What would be a fair price for converting a nice 1909 DWM action to 416 Rigby? This would include anealing, front ring clean-up, opening up the action and making it feed , charger hump remomal, new K98 style bolt handle , recarburizing, and 400 grit finish. I spoke with an AR member about doing this for me a few years ago, but I fell on hard times. Acording to his web site, the before mentioned smith's price for such work has doubled since then (I won't mention his name, but if I could afford it, I would still have him do the work. Still might have him do it, but I'll have to wait a while longer). This rifle will likely be a three year project, as I will have the rifle built in steps as I can afford it. I'm wanting to get the action done first, so I won't procrastinate anymore. Thanks in advance.

somebody answer the guy, I'm curious to know!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I don't know what it would cost, but I have owned quite a few 1909 Argentine actions in my day, and as the price of converting one for a .416 Rigby (including new bottom metal) approached the cost of an available magnum action such as a GMA, I would start leaning towards the GMA.

I want a fairly close reproduction of Harry Selby's Rigby built 416 Rigby, which was built on a standard large ring military style 98 action. Otherwise I would follow your advise, and go the GMA, Satterlee, or Prechtl magnum 98 action route.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

I want a fairly close reproduction of Harry Selby's Rigby built 416 Rigby, which was built on a standard large ring military style 98 action.

I am far from an expert, but I am not sure the above is correct.

I have read that Selby's Rigby was built on a military action but believe the author may have been mistaken.

I believe most of the British bolt rifles of that era were built on early commercial Mauser actions. At first glance these actions are indistinguishable from military 98 actions(same dimensions, thumb slot, charger hump, etc.)

I have a 458 lott that was done using a Wisner bottom metal. It is a vz24 and it functions flawlessly and very little metal was removed from the feed ramp behind the lug. The box is about .050 too short for the rigby. I would think altering the box would be pretty easy, but you might end up needing a new boltstop as you would want to open it to the rear.

Duane Wiebe is one of the few guys I would trust with this job, and he has expressed interest in taking a shot at putting a Rigby in a standard mauser. If you do a search he has discussed in here on this forum. He also has a pretty complete price list on his website.

I believe this was said to be Selby's 416:

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
What would be a fair price for converting a nice 1909 DWM action to 416 Rigby? This would include anealing, front ring clean-up, opening up the action and making it feed , charger hump remomal, new K98 style bolt handle , recarburizing, and 400 grit finish.

I believe what you want is an Obendorf style bolt handle.

It may mess with the integrity, but I love the look of the cutout in the back of the ring for loading a round straight down. cool.

The action (bottom metal not withstanding) on Selby's rifle is of standard large ring military
dimention, including the turned down bolt handle. Many pre-war Mauser-made sporters have actions that are indistinguishabe from their military counterparts other than the "Mauser" logo.
I would love to have Duane Wiebe do this rifle for me. At this time, I can't aford what he asks for his work. That is not to say that it isn't completeley worth it. My better half isn't pleased with the idea of spending the kind of money that Duane, and Gunmakers of his caliber call for. Ultimately, I may have to call on the likes of Duane for this project. However, for now I will look for someone willing to do the job at a price that I can afford. I hope to not spend more than $5-6K total for this rifle. It may not be possible to do it in this price range, as the barrel contour is unique and the front and rear sights will have to be fabricated. I am going to try to stay within my budget.
P.S. Duane's bottom metal will probably be purchased for this project.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
The action (bottom metal not withstanding) on Selby's rifle is of standard large ring military
dimention, including the turned down bolt handle. Many pre-war Mauser-made sporters have actions that are indistinguishabe from their military counterparts other than the "Mauser" logo.

I feel like a nit-picking SOB, but I don't believe the Oberndorf handle shown in the photo is a turned down military handle. Most military M98 handles have a very round bolt knob that makes an abrupt transition( neat 90 deg.) at the junction to the bolt stem. The handle in the photo has a soft radius at the junction of the bolt stem and knob, allowing them to "flow" together.

The commercial actions Mauser sold to Rigby were not marked with the Mauser logo.

Also, Rigby was the sole importer of Mauser commercial actions, so I would think that would be what they would have used. Selby's rifle was built by Rigby, right? I have never been too clear on that, most likely because of the accounts that is was based on a converted military action.

