The Accurate Reloading Forums
Are ceramic rifle barrels in the future?
16 August 2011, 06:22
Rae59Are ceramic rifle barrels in the future?
Will we ever see 100% ceramic rifle barrels?
(for heat and erosion control, less production cost and ease of manufacturing plus closer tolerances and finish)??????
"The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc....
-----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years-------------------
16 August 2011, 16:57
jeffeossomore than likely,
16 August 2011, 18:13
D HumbargerNot unless they can address the issue of being too brittle.
Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73.
Yankee Station
Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo.
16 August 2011, 18:23
kcstottquote:
Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Not unless they can address the issue of being too brittle.
+1
www.KLStottlemyer.comDeport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
16 August 2011, 22:12
jeffeossohe didn't ask when, or with what for ammo .. but yes, we'll more certainly see ceramic barrels .. in fact, for tech like "metal storm" steel barrels wear out far to fast to be practical.
16 August 2011, 23:57
HowardCeramic lining first I suppose.
I want to see ceramic car engines.
Howard
Moses Lake, Washington USA
hwhomes@outlook.com
17 August 2011, 00:04
Alberta Canuck100% ceramic rifle barrels? Well, I hope not.
There are already enough un-needed gimmicks out there used to increase the cost of rifles to customers and profit margins for large companies.
As long as my current rifles kill well, I won't be buying one even if they do show up. I don't fire enough shots to overheat a barrel when either preparing for a hunt, or killing game. And killing men again is not in my plan. There is enough evil in the world for me to be a "wanna-be" in that game.
17 August 2011, 00:47
Bobsterquote:
Originally posted by Howard:
Ceramic lining first I suppose.
I want to see ceramic car engines.
Already been done. Chevy made a ohc 4 cylinder engine in the early 1970's made from a blend of silicon held in an aluminum alloy matrix. The cylinder bores were acid etched leaving a pure silicon bore.
This leads to the possibility of doing the same thing with a rifle barrel. Why not mix barrel steel and silicon, do the etch, and have a pure silicon bore? The bore would be microporous and offer less resistance to bullet travel. This should reduce friction heat and increase velocity. Might foul bad though. Concept would need some work.
17 August 2011, 00:56
meteThat Chevy engine - I was never able to find if it was a poor concept or it was just a standard poor QC that ended it .
The definition of 'ceramic' has changed and it now includes many different materials .
17 August 2011, 02:17
kcstottI think we'll have a change in propellent before we see a ceramic barrel. Or for that matter the type of injury will change. Star trek Phazer?? No more magazine capacity issues. No more Nitro express rounds need to to down an elephant. No more scopes, brass, primers, powder, etc....
www.KLStottlemyer.comDeport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
17 August 2011, 03:44
jeffeossoi also don't see them displacing steel barrels for conventional rounds... but unconventional.. yes.. and as for man portal lasers, sonics, exotic propellants, and other things.. yeah, we'll see it.. at least with another 40 years of life expectancy, i expect i'll see it.
heck, guys, we went from cattle prods to tazer.. basicly since 1991, as a huge jump in tech, and no barrel - which it replaced had a barrel, right?...
broadly speaking, yes, we'll see rifle barrels of ceramic
17 August 2011, 04:19
Howardquote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
Ceramic lining first I suppose.
I want to see ceramic car engines.
Already been done. Chevy made a ohc 4 cylinder engine in the early 1970's made from a blend of silicon held in an aluminum alloy matrix. The cylinder bores were acid etched leaving a pure silicon bore.
I meant production models.
I recall reading about a joint Ford Isuzu venture in the early 80's. Ceramic turbo diesel. 2.0 liter and like 800 horsepower do the the vastly decreased friction.
Howard
Moses Lake, Washington USA
hwhomes@outlook.com
17 August 2011, 08:13
Bobsterquote:
Originally posted by Howard:
quote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
Ceramic lining first I suppose.
I want to see ceramic car engines.
