people will recognize the improvement. So what? I'm one of them. Jaywalker | |||
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My 2 cents. Why wouldn't you have it done, cost? Well it depends on your budget and the rifle you are working on. If you are just replacing a worn out barrel on old faithful, I probably would not have it done. If I were have a custom rifle built on a factory action, than absolutly I would have it done. Scientifically no action is perfectly true, if you continue to measure using greater and greater accuracy you will eventually find some degree of deviation. The factory assembled actions are just that and are put together by gun factory workers not gunsmiths. These features are never checked and the variation from gun to gun is going to be great. That is why many people want to use a custom built action (GMA, Hein, and others), that are machined from solid, built one at a time and leave the shop square and true as possible. | |||
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I don't believe I said it was. You need a class in how to avoid words between the lines that don't exist. All I'm saying is based on a reasonbly large sample of bolt guns that I've watched/shot/owned/borrowed/loaned/pawned/unpawned the average receiver (what this thread is about) is good enough for less than nth degree purposes. Of course there are bad ones out there but how many as a percent of total production? That is the issue, not what are preferred gunsmithing practices. But my experience is based on rebarreling more than buying a new action and starting from scratch. Every gun I rebarreled was shot (by me) in some other caliber first, sometimes for years. So I knew what the potential was or wasn't and if it shot well before, it was safe to say it would shoot well again without worrying about receivers and bolt faces. The vast majority of bolt action rifles I've owned the last 35 years got down to between 1.0 and .5 MOA with the standard hobbyist tuning like bedding, floating and one or two crown jobs. I don't recall a single instance of being told I had a receiver so bad it needed work (other than messed up scope base holes or such). Maybe 5 out of a hundred would never shoot to an inch or inch and a half for reasons that could not be identified with the rifle assembled. Based on that experience as a consumer I have to say that the average or even most receivers will work fine without the work 9.3 x 62 asked about. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Hey 9.3x62, Actually I understood what you were asking. The Remington Recoil Lug is a "Stamped" part and it is not "surface ground". But it doesn't matter. The only way it could be damaged enough at the factory to matter is if it got an accidental double strike in the press. It is as useless to go to a surface ground recoil lug on a hunting rifle used inside 400yds as it is to put a Jewel Trigger on it. | |||
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tiggertate, Good advice...I’ll do my best to follow it, and perhaps you‘ll do the same!  | |||
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I'm dyslexic so sometimes I get it backwards. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I know the exact answer to this question, but I'm not going to tell anybody...........cause its a super secret. Billy, High in the shoulder (we band of bubbas) | |||
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I installed a new stainless barrel in 22-250 AI on a Win 70 today and took notes specifically to address this subject. Upon popping the barrel, I stripped and thoroughly cleaned the action, and went to taking measurements. The face of the receiver was out .008 with the bolt tunnel. After lathe truing the face I measured the remaining points and noted that the bolt lug recesses were out a combined total of .003 between the two. The bolt face was pretty true and within .001. I dialed in the bolt body and indicated the bolt lugs separately and they were offset .002 from each other. The bolt nose was off .005. I lathe trued it so that I could maintain a close fit between the bolt nose and the breech of the barrel which assures as much support to the case as physically possible. The factory barrel had the phony assed feed ramp looking bevel, that blown actions have come to know. After seating Brownells center loaded bolt lapping tool against the newly squared receiver face, it was a fairly simple matter to bring the bolt lugs and their recess into alignment. Other than a minor amount of lateral slop in the bolt body, this action was good to go. It is my opinion, that this action was too far out of whack to let slide. The new barrel, a Lilja, deserved no less an effort to assure good results. The customer will be out with it this weekend and I will be awaiting his report. | |||
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Does truing a reciever face
require rebluing the reciever or is the cut face covered by the barrel shoulder. Thanks, Rob | |||
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Usually, the truing of the receiver face is done at the time a new barrel is installed. Most of the time the complete job gets refinished if the barrel and receiver are of the same materials. Todays job involved a Stainless barrel and a Chrome Moly receiver. The customer will apply the appropriate cammo paint to hide everything on the 22-250 AI. Unless otherwise requested, a little Oxpho blue will cover what the barrels shoulder doesn't. | |||
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It’s nice to see that some smiths out there take some pride in their work, rather than just screwing a barrel on, head spacing it, and sending it out the door. | |||
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I try to live by a saying my late father always used,If its worth doing,do it right the first time  | |||
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I used to work on cars allot and I don’t recall assuming that only expensive cars or race cars required gapping the spark plugs when installing new ones. Every new spark plug I ever took out of the box had some amount of gap there...should I have assumed that because it looked “close†to the proper gap and because the car was only going to be driven by a “blue collar†guy back and forth to work that I didn’t need to check them and gap them properly? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing How often is (bolt) action truing really necessary?
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