The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing How often is (bolt) action truing really necessary?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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one of us |
For a MOA hunting rifle I don't feel it is necessary. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Moderator |
if you open the bolt face to a larger round, it's a given, if thhe gun shot well before, it's not required, and if it's an unknown, running a facing tool over it is not a bad idea, provided the cut is VERY light if it's a commerical action, with the same boltfacec size, don't bother, as Paul said, on a hunting rifle jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
It ain’t like lapping the bolt lugs is a huge expense or something that requires a BR gunsmith to do for you. It’s pretty easy to check yours by just applying some layout fluid to the lugs and working the closed bolt up and down a couple times to see how much contact you‘re getting. I buy brand new 700 actions and blue print them and I have yet to find one that has a good mating of the bolt lugs to the receiver lugs. I don’t think you “have to†lap the lugs...but it ain’t that big of a deal to do it and it does give you much better distribution of forces for lock up and during recoil. | |||
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| one of us |
I was viewing his question more to the squaring vs a simply lapping. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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| One of Us |
We're only doing it to make more money. I mean hell, if you can hit a deer sized animal at 100 yards, while breathing hard and in under less than ideal conditions, then how accurate do you have to be?  | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Me too...  | ||
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| Moderator |
Rick, squaring the bolt face, not lapping the lugs, \ or, you want to reword this one trick pony to squaring the bolt face rather than lapping the lugs? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
well, ‘keffe’...I gues my reading skills have totally gone to pot because I read his question as “lapping bolt lugs†not squaring the receiver face. | |||
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| One of Us |
After my lapse in reading comprehension,  , I would only make one comment. Why would you not want to face/square the receiver face if you were installing a new barrel? | |||
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| new member |
Hey Malm, Thats a classic I will keep that one | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
If it is necessary, I'm willing to pay for it; if it is not necessary, I'm not willing to pay for it. That's why I posed the question: How necessary is it? I agree that lots of lugs need work, but I am less convinced that the standard Remchestger needs bolt face and receiver truing... My personal experience with trued versus untrued receivers is generally pretty much the same - both seem to shoot just fine. In fact, some of my most accurate (custom barreled) hunting rifles were not trued. So, I was just wondering about the experiences of others...  | ||
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| One of Us |
It would help if you would stick to just one thing. “Blue-Printing†the entire action and just squaring/facing off the receiver when installing a new barrel ain’t the same thing. I consider squaring the receiver face an integral part of installing a new barrel (included in the price)...but that’s just me. | |||
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| one of us |
Rick- Do you ALWAYS insist on nitpicking shit apart & arguing with everybody?? A question was asked, you misread or assumed something different, guys noted the *original* question, you change the subject to try to back up a weak argument on your part. Other than your post, I don't see "blueprinting" anywhere in this thread. Seems that every thread I see you in, you're fighting in circles just for the sake of arguing.  | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Okie dokie... not too sure where you're getting all this... I think you put it best yourself:
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| <9.3x62> |
Thanks for all who replied (to my question). I appreciate it... | ||
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| One of Us |
Some smiths include facing the action and lapping in the lugs with a barrel job. If you are putting a new barrel on get the smith to give it a once over, before he completly trues it. A go from there The two I deal with keep your lug and replace the old one with a double surface ground factory lug. A new Tubb or Holland will only run you $30 bucks send on along they install the new lug free. Truing the action on a barrel job to me is like realigning your vehicle when you get new tires. Ask questions and only have done what is needed. A sporter weight deer rifle getting a face lift, face the action, new recoil lug, lap the bolt lugs and call it good. Should be easy sub MOA. A varmiter to shoot bugs holes in the next county with, might rebore the raceways, sleeve the bolt, bush the fireing pin ect, ect.... Tell your smith what you want and ask a ton of questions. | |||
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| Moderator |
Rick, the subject is STILL bolt face, not receiver face. We are all wondering why you nittpick and argue to the point of amazement BTW, here's your supporting post, where you do indeed believe squaring the receiver is part of installing a barrel... but the subject is BOLT FACE
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeffe, I see you are still having a hard time reading things as they are written. Rick, allow me...
