QUOTE]

Hmmm...but if you spend $5000 on a custom from a KNOWN BRAND NAME gunsmith, you should be able to do much better than $0.50 on the dollar.

Mark Penrod, D'Arcy Echols, et al... Anyone sold any of their rifles lately or see any on Guns America for comparison?[/QUOTE]


There are lots of name rifles on Gun Broker, Ebang, and Guns America. Most don't sell for anything near what it cost to build them. I have seen a lot of nice rifles go for less than .50 on the dollar.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976617371.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976626778.htm

Here's one for 66% http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976626778.htm
Half at todays money for a Danahttp://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976464945.htm Campbell rifle

Custom guns are not an investment, you buy what you like and you order what you like and you bitch when you loose money when you sell it. You do all this knowing that you aren't going to make money on it, unless you keep it for 50 years and the asshole that built it was Picasso or Rembrandt.

I have been looking for a used Breeding or Johannsen for years, but have never found one.

Gunmaker

Come to think of it, I have never seen one of those names for sale, or at least not in the recent past.

But I hope you are not saying that the amount of cost determines whether the rifle is "fine" or not. Different is different and same is same, and if someone could do the same work for a different price if would not change the quality of the rifle.

I think that at least a part (maybe a small part) of what you are saying comes from the fact that folks who have a bit more money to purchase these more expensive rifles have enough so that when they want to start their next project they don't need to sell the last one in order to raise the cash for the new one.

And of course, they can appreciate and afford fine work for what it is, regardless of what it is. I mean, who knew back in the 50s that a few cans of paint thrown randomly at a canvas (Jackson Pollock) would today be worth over a million dollars. But those with a few bucks back then bought the work for the work itself and didn't need the money so they kept it and it finally paid off for them.

I so very much wish I would have purchased a David Miller Rifle from him 20 years ago when I wrote to him and he wrote back that what I wanted made would be $7,500.00. I thought he was crazy. Today I realize that it was me that was crazy.

If I was left handed I would have bought Boddington's Miller 700 7mm Rem Mag a few years ago, I think the asking price was $7500. Cabelas sold it, and then whoever bought it from them had it on Guns America for $7500.

Compared to Millers newest guns, that old 7mm is very basic.

A David Miller Company Rifle is the pinnacle of rifle devlopment and quality.

If you could buy an English rifle as nice as a Miller rifle it would cost you 100,000 quid. Nobody makes a better rifle for any amount of money.

I have only seen two of them for sale used, anywwhere.

I hope there is a day, where I can afford to buy a new rifle from David and Curt.

Quality custom rifles are seldom sold until the owner either passes away, or else his needs change and he has to sell the rifle to raise some money.

Top rifles from guys like Miller, Echols, Breeding, and Simillion are seldom available for sale, the biggest reason being that they're built has hunting rifles for serious hunters, and they're proven products that don't get to the client until they've been thoroughly broken-in and proven for accuracy and function.

And by "broken-in and proven", I don't mean a single test cartridge to see if it goes 'bang', and maybe a half-box of one flavor of factory ammo fired at 100 yds; I mean a thorough, comprehensive barrel break-in, and accuracy and function test, conducted as if the builder was going to hunt with it himself.

Lot's of custom rifles come up for sale, and one of the biggest reasons is that many of them don't shoot or otherwise work quite right, or else they're limited-application collector's novelties that the owner wants to unload so he can uprgrade into something he'll get more hunting use out of.

AD

D99,

I have to disagree with you on the LH 7 mag Miller rifle. It was on a Rem 700 for God's sake! Kind of like a Chevy Vega turned into a hot rod. But still just a Chevy Vega. That was probably the fundamental problem with that rifle. It it had been built on a more desirable action, there is no doubt the price would have been double.

Very little of this thread has anything to do the title. SDH please explain how one of your displayed rifles is a cost effective hunting arm. Take any one of the pieces you displayed, get rid of of ALL the eye candy and it's still just as effective for a hunting arm but for a reduced price. If people want to pay a premium for color case work engraving etc etc, more power to them but it adds nothing as it applies to the original discussion. I personally can't stand a lot of engraving etc etc, it's like taking a natural born beauty and painting her with a pound of blue eye shadow.