Already been done. Chevy made a ohc 4 cylinder engine in the early 1970's made from a blend of silicon held in an aluminum alloy matrix. The cylinder bores were acid etched leaving a pure silicon bore.
I meant production models.
I recall reading about a joint Ford Isuzu venture in the early 80's. Ceramic turbo diesel. 2.0 liter and like 800 horsepower do the the vastly decreased friction.
It was a production model. It was in the ill-fated Chevy Vega. Read the attached reference for a complete history. The engine section chronicles development and production. The article states at least two autos have the same technology today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Vega17 August 2011, 10:46
BohicaI think I can remember when LS said the titanium barrels would replace the CM and SS many years ago. HoHUM!
MP
When the fear of death is no longer a concern----the Rules of War change!!
17 August 2011, 15:56
farbedoMy cousin had a Vega with an aluminum block. It ate itself in 30,000 miles. We put two sets of pistons and rings in it to get it to 100,000 by which time the car was retired to a junk yard. A nice, but poorly implemented idea.
I would expect to see ceramic used as lining in a barrel. Sleeving an aluminum barrel with ceramic could make a really light and durable barrel. One issue with ceramics are that they are thermal insulators, so heat dissipation will be problematic in thick sections. A thin sleeve would help with that issue.
It is a neat concept.
Jeremy
17 August 2011, 16:05
hawkinsThe Vega was designed to run out the 50,000
mile warrenty, it did just that.
17 August 2011, 20:18
TomPquote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
Ceramic lining first I suppose.
I want to see ceramic car engines.
Already been done. Chevy made a ohc 4 cylinder engine in the early 1970's made from a blend of silicon held in an aluminum alloy matrix. The cylinder bores were acid etched leaving a pure silicon bore.
The Chevy engines were in the Vegas, and ended up oil-burners much sooner than anticipated.
TomP
Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.
Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
17 August 2011, 20:30
Bobsterquote:
Originally posted by TomP:
quote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
Ceramic lining first I suppose.
I want to see ceramic car engines.
Already been done. Chevy made a ohc 4 cylinder engine in the early 1970's made from a blend of silicon held in an aluminum alloy matrix. The cylinder bores were acid etched leaving a pure silicon bore.
The Chevy engines were in the Vegas, and ended up oil-burners much sooner than anticipated.
True, but according to the article in my previous post, the oil burning was due to faulty valve guides and not the cylinder walls.
18 August 2011, 00:07
tiggertateThey make silicon/carbon fiber brake rotors for race cars; who'd a thought that ten years ago?
I don't put much past the inventors and labs given a potential profit to be made.
"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
18 August 2011, 01:40
boom stickSeems coatings are a better idea
Anyone ever try titanium nitride coating?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitrideThat is a ceramic coating. Best of both worlds I would think.
18 August 2011, 04:11
Rae59pretty interesting Boomy.
One of my thoughts with all ceramic barrels would be ease of manufacuring. The barrel could be casted or more likely infusion molded - I guess would be the correct term. Less cost, much faster to produce and less quality issues I would think.
"The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc....
-----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years-------------------
18 August 2011, 05:25
SR4759That POS Vega motor was a cost cutting measure used with a die cast block and no cylinder sleeves. You can't really chalk it up to valve guides since they are really low tech items that have been in use for decades before the Vega ever came along. In fact Chevrolets tend to use oil around the guides on almost every engine they build because of cheap seals.
Fast forward to the Caddilac Northstar. It is another under engineered POS die cast engine block. This time it has sleeves but the head bolts pull the threads out of the aluminum block and the head gaskets blow. You can google those problems and find lots of Caddy's for sale with blown head gaskets. To fix them each head bolt hole requires a Keen-sert or similar to be installed.
And last but not least Ford is using plasma wire arc thermal spraying to coat the cylinder walls of one or more of it's newer engines. I hope it is an improvement another half baked process.
18 August 2011, 10:07
Chuck1911There are far better alternatives in the making. Cheaper and more cost effective.
For erosion resistance there is tantalum lining
For lightweight there is aluminum with a stainless core and shank.....
Lots to ponder.