Sounds too me like the discussion includes the receiver face. | |||
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| one of us |
Hey 9.3x62, I'd lean toward the GunSmith taking pride in his work and not wanting a rifle to leave his place that only has "partial" contact on the Lugs and it can effect accuracy if bad enough. Plus, it can be a SAFETY issue if you tend to load your cartridges with MAX Loads all the time. Lets say someone asked to look your new rifle over. And imagine he noticed the Bolt Lugs were only making partial contact. Lets also imagine he didn't say anything to you about having noticed it, but asked you who did the GunSmith work. He would probably get the impression that the GunSmith didn't know what he was doing - rather than guess you instructed the GunSmith to leave it alone. Well..., there is an excellent reason for that - there is NOTHING WRONG with the factory recoil lug. If anyone believes going to a "Surface Ground" Thicker Recoil Lug offers them an advantage, then they should definitely use one. That said, unless the factory Recoil Lug is warped, it gains them noting but a "lighter" billfold. Oh yes, and the ability to say, "My rifle has a Thick - Surface Ground Recoil Lug." | |||
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| One of Us |
 Thaine "Begging hands and bleeding hearts will always cry out for more..." Ayn Rand "Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here, we might as well dance" Jeanne C. Stein | |||
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| Moderator |
Malm, If you actually wish to know the man's question, He's on the thread, ask 9,3x62 directly Feel free to poise a question to the man directly. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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one of us |
Well, I'm not a gunsmith so my opion is pretty much useless and I won't bother everyone with it. How's that for a first from tiggetate? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| one of us |
Yep some Smiths square the front of the reciever. Some don't. I don't think that the majority of those that suggest it are trying to rip anyone off. (sure there is always a bad apple) For the most part I think it is pride in making everything right before it leaves their shop. There is nothing wrong with having it done. I've had barrels installed both ways. In a normal weight hunting rifle I've never been able to tell the difference. Likewise I've had $130 barrel out shoot ones costing 3 times as much. And yes expense barrel that out shoot cheaper ones. My buddy had his Harley engine blueprinted it made him happy I didn't. For the way we ride we can't tell the difference. In a normal hunting rifle a normal shooter will never tell if his action face was squared or not. My opinion and a couple $$ will buy you a cup of coffee. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Wow. This is really an impressive display of a thread gone awry.  Let me try one more time  1) I agree that lugs often need lapping (see my first post). IMO, lug lapping is very often a good idea (even if only for stress distribution reasons) - a sensible fix for a common problem. 2) Now, do "out of true" bolt faces occur as often as poor lug contact? 3) Next, do "out of true" receiver faces occur as often as poor lug contact? | ||
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| One of Us |
Yes to #2 and #3. Let me add, the only thing consistant between receivers is that nothing is consistent. | |||
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| one of us |
Ah, now I have an opinion. Out of true bolt faces are uncommon but cocked bolt faces due to uneven lug contact are common. That's why the Neiska Bay action has the "Borden Bump" at the rear. If you roll a fired case on a flat surface and can see wobble in the base, you have a problem that needs addressing. If it looks true when you roll it, it's good for most applications. In other words, the wobble in the bolt will usually be greater than the tolerance in the bolt face. Out of true receiver faces (to a degree that it matters) are not nearly as common as uneven lug contact. But all receiver faces are by definition out of true to some degree. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
My 2 Cents. Seems the question that I'd like answered is this. IMHO, no one hit at it yet. Many beat around the point. Of all the real gunsmiths on this site, reading this post... How many (percentage wise maybe) factory stock receivers/actions have you seen in your experiences that were grossly out of square? Thus warranting the additional tweak (plus cost) to achieve allignment perfection. v/r | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
I guess I'd prefer a smith that would do if it needed doing and not do it if it was superfluous.
So can I then presume that that there is nothing wrong with the squareness of my receiver or bolt face? | ||
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| one of us |
ceg, I was with you until the last line. You have two conditions in your question; grossly out of square and perfect. 100 different smiths will have 100 different standards for those two conditions. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| one of us |
I'm in a business where people ask me the same type of question; namely "what do you think it needs?". The answer depends a great deal on what I understand my client wants. If you don't understand the tolerances well enough to give a smith your minimum and maximum, engage him some conversation about what he thinks is appropriate for the style gun being built. Or if your a perfectionist, go ahead and spend the money regardless. It'll make you feel better. Those are the type of clients I look for. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
CEG does deserve a beer for bringing this pimple of a thread to a head. Let me narrow it further to tiggertate's point. Are they "out of square" enough to make 3-shot MOA unobtainable? | ||
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One of Us |
I've installed barrels on M-70, M-700 L-461, 1917 enfield, '98 mauser, commercial mauser, Savage Bolt, and all in all about thirty of them in total.....all for myself as I rarely do work for others. Never have I seen an action that I believed needed squaring. However I only do hunting rifles and varmint rifles. Most all of them shoot very well and occasionally one just demends I re do it.....but not because of the squareness of the action. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
As a consumer, not a 'smith I would say it has been rare that a gun of mine couldn't be coaxed to 1 MOA (3 shots) with all the common tricks like bedding, floating, trigger work and/or handloading. Rare has been the bolt gun of mine (over many brands and probably 200 guns)that wouldn't perform to 1 MOA so I vote for rare is the action so cockeyed that the gun isn't capable of 1 MOA for that one flaw. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| one of us |
I am tigger's kind of customer. I almost always say, "true and square everything and slap a Krieger on it, please." Why? Why not. No kids to feed, and I am content driving a beater and living in a beater.  | |||
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| one of us |
Got any serious soil erosion you need fixed? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
I would like to know where you guys are getting these squared up actions...and also what methods you use to make your determination that they are in fact square. I have 17 actions right now, six of which are brand new in the box, and not a one of them had the receiver face, receiver threads, bolt face, locking lugs, etc, all square to the centerline of the receiver. I know what procedures and measuring tools I use to make that determination...what do you guys use? | |||
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| one of us |
Rick, the question is what is an acceptable tolerance, not is it "square". That's the crux of the issue. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
I am the Lawndart kind of guy. I want it done because it might assist me in my endeavor at itty bitty tiny groups. Having said that, the first true gunsmith I visited was held to a high standard. I took him a Sendero that (before I burnt the barrel)consistently shot .2's at 100. He assured me that it would at least shoot as good, if not better. HMMMM? Pretty vague I was thinking. Anyway, it now easily shoots into .1's and teens and actually now only if I screw up does it become a 1/4 incher. Fact!! No, whatever he did it worked! Here, I was just curious what the industry standard (if there is one) for deviation was to be tolerated by a professional who is taking money in for a service, to achieve those itty bitty groups. v/r | |||
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| One of Us |
Hey Rick, Did you ever think that they all can't be messed up but maybe something else is? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing How often is (bolt) action truing really necessary?
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