Dempsey, I agree with you. "Eye-candy" is great if you're willing to pay for it, but I'm like you, I prefer plain rifles and I'm not willing to pay for such eye-candy.

For a traditional walnut-stocked rifle, a great piece of wood, superb checkering, and a quality blue job is all the decoration I could ever ask for.........

AD

I never said they were cost effective, just that some folks prefer the aesthetic and they should, by all means, have it.

Engraving goes back as far as fine gunmaking. I, personally don't think a fine gun is finished unless it has at least a modicum of engraving. All of my personal custom guns do.

What does engraving do? Decorative arts go back as far as mankind. How do I explain why some of us wish to embellish the items we most cherish? Should life be so austere as to banish imagination, artistic expression or fine gunmaking?

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Mearly demonstrating that there is another completely valid way to look at custom gunmaking: pretty can be functional, accurate and useful. Why not have both?

I can't imagine why anyone would even consider owning a gun with a plastic stock. Do I think that will change anyone elses opinion? Not a chance. So a few of you don't like engraving, should I tell my clients, "no more engraving"?

There is a 300 year tradition of fine gunmaking that I feel supremely lucky to be continuing. Apparently my clients are pleased as well, they keep me pretty busy.

Cost effective is relative. Some folks think it a bargain to have "eye candy" and be able to shoot it too!

If you simply want to kill something, go buy a Savage, it will provide all that is required. Why criticise the fellow who wants to hunt with a fine rifle?

And Dempsey, why do you live in Cascade? Do you fish with Mepps spinners? Could it be that it is a supremely beautiful place to live?
SDH

SDH, I'm not being critical of a person who chooses to embellish his rifle in ways that don't strike my interest. It also doesn't bother me in the slightest if a person spends as much on their rifle as I did my first house. It does,after awhile, get just a little old when the idea is put forth that a person really doesn't have a quality rifle unless he spends a certain amount of money to get all the eye candy.

I've owned a few Savages and correct you are, they provide much of what is required most of the time. I'm currently in a better postion and now choose better rifles but will never rip on the Savage owner because the truth of the matter is they work for what most people ask of their rifles.

Shame on you for suggesting I would use a Mepps spinner, you of all people should know a person isn't a real fisherman unless he's toting a six hundred dollar G Loomis and a fine assortment of dry flies. Just kidding, I use Panther Martins. I live a bit south of Cascade near Mtn Palace and it is indeed a lovely place to live.

This thread, for the most, has been very informative.
I am, for lack of a better term, a rifle nut. But, I'm also a southpaw. It dawned on me a couple of years ago that no one makes the rifles I want. That is the reason I'm pursuing a custom (more than likely semi-custom) rifle.
I'm looking for a LH "mountain" style rifle in .257 Roberts or 7x57.
How many customers actually consider the custom route for these reasons rather than an the "eye candy" reason?
Oh yeah...almost forgot...I've thought about getting rid of most of my rifles to have three rifles to fill the roles I think I'll ever need. (the .257 or 7x57, a 300 H&H, and a 9.3x62 or .375 H&H)
I'm really considering doing this. It would mean selling approximately 10 other rifles, but, at that point, I'd have what I consider to be the only three rifles I would ever need.
BTW. I will not sell the two big game rifles I have that have a sentimental value.
Am I nuts???

Dempsey,
One of my first rifles was a Savage 219 in .22 Hornet. If I was going to rip anything it would be 700's because they are dangerous besides cheap.

I in no way mean to imply that a custom rifle is for everyone, nor that it is the only way to have a great rifle. I think you're confusing me with AD in the judgement catagory. I own a half-dozen factory rifles and enjoy them all.

I just get tired of this notion that sophisticated custom rifles are all over-priced, under-performers and if they have a fancy walnut stock or engraving they are mearly "eye candy" or "safe queens".

So I'll keep plugging away that wood stocks work just fine, engraving is absolutely traditional and a one-off custom rifle is a worthy goal for those that are not so concerned about "cost effective" and can really appreciate hand-craftmanship as opposed to machine technology. And that it is perfectly alright to hunt with them.

