I have no doubt that had plastic been available, Remington would have perfected the 710 about a hundred years ago.

You made an annology. Please consult Webster.

Beyond that we are either in violent agreement or we must agree to disagree.

I have only skimmed this thread because I am very busy and have read about fifty seven others pretty much just like this one but still I feel compelled to say that no one should spend upwards of $10,000 on any rifle with some exceptions not relevant to this discussion because that is how credit problems start and pretty soon the kids have to sleep in a shelter and the wife leaves you and by the way especially no one should spend that kind of cash on a plastic stocked rifle for god's sake because no custom rifle even if it is bought with a credit card should have a plastic stock and I don't care if you're after bongo in the Cameroon because wood is so much more colorful and warmer and cuter and grainier too by the way even when soaked in Varathane and just flat out better than any kind of plastic except maybe just maybe that bullet proof stuff that they mix with the fiberglas and I agree with everyone here who has said so and pretty much but not entirely disagree with everyone who hasn't and besides that I think that art is for hanging on a wall and a rifle is little more than a tool even if it is engraved and polished up to a higher sheen than new Jaguar and who in the hell spends northwards of $10,000 on a tool anyway that doesn't plug into the wall and come with seven CDs worth of software and a very lengthy and complicated instruction manual and by the way I should add that instruction manuals are also made out of wood and not plastic and that doesn't make them somehow outdated and unable to take punishment and I can say that because most of mine are covered with brownish circles from where my coffee cups stained them as I was belatedly reading them at midnight while trying to fix some problem I could have avoided by reading them in the first place before causing the problem myself usually involving some computer or other because did anyone ever write a worse instruction manual than the kind that comes with a computer I don't think so and I've read my share and ignored even more than my share and oh I'm off topic where was I oh yeah custom rifles are way more cost effective than factory rifles but only if they're not in excess of $10,000 custom rifles and I don't give two hoots if they even have plastic bulletproof fiberglas stocks on them but speaking of that no plastic stock should be any color other than black and if you think otherwise then you and I will just have to disagree or we can blame it on communication problems and insult each other's intelligence and ancestry instead of debating the by the way incredibly stupid question of whether an off the shelf rifle even after a modicum of customization can ever measure up to a lovingly hand-crafted and utilitarian and functional and bombproof and aesthetically pleasing tool that costs $10,000 or even more for god's sake I have seen them priced at even more than that although generally with nice wood stocks and don't even talk to me about Remingtons or anything without a claw extractor on a custom rifle since everyone knows that push feeds should not be seen much less touched anywhere near dangerous game and if you dare say otherwise you and your family and their entire wardrobe will be dragged through the mud like a plastic stocked custom rifle on a sitatunga hunt which might and I do say and must emphasize might be the only hunt with the possible addition of a coastal brown bear or maybe bongo or dwarf buffalo or possibly some other exotic swamp dwelling creature hunt that I would even consider taking a $10,000 custom plastic fiberglas bulletproof black painted stocked or could I just shorten that and specify synthetic stocked but that's really sort of vague and even a little misleading especially if I'm spending somewhat on the upside of $10,000 for the damned thing I think I'd want a bit more detail than just synthetic anyway wouldn't you well I would what a loaded question and plastic or synthetic to me is just incongruous with a barrel band, banded front sight, three position safety and all the bells and whistles that a rifle could ever dream of having if a rifle could dream and don't you think by the way that if a rifle costs on the north side of $10,000 that it should do more than shoot well I sure as hell do in fact I think it should fulfill a dream and be guaranteed to shoot no matter how bad the buyer customer client's taste might be or what a god-awful hideous shot he might happen to turn out to be and what the hell do you mean by cost effective anyway and I ask that because that question could probably be an entirely new thread all on its own since a more ambiguous concept than cost effective I doubt could have been staked out as the sacrificial goat for this thread unless it was the concept of a custom rifle in and of itself because there you open the can of worms of whether any rifle is a true custom rifle if it starts with an action that was bought off the shelf since then it's just a semi-custom rifle even if it does cost way way more than a measly $10,000 and that's pretty much but not all I have to say it's just that it's nearly dinner time so I've got to go now.

quote:

I have only skimmed this thread because

That's as far as I got

quote:

Originally posted by 54JNoll:
You made an annology. Please consult Webster.

Beyond that we are either in violent agreement or we must agree to disagree.

