After checking gunsmithing prices for the various things that need to be done to an "off the shelf" rifle, especially given patch quality control, I've about come to the conclusion that you're better off buying a custom rifle in the first place. Any thoughts?

It truly depends on what you want in a "custom" rifle.

If you want to take a standard rifle and toss the stock and have a fancy walnut stock made it's easy enough to do.....add roughly $1,000 to the price of the gun and have at it.

If you want things like barrel bands and quarter ribs, and banded front sights and possibly a octagon barrel.....you might as well build a custom from the start.

One can also look to the custom shops from Remington and Winchester for custom rifles but they're only semi custom.

I'd venture most custom rifles are started by first buying a complete rifle and stripping it for the action and going from there. Pre-64 M-70 or post war mausers are typically the actions used and these are almost exclusively started that way.

In short there's no real answer to the question.....what do you wish to wind up with is the question.

There is NO answer to this question, there is NO answer to is a "custom rifle worth it". Each individual has to answer this question for himself and his answer is often formed by how much money he is willing to spend. I will say a person does not need as much as he wants to enjoy the hunting/shooting sports but we always want more than we have.

Everyone, except a true manufacturer, has to start with an action and a barrel made by someone else, so I’m not sure what your definition of “custom†is.

If someone is in “business†the idea is to make money. If a customer buys all the parts from someone else and wants a gunsmith just to put it all together for him, the gunsmith is going to charge a bit more since he isn’t making any money off the parts. This doesn’t make him a jerk...it makes him a businessman who is trying to feed his family.

D’Arcy Echols doesn’t build the actions, the barrels or the stocks for his rifles...but he turns out a “custom†product. Yes, I know he designed the stocks, but McMillan makes them for him. He buys the same parts that are available to anyone else out there, he just seems to have the ability to put them all together a bit better than most.

Thats a loaded question but I would say for a hunting rifle its much cheaper to do all the work you need on a factory rifle..Glass bed it, trigger job, is about all you need unless its a big bore then it needs to be tweeked for feeding, cross bolted in addition...

A good custom rifle should start at $3500 and go up to about $6500. IMO anything over that dictates a double rifle to me, but thats just speaking for myself...

If you want a true custom Rifle, I believe you can get one from Fred Wells, or from Waffenbrekehein, who will both make you exactly what you want so long as its reasonable. By true custom rifle, I mean one where the maker makes the action and the barrel and all components.

I'm building a not fancy custom Mauser. With a decent barrel and a JRS stock, I'll have $800 in it. The stock ($140) will be replaced later with one that will be around $800. I believe that if you look around and choose the best wood/finished CDL/M70, or whatever factory and have it 'accurized' by a gunsmith that you will have about the same money in it as I do mine. It'll probably shoot many loads under 1". This is what I expect mine to shoot. My friend bought a CDL, bedded and floated it and adjusted the trigger. That cost him around $100. It Shot 1"@ 100yds, 2"@200yds and a little over 3"@ 300yds using sandbags off a truck. In my opinion it is also a beautiful gun. capt david

I'm with captdavid. When you're 5'6", just having a stock that fits and handles well for you is indeed custom. Every manufacturer wants to take a 6.5 or 7mm-08 and whack off the barrel to 20" and throw a tupperware stock on it and stainless steel. Now you have a loud, ugly gun (IMHO), with increased recoil and ballistics inferior for the cartridge. What was the point again?

I have an Ithaca (Tikka) LSA 65 30-06 that fits me better than any gun I've ever owned, on par with my Sako AIII Deluxe. I'll grab those LSAs when I can find them.

My wallet will always determine what "custom" is to me. Right now, custom, to me, means a 6.5x55, with a 23" barrel, Mauser or mauser-type action, deluxe stock, jeweled bolt and tuned action, with crisp trigger. 4X or 6X scope shooting 1" or less at 100 yards.

I just picked up a used Howa and will remove the nice laminate stock. Reblue the barrel and action, and bed/float it into a 30-06 or 270 Vanguard Deluxe VGX stock. Not great, but not bad and the VGX stocks are already cut to 13.5" LOP, which is damn near perfect for me (and most honest hunters). Then drop the 06 action into the laminate for a nice loaner or inclemant weather gun.