If it is OK, I'll post a photo of a fine custom rifle every once in a while (two photo shoots next month). I've got lots of photos. BUT if you DON'T want to see them....

BTW, I just can't seem to get into fly fishing although I live 1/2 mile from the Yellowstone. Too much gear, to expensive and too elitist, don't you know!
SDH

I enjoy all the pics of rifles here, from something an amateur has done to stuff from top flight craftman like yourself. Some guns are way overdone IMO but I can still appreciate the work and skill involved. Some guns also just seem to have started life as a platform for a person to test just how clever and creative he can be. The talent is obvious but just not appealing to my tastes. I enjoy eye candy but to really look good, to me, it has to have a less is more approach. I like engraving on some guns but it shouldn't be the first thing I notice, it should be complimentary to the rest of the piece. Color Case work looks good on certain rifles, but again not over the top in colors or patterns. It's all just a matter of preference I suppose. At any rate I'm as guilty as the rest of hi jacking the intent of the thread. I do enjoy pics of your stuff so post away.

To get back to the title of the thread, I think a custom rifle is more cost effective than a factory rifle. A factory rifle simply is not satisfactory to me in most instances, so I keep sinking money into it and still do not have what I want. Just today I declined to purchase a new production Mauser .375 because the factory version just does not have good enough workmanship. Instead, I will pay double the price and get a proper custom rifle which will make me happy. If I had purchased the factory Mauser, I would have sunk a thousand or more into making little improvements and still I know I would not have been happy.

500 Grains,

I disagree with you on Boddingtons 700, but agree on your last statement.

A custom rifle, is a custom rifle and should be perfect!

A factory rifle will never be perfect unless it has been stripped down to parade rest and rebuilt from the ground up.

I think there is something sexy about custom M700s with great wood and sleek lines. Boddingtons 8mm is the same way.

To all,
A visit to the Custom Gun show in Reno, end of Jan, same time as the SCI Convention, is absolutly the BEST time and place to see America's and the best of the World's custom rifles. I haven't a doubt that you will come away thinking that the very best are build right here in the USA by small shop gunmakers. (Excepting, maybe Hartman & Weiss)

Ken, being a southpaw is an excellent reason to explore this option, maybe one of the best. I would look for a guy that has experience, Gene Simillion is left handed and seriously (sheep) hunts his walnut stocked custom bolt rifles. His are some of th finest and most reliable being built today. I've seen, handled and photographed many of them. The three caliber choices you mention are exactly what I might imagine if I didn't already have a .30-40 and a .38-55. They cost about the same as a jet ski, snowmobile, less than a fully decked Harley.

Demsey,
Thanks for understanding. Believe me, I hate pedistal swivel bases and most foo-foo, show off additions that have been popular to express a gunmaker's talents. At the same time, many of the cosmetic alterations I make to rifle actions are not even noticed by the majority, but in my opinion do worlds of good for the overall lines of the piece. Is this show off, or worthy modification? It certainly is expensive because I don't give my work away.

I am curios and most often do a full-scale drawing of a custom project before I start the work. Yes, it cost extra for the drawing, but wouldn't you like to have a clue what you are getting before you sink the mega-bucks into it? Wouldn't you like to know we are on the same page? My clients certainly do appreciate this approach. I wish I could reproduce one of these drawings here but that isn't possible.

Many of my rifles look like "less is more" because of the modifications I make. I got over the "show-off" phase when I was building Penn. longrifles, relief carved, swamped barrels, etc. etc.etc. When I made each and every part of the gun except for the barrel and some lock castings.

For the past decade my focus has been refine, define, simplify and make it to hunt with. I also do about 50% collectors project. I am very lucky to have developed this market and profoundly enjoy this kind of work. As is the Marlin lever gun which works and shoots great. There is a place for these projects even if it isn't here.

We haven't hijacked this thread because it is about comparing custom to off-the-shelf, I'm simply relating the custom end of the subject.

500,
If I could offer, I know most of the artisans in the trade and quite often give advise to those wishing to have a fine rifle created, including some of the partisipant here. I do it strictly confidentially and have no interest except to help put clients and makers together. I do NO bolt rifle work, period, but know most of the guys that do. There are some gems and some slugs.