54JNoll

I think I will be so bold as to say that we are probably in total agreement when it comes to the debate on rifles going on here...but that’s about it!

You know, I took your advice and went to Webster...but I couldn’t find anything for “annology.†Did find “analogy†though [] but I’m not quite sure how that relates to what I said...and what you assumed I meant by it.

ps...don’t ya hate it when you‘re trying to catch someone on their understanding of the English language and you make a stupid spelling error that makes you look like a friggin idiot?

I don't know of any synthetic-stocked custom rifles that go for $10,000 or more

AD

This whole thread is getting far too esoteric for my poor country-boy mind...so I believe I will depart for greener pastures!

Rick to resort to name calling would lower myself to your level. Spelling error or not you did know what I meant. Thus my communication was successful.

To all ...

I would like to add that while I prefer wood I do understand the merits of a quality stynthtic stock. While they do not represent what I like in a custom rifle they do make a nice rifle that is itself much more than asimple tool.

The point is that custom is just that. The embodiment of what the owner desires it to be. It must please no one but the owner.

Well said, I commend you on your courtesy. I might point out that Rick, while castigating you for a single spelling error and what he considers poor comprehension, made a spelling error, i.e., ...primative... instead of "primitive" himself. He also used the word ...inferred...in a context where correct usage would be "implied". Glass houses?

mrlexma

Why the arbitrary $10K figure? For a guy making $500K per year, a $20k rifle is not really any more painful than a $10K rifle. For a muffler mechanic, both prices are insurmountable.

From the riflemaker's perspective, he has more skill with his hands than almost any craftsman today, except for orthopedic surgeons and similar. Yet the riflesmith typically earns less than a plumber. I do not begrudge the man a good wage for good work, and I wish our society valued craftsmanship more than it does.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
Well said, I commend you on your courtesy. I might point out that Rick, while castigating you for a single spelling error and what he considers poor comprehension, made a spelling error, i.e., ...primative... instead of "primitive" himself. He also used the word ...inferred...in a context where correct usage would be "implied". Glass houses?

It wasn’t I who directed anyone to “consult with Webster.â€

If any of us began to count all the spelling and grammatical errors on this site I doubt we would have much time for anything else.

I don’t put my meanings to other peoples words...nor do I go after people for something that others have said. I have not, and do not, disagree with anything that 54JNoll has said ...with the exception of his mis-characterization of my words and meanings.

When I pointed out that I had not said what he claimed I had...nor did I mean what he inferred I meant...that should have been the end of it.

If that offends or upsets you...so be it be!

No, I am/was not upset or offended, I just found it a bit funny, that's all.

500 grs., I'm in agreement with you.........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
No, I am/was not upset or offended, I just found it a bit funny, that's all.

kutenay,

I also found the whole thing kind of funny...which is why I placed smiley and happy faces all over the place on my post.

Actually, what I found to be the funniest was being directed to a dictionary to look up a word that the person directing me had misspelled. No big deal, as you so accurately pointed out I misspell words all the time also...as does just about everyone else on here. I just found it particularly amusing when placed in the context of being told to look up a word in the dictionary that he had obviously not looked up himself.

As I had stated earlier in a post, this entire thread is pretty funny, to me, because there seems to be no logic or reason behind most of the arguments being posed. People are going to buy whatever they want and whatever they can afford, and why in the world should anyone else give a rats ass about it? If the guy turns around and wants to sell it to you, then you have a say in it, but unless that happens WHO THE HELL CARES?

Rifles are personal things, just like cars, clothes, food, liquor, women, etc. Everyone is going to have different preferences, needs, wants, and uses that may not be in step with those of others. That’s what makes the world an interesting place, to me anyway.

Can we do the "Leupold scopes are too expensive" one next?

quote:

Originally posted by Idared:
Can we do the "Leupold scopes are too expensive" one now?

And howabout those damned prices that Brownells and Midway charge? How dare these companies try to make a profit from selling stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by Idared:
Can we do the "Leupold scopes are too expensive" one next?

I still want to kill a buff with a 45/70

not really.