I'll pay for most of the labor and I'm figuring about $300 and I'll still be under $1,000, including scope.

Wanderer, I think I know what you mean, buying a rifle that will be excellent quality and accuracy, as opposed to the typical quality of the major makers out there for 400 to 700 bucks.

I would suggest you look at a couple of options of what I would call semi-custom. Ed Brown and HS Precision make rifles of superb quality/value, what I am thinking you mean by buying a rifle and having a smith 'get it up to speed', I can tell you Ed's stuff is really great right out of the box, and HS Precision is a lot of rifle for the money also. Take a look and see what you think.

Good Shooting--Don

gnmkr, it's funny you wrote that. After I finished my post, I was thiking just that. But I was thinking more like two guns and my pockets aren't as deep as your tag. Still, I bet I could get two nicely made rifles, but the question then becomes - what calibers?

My first instinct is 6.5x55 and 7mm Rem. Perhaps not the vogue cartridges of the day, but they would take down anything I envision hunting for. That said, my primary reason for not going above the 7mm is recoil and my guess is that a custom gun, of similar weight and caliber to a factory gun, would probably produce less felt recoil. Hmm...

This depends.

You have to have a clear vision of what you're trying to achieve, then you have to be really careful about component selection, and then even more careful about who you entrust to do the work.

A really well thought-out and well-executed custom rifle can be far more cost effective than a stock production rifle. But if you compromise on component quality, go with an inept builder, build a novelty rifle instead of one that has wide capability, and you might just find that all you've done is dig a deeper hole............

AD

Great insight folks, thanks.

If you truly want to be cost effective buy a pre-64 Model 70 30-06 in good condition, put a 2.5-8x Leupold Vari-XIII on it with Talley rings and bases and spend the rest of your money hunting.

Jeff

I wish we could get every gun magazine in the world to publish this whole thread in the same month, so all those interested in rifles couldn't avoid seeing it. This is the best reasoned, most moderately stated, yet broad enough coverage of this subject I have read in many a moon. Congrats and thanks to all you guys and to AR for making this thread possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Skibum:
If you truly want to be cost effective buy a pre-64 Model 70 30-06 in good condition, put a 2.5-8x Leupold Vari-XIII on it with Talley rings and bases and spend the rest of your money hunting.

Jeff

That's exactly what I did, except it wears a 3-9x40 VX-II. Best money I ever spent on a rifle.

SDH, I find alot of humor in your below post,

Sell 87 of your rifles, take the $ and order one truly custom rifle from a really well known maker. You won't be there unless you spend at least $10,000 and get a walnut stock. Once followed, you will Never regret my advise.

The only thing your 10K Custom {walnut stocked} gun is doing is giving the owner, bragging rights and a much lighter wallet plus putting a butt load of "extra" cash in the gunmakers pocket. Below are a few questions for you reguarding this 10K Custom

1. Will it shoot 1/2 to 3/4 groups with factory ammo
2.Will it feed any better than my Custom 3,500. gun
3.Will it kill game any better than my gun

I think its great if someone want to pay 10K for one of you guns, they are a work of art but a 10 custom is not the only option. jimmyd223

I have never considered having a custom rifle built for me. As far as I'm concered, custom includes gunsmiths building a rifle based on off the shelf parts and engineering them into a complete package. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing I can justify are reworked off-the-shelf rifles. A little trigger work and a bedding job and "accurizing" runs about $300 on top of the cost of a rifle, along with a scope and bore sighting, a sling, some ammo, and a gun case a normal factory rifle "package" can run $1500, and that's plenty for me to be paying, especially when it can shoot sub-MOA and generally fit me very well.

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
Sell 87 of your rifles, take the $ and order one truly custom rifle from a really well known maker. You won't be there unless you spend at least $10,000 and get a walnut stock. Once followed, you will Never regret my advise.
SDH

This is exactly what I plan on doing in the next few years. The biggest problem is deciding which maker and which caliber. I figure if I still want to spend 5k+ in two years it will be worth selling the rest of my guns.