As for plastic stocks, I just don't get it. For those that abuse rifles, don't hold them in the esteem I do and for absolutely extreme conditions, for over the top dedicated hunters, OK. But in at least 85% of hunting instances, there is nothing bad about a well build custom walnut stocked rifle. A look at Gene Simillion's (or Jack O'Connor's) sheep hunting photos 'ought to convince anyone.

I've done a considerable amount of shotgun work (two side-by-side, sidelocks currently in process which are WAY more involved than ANY bolt rifle), and I'm talking higher dollars than custom rifles, and am absolutely convinced of the importance of stock fitting. Rifles ARE NOT THE SAME. It is much easier to fit a rifle and, without bragging, I can fit a rifle stock by looking at the client. In the same breath I will tell you that NO PLASTIC STOCK IS CUSTOM MADE, PERIOD.
Take it for what you will, I've been around long enough to express an opinion.

Thanks to all who have followed this thread. I hope some of you have begun to understand the value of a truly custom rifle. Reading and studying my books Custom Rifles and Double Shotgun you will learn more about the subject than you will ever learn on this forum. That is simply because I wrote them to help folks understand about custom gunmaking. And to make some money which NO dedicated gunmaker can make enough of no matter how hard he works.
SDH

A custom Dakota #10, .257 Roberts, plane grade with extensie metalwork built for myself. Very accurate, functional, engraved and finely detailed. Can you see what is different from the factory rifle?

Gunmaker,

Do you have any more photos of work you have done, possibly a website.

About that Model 700 7mm Rem. Mag. by David Miller, I know the story of that rifle. It was built about 25 years ago, when left-hand Mauser-type actions were practially unavailable. The client wanted as light a rifle as Dave could build in left-hand, and so the Model 700 action was a natural choice on both counts. Even the magazine of that rifle has a reduced capacity to two and the stock is very slim through the magazine area. This rifle represented the technology of that era, and in line with the client's wishes. Today, if a client wanted a left-hand rifle, I believe Dave would furnish a Model 70 action as the first-choice option. And yes, if the client wanted a Model 700 action, Dave would use one of those as well, only it would be so reworked as to be barely recognizable as a Model 700.

Gunmaker, sounds like you're taking a mild jab at me, but that's OK. If you don't understand synthetic-stock rifles, that's your problem. I prefer them for hunting, but I certainly won't criticise those who prefer wood. My biggest criticism of wood has to do with how some gunmakers finish it, plus it's vulnerability to hard use (often finish-related), and no, I don't abuse my rifles. I've had two fine custom rifles with wood stocks that were so poorly finished (some sort of tung oil crap in both cases) that they simply wouldn't keep out the water for one day's worth of wet-weather hunting. When you're carrying an expensive rifle with fine metalwork, "eye-candy", and an exhibition English walnut stock that you paid good money for, but the finish was so poorly selected by the riflemaker that is washes out in one morning and the grain is raised and the stock looks as pale as balsa wood at the end of the day -- contrasting most dramatically with the "eye-candy" -- you're going to look at your investment in a whole new light in camp that night and declare "bull#hit" then and there, for everyone in camp to hear. And they'll gather about, look at the damage, and, in unison, they'll declare "BULL#HIT!!" as well. This has happen to me on two occasions, and that's enough. But I've never had this happen with a synthetic-stocked while hunting in twenty states and eight foreign countries, and that fact has spoken volumns to me. Tradtition and cosmetic gratification only cuts so much ice.........

At the very least, if a client wishes to commission a fine walnut-stocked rifle, he should ask serious questions about wood finishes. Does the riflemaker use an intercellular sealer? Is the finish some sort of tough synthetic, and hopefully built up a bit to protect the surface of the wood?, etc..... Not all of these guys finish with equal ability, regarless of how the stock looks in the gunroom back home. Milliron's epoxy, Biesen's Varathane, and Echols' and Simillion's synthetic intercellular-sealer/sythetic oil finshes are very, very tough, but not all custom finishes are as tough as these examples. Also, these days pillar-bedding offers many advantages for a serious hunting rifle, and some riflemakers are now pillar-bedding their fine walnut-stock rifles. David Miller and Curt Crum, as well as Echols and Simillion are, and the inletting remains so tight and so close that you can't even tell that the work as been done. Yet, stock compression has been eliminate, strength has been greatly increased, and stability has been enhanced all at the same time. It's not "traditional", but who cares? It makes the rifle BETTER!