Terry

The original question was regarding cost effectiveness of custom vs. off the shelf. My short answer would have to be "Probably not".
Let's face it, from a purely functional standpoint, most "off the shelf" rifles are certainly adequate as a hunting tool. With a thorough inspection and some remedial work/improvements, they are even more so.
Any rifle which feeds reliably, shoots accurately, and fires every time is absolutely all that is really required as a hunting tool. It may, or may not, come up a little short as far as aesthetics are concerned but it will certainly do the job required of it and probably do it just as well as a custom rifle costing many times as much.
When we go the custom rifle route, we are simply making an attempt to add to the hunting experience. To personalize it and give it more depth in a way that is meaningful to us though it may not be to anyone else. The rifle and ammunition I use to shoot a bull elk (on the rare occasion that I manage to do so) is an important part of the equation to me. It is, however, meaningless to a friend of mine. His goal is to get the elk and the tool used to do so is of little importance. As long as his old Ruger 270 goes off when he pulls the trigger, it has done all he requires of it. Likewise, I can hardly stand the thought of using factory ammunition while he is not even too concerned about the brand.
Allen Day would most likely be just as effective as a hunter if he used a good functioning Model 700 Remington but he feels better using his Echol's custom. It's an important part of his hunting experience. He says he likes to use these rifles because their garanteed reliabilty means he doesn't have to worry about the rifle doing it's part. I suspect though, that at times during a hunt, he may hold that rifle, look at it, and think, "Damn! That's a nice rifle!" For him, using this rifle adds to the hunt.
So, from a cost effectiveness standpoint, the "off the shelf" rifle probably gets the nod. Modifications to this rifle can make it work better and even just as well as the full custom rifle. Whether or not this is enough is more a matter of the mindset of the user than anything else and this is where the custom rifle comes in. Both rifles perform the same function but one may do so in a manner more reflective of the personality of the hunter. If this is important to the hunter, then cost effectiveness is no longer really part of the equation. Regards, Bill.

Bill

That was an awesome down to earth post.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The original question was regarding cost effectiveness of custom vs. off the shelf. My short answer would have to be "Probably not".
Let's face it, from a purely functional standpoint, most "off the shelf" rifles are certainly adequate as a hunting tool. With a thorough inspection and some remedial work/improvements, they are even more so.
Any rifle which feeds reliably, shoots accurately, and fires every time is absolutely all that is really required as a hunting tool. It may, or may not, come up a little short as far as aesthetics are concerned but it will certainly do the job required of it and probably do it just as well as a custom rifle costing many times as much.
When we go the custom rifle route, we are simply making an attempt to add to the hunting experience. To personalize it and give it more depth in a way that is meaningful to us though it may not be to anyone else. The rifle and ammunition I use to shoot a bull elk (on the rare occasion that I manage to do so) is an important part of the equation to me. It is, however, meaningless to a friend of mine. His goal is to get the elk and the tool used to do so is of little importance. As long as his old Ruger 270 goes off when he pulls the trigger, it has done all he requires of it. Likewise, I can hardly stand the thought of using factory ammunition while he is not even too concerned about the brand.
Allen Day would most likely be just as effective as a hunter if he used a good functioning Model 700 Remington but he feels better using his Echol's custom. It's an important part of his hunting experience. He says he likes to use these rifles because their garanteed reliabilty means he doesn't have to worry about the rifle doing it's part. I suspect though, that at times during a hunt, he may hold that rifle, look at it, and think, "Damn! That's a nice rifle!" For him, using this rifle adds to the hunt.
So, from a cost effectiveness standpoint, the "off the shelf" rifle probably gets the nod. Modifications to this rifle can make it work better and even just as well as the full custom rifle. Whether or not this is enough is more a matter of the mindset of the user than anything else and this is where the custom rifle comes in. Both rifles perform the same function but one may do so in a manner more reflective of the personality of the hunter. If this is important to the hunter, then cost effectiveness is no longer really part of the equation. Regards, Bill.

This post, like most of Mr. Leepers, stands above all others. It's both a logical summary and brings new thinking to this topic.

Bill, That was a great post and one of the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
...Allen Day would most likely be just as effective as a hunter if he used a good functioning Model 700 Remington but he feels better using his Echol's custom. It's an important part of his hunting experience. He says he likes to use these rifles because their garanteed reliabilty means he doesn't have to worry about the rifle doing it's part. I suspect though, that at times during a hunt, he may hold that rifle, look at it, and think, "Damn! That's a nice rifle!" For him, using this rifle adds to the hunt....

Hey Bill, I agree with all your post except for the above.

It is quite obvious to me that when he looks at the Echols that he is thinking, "Is there any ADDITIONAL way I can possibly brag some more on this fine rifle and still be able to include in the post that anyone not using one is simply carrying trash."