Jason. Rigby's were sole importers. That changed 1912 which was when H&H started producing the 375H&H. My H&H 375H&H delivered in 1913 was made on a magnum mauser action.

I would think the .416Rigby would be a very tight fit on a standard action.

Cheers, Chris

Matt,
I don't think $5-6,000 will get you there. Maybe close if you do all the stockwork or use fiberglass.
Butch

a cubic foot of dollars, probably

i would estimate anything from 2k to 5k for the action work alone

Jason
iirc rigby was the sole importer of magnum mauser actions, sole client, at one point. the 505 gibbs where made on these actions -- and jeffery used standard length actions, including commerical ones, for the 404 and 500

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
Jason. Rigby's were sole importers. That changed 1912 which was when H&H started producing the 375H&H. My H&H 375H&H delivered in 1913 was made on a magnum mauser action.

I would think the .416Rigby would be a very tight fit on a standard action.

Cheers, Chris

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Jason
iirc rigby was the sole importer of magnum mauser actions, sole client, at one point. the 505 gibbs where made on these actions -- and jeffery used standard length actions, including commerical ones, for the 404 and 500

We need to get Alf in her to straighten us out. If memory serves, Rigby imported Mauser commercial actions and sold them to their competitors.


Matt
Looking at Wiebe's price list $2,500 would get you a ready to fire(or stock)barreled action without sights. I added in another $500 over the normal charge to covert to a belted magnum. This would include the bottom metal, but not the cost of the barrel. Including the cost of the barrel you might come in under $3,000.

Sights would run another $600 to $1000, but you could have them done later.

The stock blank to match Selby's could be found for a couple of hundred dollars.

$200 for a trap-door grip cap.

Heat treating would only run you about $150.

Chic Worthing would be my pick for crafting the stock. Figure $3,500 including bluing.

Going this route you are going to spend a bit more than $5k(+-$8k), but the rifle will be "better" than the original. And the cost can be spread out over the duration of the build.

I believe Duane Weibe prefers to do everything in-house, at least that is what his web site says. Thanks for all the info and recommendations from all of you. I greatly appreciate it.

Well here are my thoughts on Getting what you can afford and getting what you pay for.

There are reasons Duane can charge the fees he requests... He has a reputation to deliver top notch work in a timely fashion.
And I highly doubt you would be disappointed in any way with his work.

As for what you can afford Well you get what you pay for and low cost can and almost always does equal low quality.

I right now have a list of firearms I would like to own and that list totals over $50K and that's just the realistic ones. There are the dream guns like a .460 Nitro Double rifle or a Best gun SXS shotgun. Those two I know will never happen in my life time unless I hit the lottery or some long lost uncle dies and leave me a fortune. It ain't gonna happen.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is don't settle for second best. If you have an idea of what you expect this rifle to be then save and get it done right the first time. You will not be sorry you spent that amount of money on quality but you will be pissed if some hack fouls up that action and builds you some bubba'ed piece of junk. Sometimes you just can't sacrifice quality and craftsmanship for the sake of cost.

I have come to the conclusion that a good double rifle in a caliber I desire is out of my budget but I can have one hell of a bolt gun though.
.300 H&H, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby all in a bolt gun all within reach and All for less then the cost of one double rifle

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Sometimes you just can sacrifice quality and craftsman ship for the sake of cost.

I can't really argue with that.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Sometimes you just can sacrifice quality and craftsman ship for the sake of cost.

I can't really argue with that.

Typo Opps
I'll fix it.

I'm not sure whether Selby carried a 416 from John Rigby Co or a 416 built on a military action; but the original 416s from Rigby were built on a new magnum action from Mauser specifically made for John Rigby Co. The first 416 from John Rigby on this action was SN# 3917 (Rigby) SN# 9809 (Mauser) on Aug 29, 1912.

From a great Mauser source book "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" by John Speed, Walter Schmid, Reiner Herrmann.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
the original 416s from Rigby were built on a new magnum action from Mauser specifically made for John Rigby Co.

I have read that Rigby did produce some 416s on non magnum actions when the supply of magnum actions dried up.