Not all the great riflemakers are going to be at the Guild show. You can visit Miller, Crum, Echols, Simillion, and a host of others at the Safari Club International Convention, which runs at the same time in Reno.........

AD

This topic is always pretty silly, to me, because the word “custom†means different things to different people depending upon what they are going to use it for.

You can have a “custom†made dune buggy made for crashing and banging through the desert...and you can have a “custom†made Model T restored for auto shows. Both are “customâ€, both are cars, but they were built with completely different purposes in mind.

How long would that custom Model T look like it does if someone took it out to the desert to race it...and how many 1st place trophies would the dune buggy bring home from an auto show?

Good logic, Rick.......

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Good logic, Rick.......

AD

Unfortunately, “logic†is seldom a factor in most of these discussions/debates.

Good points Rick, but what defines logic can also be open for debate. I think what happens here is that when a person is pushing his side of the argument he appears to have the blinders on in regards to the other side and it usually just isn't the case. However, a person can get caught up in the moment and things get rolling. I have noticed though that a good deal of usefull information and knowledge comes out of such threads and are often some of the most informative discussions we have here.

dempsey,

Agreed...but it is far more productive if all sides in a debate at the very least have an understanding between them what it is they are debating.

When you start a discussion by defining something with a term that is as subjective as “custom†you will quickly find that you are comparing not only apples and oranges, but tossing in lemons, grapefruits, and peaches!

My point was that you can have a “custom†show piece rifle...as well as a “custom†working rifle...and “better†is then decided on the task at hand not on whether one is “more custom†than the other one.

I have $5,000.00 custom made suits, but I don’t wear them out in the field while shooting...and I have a custom made shooting vest that would be just a bit out of place at a formal dinner.

I agree on the custom show rifle and custom working rifle but can't imagine having a rifle just to look at. A firearm would have to have some serious historical value before I would make it a safe queen. But some people are different and that's ok

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
I agree on the custom show rifle and custom working rifle but can't imagine having a rifle just to look at. A firearm would have to have some serious historical value before I would make it a safe queen. But some people are different and that's ok

I have several rifles that I shoot fairly regularly at the range that I don’t take out in the field.

Personally, I can’t imagine someone taking a beautiful engraved/inlaid and checkered wood stocked rifle off to Africa to bang around in a Land Rover and scrape through the brush with.

I couldn't imagine treating beautiful woodstocked rifles like that either. That's why I personally stick to fiberglass
"functional" stocks. On the note of custom guns, I would personally never take a "out of the box" factory gun in the field. For sure I would not take one on an African safari that I had been carefully planning for a couple of years. I would equate that to going to a Nascar race with a 5.0 mustang. I just wouldn't show up for something that big without all my ducks in a row. I know many never have problems with factory guns, but the fact is that they do often have feeding problems or other malfunctions. The Winchester Model 70. My personal favorite action. That cast claw extractor is horrible and can easily malfuntion. This is a very easy a fix by a good gunsmith. This is just one example. There are others. Sarari's mean too much to me to not have my equipment in the best shape it can be. Even then, I always carry a backup gun. Know you gun and do the little things to your gun that make it more reliable.

SDH,

I sent you a private message on this forum. Thanks!

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. What are you saving that nice wood for anyway? Isn't the rifle a tool? If you're a hunter and you're not going to hunt with it, why not have a nice picture painted of a custom gun? Be a hell of a lot cheaper and take up less space than a gun safe!

Most of the guns I own have the deluxe stocks on them. that's what I like, that's what fits me and that how I'll hunt them. If I want plastic or rubber, I'll buy tupperware.

To me, the value of a gun is in the stories of the hunts, the loved relative who carried it for years in the field, walking next to you, shared memories with you, etc.