I had a nice rifle that I spent 3k on and though it shot better than me and was what I ordered, it never quite lived up to my expectations. I cut a few corners to save money and the lack of a "really nice" wood stock and the matte finish will always for me detract from the gun. The friend I sold it to couldnt be happier with it.

My collection is not as large as some of you but I have a good 10-15 guns that mean nothing to me now. If I could do it over I would have 3 nice rifles and 1 nice shotgun with a nice set of tubes.

YMMV but I would suggest thinking hard about what you want and buy it regardless of price. You will be happier in the long run.

John

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
Sell 87 of your rifles, take the $ and order one truly custom rifle from a really well known maker. You won't be there unless you spend at least $10,000 and get a walnut stock. Once followed, you will Never regret my advise.
SDH

I think this could be pretty accurate, but first you have to have had and handled enough different rifles to be able to know what you want in that custom rifle and be able to sort through the makers to find one whose ideas line up with yours.

And then you don't want to get rid of those 87 other rifles because someday you or your kids or your neighbors may need them.

Steve

Gunmaker

That long flowing grip on that Dakota Single Shot is just lovely!!!!

I figure most people get paid what they are worth.. Someone working at McDonalds gets $5.15 Doctors make more than $5.15 for a reason. One of them has marketable skills the other does not.

The one exception is 90% of the Lawyers in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Ropes:
I figure most people get paid what they are worth.. Someone working at McDonalds gets $5.15 Doctors make more than $5.15 for a reason. One of them has marketable skills the other does not.

The one exception is 90% of the Lawyers in the world.

Don't forget Ken Lay!

one more thought......a cheap "custom rifle" will run you about $2,500.....some up to $10,000 and more. Yes we're talking bolt action custom rifle.

No matter what you get, that rifle will disappoint you dramatically if you wish to sell it.....they never bring anywhere near their original price.

If you buy an original rifle and take it to a good smith for "basic upgrades" such as polishing action parts, trigger refinement, glass (or pillar) bedding and barrel floating/pressure point establishment, and other upgrades the resale value of the gun will be nearly minus all the money you spent on the upgrades.

On other words, a highly tuned M-70 will fetch about the same money used as a standard M-70.

If you spend $5,000 on a custom it'll be hard to find someone to shell out $2,500 for it used.

Most of the home made rifles I own will not bring what I have in them and I do almost all my own work.

If thrift is an issue I suggest you buy the "off the shelf" rifle that best suits you and have a smith glass bed it, free float the barrel, establish a good trigger for you and install a recoil pad if you want. Keep it to a minimum and only add the things you can use.....

quote:

On other words, a highly tuned M-70 will fetch about the same money used as a standard M-70.

If you spend $5,000 on a custom it'll be hard to find someone to shell out $2,500 for it used.

Hmmm...but if you spend $5000 on a custom from a KNOWN BRAND NAME gunsmith, you should be able to do much better than $0.50 on the dollar.

Mark Penrod, D'Arcy Echols, et al... Anyone sold any of their rifles lately or see any on Guns America for comparison?

Ray is right, thats a loaded question. To me a "custom" rifle is simply a rifle that is assembled from various (mostly aftermarket) components with a vision and a goal in mind. A rifle that is not "off the shelf".

Cost effective is a whole different aspect. But looking at many of my rifles and knowing what sort of garbage is found off the shelf thesedays I basically agree with the original post. It "can be" more cost effective from a function and reliability point of view. I have several Mausers that are put together like the proverbial brick shit house, are every bit as nice as a new rifle and have costed me no more to build than a new Remchester. But being willing to do some of the work yourself certianly helps in the cost effective standpoint (especially if you like wood stocks).

When it comes to building a cost effective custom the real ticket is finding a 'smith who does good work for a reasonable price. They are getting hard to locate but not impossible. Most of them that are worth their salt are quite proud of their work and the prices reflect it, likewise many that are the most affordable arent real concerned with quality.

It also helps to have a sound plan, the most cost effective Mauser by far are those with a .473 diameter case head. Lots of little things like that which can add up to huge savings in the end without compromising on quality.

quote:

Hmmm...but if you spend $5000 on a custom from a KNOWN BRAND NAME gunsmith, you should be able to do much better than $0.50 on the dollar.