That's correct - at some point the supply of the magnum actions dried up; it's in the book some place, but couldn't find it quickly. I suspect that Selby probably didn't have a magnum action as I think he bought his gun in the 40s? Unless it was used.

I have talked with a few people who are familiar with Selby's Rigby ( John Barsness and Joe Coogan ) and am told that it is indeed an original Rigby and was built on a standard M-98 action.
According to something I read from Harry he purchased the rifle used after his double rifle had been run over by his lorrie and he needed something to finish out his season.

As to having a similar one built, the best man I know in this country who restores and builds the best Rigby style reproduction rifles is Lon Paul at Tanglewood guns www.lonpaulcustomguns.com
Like Duane, his prices are certainly fair for the amount of work and talent he puts into them but I would imagine such a rifle done up correctly - to Rigby standards - would cost at least twice the $5000 figure.

Mr. Selby and his daughter Gail were both members on Accurate Reloading a short while ago. You might try getting an answer about the rifle's specs out of them if they're anywhere near the Internet and still talking to us.

Rick

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
What would be a fair price for converting a nice 1909 DWM action to 416 Rigby? This would include anealing, front ring clean-up, opening up the action and making it feed , charger hump remomal, new K98 style bolt handle , recarburizing, and 400 grit finish. I spoke with an AR member about doing this for me a few years ago, but I fell on hard times. Acording to his web site, the before mentioned smith's price for such work has doubled since then (I won't mention his name, but if I could afford it, I would still have him do the work. Still might have him do it, but I'll have to wait a while longer). This rifle will likely be a three year project, as I will have the rifle built in steps as I can afford it. I'm wanting to get the action done first, so I won't procrastinate anymore. Thanks in advance.

Matt,

I understand wanting a classic patterned after Shelby's rifle, BUT a doing the exact same thing in 416 Ruger could save a lot of magazine work, feeding headaches and $$$$!

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

Matt,

I understand wanting a classic patterned after Shelby's rifle, BUT a doing the exact same thing in 416 Ruger could save a lot of magazine work, feeding headaches and $$$$!

quote:

Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. JBrown

Isn't that why he titled his book Use Enough Gin

5-6 thousand is a lot of money.

Just because you don't have the budget for top tier prices and talent doesn't mean you can't end up with an outstanding firearm.

Have you shopped or considered using a rifle already chambered for the caliber you want?

A comment: The standard 98 will easily accomodate the 416 Rigby IF the cartridge OAL length does not exceesd 3.6" CIP specs call for a max OAL lenfgth of 3.75

Federal loads theirs to about 3.586

To open a 98 to accomodate the 3.75 dimension would not be a good choice..

And...if Chic were to do the stock..I'd feel in pretty good company with metal work...backlog is a problem, however.

Now..I'll just throw this out as a ppoissibilty.

My partner in the SMP enterprise is a darn fine metalsmith on his own. He has converted a 98 to 500 Jeff that feed and functioned flawlessly, as well as several other challenging conversions.

For a time, I'm looking over his shoulder during all this, you might give him a call.
.

I am so very excited! A semi-retired gunmaker, who is former Guild member and AR member has agreed to do the action and barrel install. I spoke with Dan Peterson about making the barrel to the same specs as the Selby gun. Dan might make the barrel with an integral island in about the same spot as the barrel band sight that is on the selby gun. I would rather find someone who can fabricate the rear sight. It will be quite some time before my gunmaker can get to the action work, so there is a lot of time to work out the details. There are a couple of tallented fellas here in Colorado that I can approach to do the stock. It looks like I will be able to stay within my budget and have a very fine rifle. Thanks for all of the input, advice, criticism, and the lot. AR is awesome!

P.S.
By the way, I will not mention the name of my gunmaker. He can speak for himself if he wants to.

Matt, It sounds like youre project has taken on a life and you are on the right track. Duane or Steve should be able to set you up with correct bottom metal. Duane is correct that the Federal Rigby ammo is under 3.6" and i tried that route with a custom rifle but it precludes you ever using any other factory ammo if you ever get stuck somehwere in deepest-darkest.
Good luck with your project and keep us all in the loop.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Duane is correct that the Federal Rigby ammo is under 3.6" and i tried that route with a custom rifle but it precludes you ever using any other factory ammo if you ever get stuck somehwere in deepest-darkest.