If my dad and I weren't estranged, there are two 06's I'd grab from him. One is heavier than hell, has a break that would blow your ears off, but he fell down a hill with it on year and in 25 years I've still never laughed that hard! I was literally heard echoing across the mountain in Potter County, PA. The other is the first bolt action he handed me. An old Springfield 06 that was sporterized. Nice job, but nothing fancy, dad was no big spender. $50 Bushnell on it. But still, it shot under 1.5" with factory loads and it was mine.

I'm sure both guns would mean just as much if they were engraved, etc., but that's not what gives them value.

Our esteemed friend Russell Taylor carried a custom rifle on his safari.

Damn Forrest, where do I send the bill for a new keyboard

Our esteemed friend Russell Taylor carried a custom rifle on his safari.

Several of you, I believe, have proven my point.

Custom is not synonymous with price, quality, or materials used. A custom rifle is nothing more, and nothing less, than a rifle built to some individuals specifications.

It can have a wooden stock, a fiberglass stock...checkered steel buttplate, or a big fat rubber one. The metal can be rust blued and engraved, or it can have a spray on finish in sexy tigerstripes!

I buy Snap On wrenches even though the cheap Chinese ones would work most of the time. But Snap On wrenches do work better (as do good custom guns), and they look better and feel better than the el cheapo ones. So I enjoy using them more.

"I certainly wouldn't treat a beautiful wood stocked rifle like that....



Come on you guys! A fine wood stocked rifle isn't for everyone, but it is OK to hunt with one. This one bounced around in the back of a Toyota, held firmly in my left hand with the steel buttplate resting on the spare tire, for a week in Namibia. We don't HAVE to hunt with a plastic stock, do we?
Josy gets it. Really, it's OK.
SDH

quote:

Originally posted by Josywales:
Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. ...

I seem to remember hearing that somewhere before. But, my experience indicates you simply can't "pretty them to death".

gnmkr, Why no bolt guns?

Terry

Since I started this thread, which has turned out to contain a ton of useful information, I'll provide a little more definition on what I'm looking for. I want a very good tool, utilitatrian, functional, bombproof. While I appreciate the esthetic it is not what I carry in the field. To illustrate, my favorite rifle is a 32 year old Remington Model 600 .308 that I've dragged through mud, brush, thorns and rocks. It's ugly but it works and I like it. If I'm going to Africa though, I want something better.

I've got a few synthetic-stocked custom rifles that I've shot a great deal of game with in some very diverse places. The blue is wearing a bit thin on some of them and the paint is missing in a few places, but I spend more time looking at and enjoying those rifles than I do the pretty ones. When my friends come over, those are the rifles they enjoy looking at the most as well, and when I visit friends, the battered, much-used hunting rifles they own are the ones I most enjoy looking at.

A good custom rifle is a great thing to own, but an "experienced" custom rifle that has stories to tell is even better........

AD

I agree with Allen, I think you would be well served with a good fiberglass stock and good chrome moly barrel. One note, if you talk to guys like D'acry or Mark Penrod about this, they like to use the win model 70 action in chrome moly. They will tell you the chrome moly actions are always smoother and will feed slightly better. Good luck!

When talking off the shelf rifles, what's the concensus on Kimbers and other higher end off the shelf rifles? I came very close to buying a Kimber in 7-08 recently, it was a very attractive wood stocked rifle but I know little of them. Instead I purchased a pre-64 in .270 that I plan to clean up a bit and use as is but that Kimber really looked nice. There are a lot of semi custom builders out there that don't seem to get a lot of chatter here. It's either the big four or five and then customs.



SDH, I put in for district 690 but didn't draw
the tag I wanted. It was the first time in many years I have applied for a goat, not sure why the interest hadn't been there for many years.

I would enjoy just looking at your stuff. While my tastes are simple I do love wood work in general including fooling around with gunstocks albeit not very good fooling around, but still fun.

dempsey, if you are asking about the older Kimber 89 BGR rifles, they are way overpriced for the value. Lots of cheaply made parts. I know that from experience as I own one. It does shoot very well. Cliff Labounty told me they used the best $7 barrels you can buy, maybe that was their secret.