I don't get the bragging part. Everyone on a forum is entitled to his opinion and Allen's is obviously that Echols rifles suit him fine. In fact they are no ways near the most expensive rifles discussed on this forum. Check out the prices on the doubles a lot of guys have if you want something to brag about!

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I don't get the bragging part. Everyone on a forum is entitled to his opinion and Allen's is obviously that Echols rifles suit him fine. In fact they are no ways near the most expensive rifles discussed on this forum. Check out the prices on the doubles a lot of guys have if you want something to brag about!

HotCore likes giving Mr. Day the business that's all

Terry

I used to work around Woodside,Palo Alto, Hillsbrough,Portola Valley and Atherton, Calif and we had a saying could always tell the new money because they had to tell you what they owned who made it and how much it cost kind of like bragging rights that went with the money. Kind of reminds me of this post just bragging rights.

I admit, wood feels better, and looks better to me. BUT...it doesn't hunt better. When I am hunting, I want to stay out all day and hunt hard regardless of the weather. I would never want to take a very expensive, finely checkered and engraved out in the woods during a blizzard, rainstorm, or boat ride. Nor would I want to drag it up the side of a tree into a stand. That is why I only own one wood centerfire rifle, and it has taken a beating.

But I think all factory rifles leave a lot to be desired, that is why not one factory rifle I own is still stock, weather it is a new trigger, matte finish or bedding, stock rifles just don't measure up performance wise. They used to when I was younger and didn't handload etc, and only shot my rifle once right before the season to make sure my scope was still on. For all the people that are still at that level, factory is fine.

If you are a hardcore hunter, or shooter, factory doesn't cut it.

There are several good points in this thread. A worked over factory will cost less than most customs. Stock factory works for many people depending on how they use it. And many stock factory rifles stand up to hard use with no modification. That however was not the case for me. When all I did was hunt deer out of a tree stand balance was not very important. Nor was heft, although a rifle that is too light has its own issues.

When my style of my hunting changed and what I hunted changed my rifle requirements changed. Although I did have one real dog of a gun during what I will term as my casual hunting days. As a case in point which I mentioned earlier in the thread. My father’s Remington worked fine for tree stand hunting for over 20 years. Once it was subjected to harder use it exhibited many failures. Would it have eventually failed anyway? Who knows. I had one rifle that cycled fine when not on my shoulder. But when cycled properly from my shoulder, with my short arms, it would stick or jam. Shortening the stock may have helped; I am 5’ 5â€. But the rifle has several other issues as well and other bolt actions of the same caliber did not exhibit that jamming tendency. It was sold. I have another rifle that has had many modifications to attempt to get it to shoot near where I think it should. In the end it will likely just need to be rebarreled. It was a gift from my father-in-law or I would have just sold it.

For my personal needs I have come to the conclusion that I want to hunt with a few really nice rifles. I know they will function properly, balance right, shoot straight, and many other things. I save the aggravation have having to trouble shoot my next factory rifle. It is a personal choice and my choice of components reflects that.

Everyone’s experiences are different and everyone’s needs are different and everyone’s tastes are different.

That is true, however, a really top notch full-custom rifle by one of the best makers in the trade, such as D'Arcy Echols, is still a sound investment from the standpoint of longterm, utterly reliable utility. I don't own a 'Legend" and am too old now to really want to go about getting one; however, for the really keen, younger hunter, they are, IMHO, a wise investment as are Leica binos, a really good backpack such as a Kifaru or MysteryRanch, a GOOD knife and boots, sleeping bag and so forth.

The value of top notch equipment becomes most obvious when you actually have considerable real wilderness hunting/living/working experience, this is different from sitting on a stand, watching a baited field in suburbia. I think that the precise description and recommendation of and detailed knowledge based on experience of hunting gear and rifles presented by Allen Day is extremely helpful to almost everyone here; it gives us insight into what actually works in REAL hunting and how much we must budget for if we want this level of gear.

I find those who are forthright about their accomplishments and the fruits of their labours to be much more acceptable than those who attempt to emulate a pseudo-sophistication characteristic of the "younger sons" of British aristocracy and deride others who have actually succeeded in life by their own efforts rather than by inheritance, etc. In short, real people do things, posers and petty, little losers indulge in "ad hominem" attacks on those whom they could never equal.