With all due respects friend.....does D'Arcy make $5000 guns?

I'd agree that a well known artist' work will hold it's value better.....I thought his work was in the $10,000 figure.

Here's the title of this thread:

quote:

Custom Rifle More Cost Effective Than Reworked Off The Shelf?

Wanderer is asking about cost effictiveness.

For those than can affort the work of such well known artists the word "cost effectiveness" is not an issue. Thay want, and can afford, and therefore deserve the very best. 99.99% of the rest of us are not in the ballpark when it comes to owning rifles from such well known and talented artists.

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
Sell 87 of your rifles, take the $ and order one truly custom rifle from a really well known maker. You won't be there unless you spend at least $10,000 and get a walnut stock. Once followed, you will Never regret my advise.
SDH

I don't agree that one must spend thousands on each gun to make them effective. What with the tens of millions of guns that perform well each day and maybe one in a thousand is a custom gun it does not compute.

As to the orginal question the lowest cost is to buy a factory rifle that you like and try it out. From there use management by exception to what does not please you.

Some here are still trying to make a point that one must spend $6000 on each gun and thats just not the truth for most people.

Savage, you preach from a position of ignorance, not experience........

Here's how you get you money's worth out of a custom rifle if you're a hunter:

The number one rule is, FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION. An artistic masterpiece that won't shoot or feed properly is nothing more expensive junk.

Invest in the best components you can possibly afford, and the services of the best performance-oriented custom riflemaker you can afford who thoroughly tests, adjusts, and corrects the accuracy and function of his product before he sends it out the door.

If money's an issue, invest first in things of substance and not fluff. In other words, you're better off investing in a match-grade barrel, a pillar-bedding job, and range-time rather than English scroll plus engraved, gold-inlayed sheep on the floorplate, north/south screw slots, and half-octagonal barrels.

Once you get your proven masterpiece, you get your money's worth by years of trouble-free use, and the fact that you won't have to recycle rifles and lose money on every such transaction for the next thirty years..........

AD

Yep here we go again.

Allen Day,

I am not preaching but just advising from my experiance. Nor do I need to insult others or resort to name calling to make my points.

I think about your rants now and then and chuckle.

You sure have painted yourself into a corner by claiming that only guns worked over by a handful of craftsmen are serviceable.

In any case we agree on Partitions.

To each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

Most of the home made rifles I own will not bring what I have in them and I do almost all my own work.

Vapodog

What does that say about your work?

Just kidding. I couldn't resist.

allen, I think you hit it. This was the point I was trying to make in my post to SDH.
There are some true craftsmen that build guns that are a work of art, wood and metal but function is foremost to me, pretty is for hangin on the wall. The semi and custom guns I have had built are working guns and at times show signs of taking a tumble or two.
Taking either gun posted by SDH hunting would be to me like taking the wifes Lexus 4 wheeling

A top notch custom rifle is worth whatever it costs. IMO a factory rifle is never quite satisfactory, but a properly assembled custom rifle made by an expert will be a thing of joy. A guy only needs 2 or them, plus a shotgun. So clean out those gunsafes, turn them into cash, and get yourself a proper custom rifle.

500, so your telling us, you only have two customs and a shotgun

quote:

Vapodog

What does that say about your work? thumbdown

Just kidding. I couldn't resist.

Actually I don't think my work is all that bad.....D'Arcy it is not......but I've seen quite a few $2,500 guns that didn't measure up.....

Still I'm not fooling myself either.....the guns just won't bring what I have in them.

Yes, I know you was kidding and I can appreciate that.....my point however is that custom guns, for the most part have poor resale value as a % of original investment. The worst of them are the '98 mausers I've used. They're expensive to rework and very hard to sell afterward.

Vapodog

I see your point, but one thing I have never really understood all that well is why alot of guys think they have to get the same amount of money for a gun that they paid for it.

I have known some guys that absolutely get butchered every year when they trade their 1 year old pickups and cars in for new ones, and yet it would be easier to pull teeth than to get them to sell you a rifle for a penny less than they paid for it.

Hey, those horns are longer than your barrel!

gnmkr, Those are some beautiful rifles.

Terry

Superb work and as mentioned the pistol grips are fine art.