I don't know the OAL of the other manufactures ammo, but I would think that some others would be as short as the Hornaday stuff.

Another thought I have had on this is to use a 3.6 mag box, but chamber the barrel to accept max OAL (3.750) factory ammo. I believe you would need to do this anyway or you would have a wildcat, and would have to mark the barrel as such.

My point is that you could still use the rifle in a pinch with ammo that did not fit the magazine. It would just become a single shot until you could get proper length ammo.

Duanne,
Funny I was going to suggest Steve too. I am looking forward to the work he did on my .404 Jeffery.
Steve

The other option besides a 416 Rigby is an identical, but slightly downsized version, in 416 Ruger. I know Steve and Duane can do that as Steve is working on one for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
A comment: The standard 98 will easily accomodate the 416 Rigby IF the cartridge OAL length does not exceesd 3.6" CIP specs call for a max OAL lenfgth of 3.75

Three questions:

1)How long is Norma, Hornady and Kynoch ammo.

2) How long of a cartridge could Selby's rifle take(We may never know)?

3)How long was typical pre- and early post-war 416 Rigby ammo?

Here's a link to part one of a recent two part article by Harry Selby in The American Rifleman. It contains a photo of Selby's Rigby.

http://www.americanrifleman.or...e.aspx?id=1659&cid=9

Stryker60

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Three questions:

1)How long is Norma, Hornady and Kynoch ammo.

2) How long of a cartridge could Selby's rifle take(We may never know)?

Both are great questions. Woodleigh 400gr FMJ, when seated to crimp in the grove, will be about 3.700" for what it's worth.

I would also like to know how the receiver was modified in Selby's rifle, not just how long a cartridge it would take.

My guess would be that the action was opened almost all the way back to the safety lug recess. That would require a modified bolt stop, but it has been done.

Food-for-thought, Wisner's 458 Lott bottom metal for the M98 was 3.700 inside the box. It required the bolt stop to be milled to allow for increased reward travel. From my rough measurements the receiver would needed to be opened about .125" to the front and .080" to the rear. I would think the units Duane produces could have the rear wall modified to open the box up about the same amount.

How will you get the dimensions to recreate the barrel?

BTW, I applaud your recreation or Selby's Rigby. It is the most historically important big-bore Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
We need to get Alf in her to straighten us out. If memory serves, Rigby imported Mauser commercial actions and sold them to their competitors.

Jason
1: alf woud lalter edit the post to "." as are the greater number of his posts. Rather than only deleting them, he keeps his post count up while remove the ugly mistakes
2: rigby dind't import "commerical" mausers, they import MAGNUM commerical mausers -- there is no simularity or interplay. the MAGNUM could take the gibbs or rigby cases .. neither really fit into anything else at the time, as the enfield wasn't done then .. MAGNUM mausers, OB's iirc, nor french or belgian ... there's a huge difference in the statement of "commerical" mausers and magnum mausers.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
there's a huge difference in the statement of "commerical" mausers and magnum mausers.

I'm well aware. When I say "commercial" I am referring to all commercial(non military) actions, including the standard, magnum and intermediate(7x57). I was under the impression that Rigby was the sole "Mauser agent" in GB and sold the actions to the other British gunbuilders.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
How will you get the dimensions to recreate the barrel?

In lane Simpson's Rifle Magazine article on this rifle, he gives the barrel length and muzzle diameter. I'll let Dan Petersen guestimate the rest from the pictures that I have accumulated. I might try getting in touch with Joe Coogan and see if he made any critical measurements of the rifle. He may have some good pictures as well. I read somewhere that he works for Benneli USA nowadays. As I stated earlier it will be some months before the action work gets started.

Sounds pretty cool. I look forward to following your build.

BTW, what was the length and muzzle diameter?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
there's a huge difference in the statement of "commerical" mausers and magnum mausers.

I'm well aware. When I say "commercial" I am referring to all commercial(non military) actions, including the standard, magnum and intermediate(7x57). I was under the impression that Rigby was the sole "Mauser agent" in GB and sold the actions to the other British gunbuilders.

they weren't - they had the sole contract to the magnum mauser action .. ALL OF THEM went to rigby ... however, anyone and their dog could buy commercial actions ... and did