To me, "custom" is as "custom" does and what I want/need may well be different from what someone else wants/needs, but, absolute functional perfection is the crucial parameter where custom rifles are concerned. One gets to that point after decades of experience using rifles every day in the conditions of northern and western Canada.

I could not agree more. Backcountry wilderness demands are vastly different than suberbia or even many other rural parts of the US. I know they are vastly different than rural Missouri. Your rifle is only part of the gear you must take be be safe let alone successful. Scrimping on your boots, clothing, tent, sleeping bag, pack, etc can make or break the hunt as well. You might get through OK, might only suffer slight or sever discomfort, or you might suffer serious injury because of it. Before joining the Army I had the fortune of being able to work on a mountain rescue team for 6 months. I have extracted many a hiker and backpaker because they were ill prepared. Either they did not bring what they needed or they tried to cut too many corners and bought cheap stuff. Quality gear will not only last longer it performs better and will keep you safer. I could "get away" with a lot more in Missouri and be OK than I could in the mountains.

The ultimate reliablity is to be able to make it, improve it or fix it yourself.

This is the essence of self reliance.

"The world is moving so fast these days that the man who says it can't be done is generally interrupted by someone doing it."

Savage 99, how good are you at building computers? Cars? Homes? How good are you at Law? Medicine? Are you much of an electician or a Plumber?

Build a barrel lately, how about a reciever?Being able to adjust a Model 70 trigger following instructions on a website doesn't make you a self reliant gunsmith.

Chuck

Chuck,

I can fix most cars quite well thank you. As to building computers I have not tried but I bet I could do it. I have built houses and work part time in my sons business.

Electrical work and plumbing is my specialty. In particular I like plumbing. I have even dug my own wells.

"Think you can or think you can't either way you will be right."

At the moment I am shaking down a new Walther P22. I am going to do it myself if you don't mind. Even if you object I am going to do it myself.

"Think you can or think you can't................

I'm not worthy.

Chuck

I would trade a paragraph of having been there and done that for youth.

The great goal of life is not knowledge but action.

S99

My late father was a Master Plumber and I worked for him sometimes, I also worked for a Carpenter, a Stone Mason and other such trades as a "helper", I am not, however, a tradesman. My "Pop" used to chuckle about the number of jobs he would get, fixing the "repairs" of the self-deluded, self-reliant.

That is a nice picture of suburbia, maybe you should try living alone, many miles from the nearest road or human in northern B.C., the Yukon, the N.W.T. or Alaska for months at a time with one supply chopper trip during this time. Then, you might actually find out something about self-reliance and stop this foolish bullshit about doing everything yourself....which you don't do and neither does anyone else, not even Davey Crockett.

We have all seen guns worked on by do-it-yourself types. Most of them are ugly junkers after the do it yourselfer gets though. If you want good work, go to a professional.

Don't believe I mentioned that I enjoyed the flicks of "gnmkr's" rifles. Sure are "pretty". But, I prefer the good old Stainless and Synthetic rifles instead of the constantly rusting blue and warping termite food rifles. Had to carry them for a lot of years, but now I don't have to - thank goodness.

On the other hand, the last rifle I traded for was an easier-to-rust blue with a two piece termite foodstock. It has been fun to mess with, but it will be relegated to strictly short range hunting. Sure would have been nice if it had been in S&S.
---

Hey Don, Now you've done it, got kutee in his normal mode of strength - vulgarity interlaced with his boasts of being the greatest woodsman that has ever spent a minute outdoors.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
...That is a nice picture of suburbia, maybe you should try living alone, many miles from the nearest road or human in northern B.C., the Yukon, the N.W.T. or Alaska for months at a time with one supply chopper trip during this time. Then, you might actually find out something about self-reliance ...

Kind of strange he didn't include something about "imagining" a beer can on the ground in your nice flick and a non-recovered Elk off in the distance. You know how good he brags about being at Beercan Seering(BSing).

Yes indeed, I visualize kutee as about 5' tall with the part you normally wipe stuck atop the shoulders which explains the brains and vulgarity. Then about 4' of mouth running from the shoulders to the toes spouting nothing of interest or worthwhile at all. As for me, I doubt if kutee has ever had his fet off pavement, but at least he is fun to laugh at.

I utilize the full-service pumps out of fear of hurting myself or damaging my car.

Hey, HC, I see your AIDS meds have been causing your visualizations to become delusions again...so sorry.