CW
Chuck Warner
Pistolsmith
/
18 August 2011, 15:57
Rae59What about friction, barrel fouling and machine work?
"The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc....
-----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years-------------------
19 August 2011, 05:22
SR4759Tantalum is a very high temperature metal and is resistant to corrosive chemical at high temperatures but it is very expensive.
As far as ceramics goes a piece of ceramic the length of a rifle barrel ground to the right OD with no bore might cost 4 or 5K.
Steel is tough enough to rifle.
19 August 2011, 06:40
TomPquote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
The Chevy engines were in the Vegas, and ended up oil-burners much sooner than anticipated.
True, but according to the article in my previous post, the oil burning was due to faulty valve guides and not the cylinder walls.
Perhaps I have been misinformed...
TomP
Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.
Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
19 August 2011, 09:03
Rae59SR., you assuming post work on ceramic, I'm not.
"The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc....
-----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years-------------------
20 August 2011, 05:05
SR4759Rae59
Good luck with that. Many ceramic parts that I had worked with cost more than a pretty good rifle. And that is a part configurations much more simple than a rifle barrel. The most difficult part of getting a ceramic rifle barrel will be living long enough to see it happen.
20 August 2011, 05:15
Chuck1911A tantalum lined barrel is a reality. The same technology will produce an aluminum or titanium barrel wIth a standard steel core, much like a sleeve, but joined together on a molecular level, being essentially one piece. It can be done cost effectively I think.
CW
Chuck Warner
Pistolsmith
/
20 August 2011, 09:17
SR4759The anti-erosion properties of tantalum are good but it is not a very hard metal. It machines a lot like copper but is tougher. I am not sure it is hard enough for a barrel surface and it is very expensive.
The only piece of it that I ever machined was 4 inches square and 1/4" thick. In 1970 it cost $400 just for that small piece.
20 August 2011, 09:37
Chuck1911its already been done and is in use by the military on 20 and 25mm guns. Its also in use in larger guntubes as well. By having a thin layer in the bore, cost is reduced and the subsequent longevity of the barrel more than justifies the cost. I will try and find some cross sectional pictures I have here.
Chuck Warner
Pistolsmith
/
20 August 2011, 09:46
Alberta Canuckquote:
Originally posted by Chuck1911:
its already been done and is in use by the military on 20 and 25mm guns. Its also in use in larger guntubes as well. By having a thin layer in the bore, cost is reduced and the subsequent longevity of the barrel more than justifies the cost. I will try and find some cross sectional pictures I have here.
But with current technology I don't forsee any small barrel makers doing it. What would their equipment and set-up charges be? What would they have to charge for a finished barrel?
The U.S. military has a lot deeper pockets than most shooters I know (all, in fact), and if even THEY are worried about doing it as cheaply as they can, then I can bet it isn't very affordable for Joe Average Hunter and feel prety safe about my bet.
My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.
20 August 2011, 09:54
Chuck1911it wont come from a barrelmaker
Chuck Warner
Pistolsmith
/
20 August 2011, 10:00
Chuck1911the real benefit would be in making lightweight barrels ie a barrel of the same profile as standard, but, say 20% lighter and reasonably cost effective.
Chuck Warner
Pistolsmith
/
21 August 2011, 02:38
Mike_DettorreWhat is the advantage of ceramic?
Does the benefit out weigh the cost?
That is the question that needs to be answered.
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
> Star trek Phazer?
Even as a kid, watching those in the 1960s, I kept noticing (along with Doctor McCoy) how many things the phasers didn't, er, faze, and thought that a plain old .357 Magnum could have bailed them out of many difficult situations.
22 August 2011, 03:36
Alan WWell, It has been done. DARPA project a few years ago making pistol barrels. Results show a LOT of promise. No heat transfer to the hardware. It is better than 98% used in moving the projo. The methods, as best I can gather is to mold around a core that is the chamber and rifling, then fire it in a kiln & carbon fiber wrapped.
The proceedures and trys at ones long enough for a rifle where not achieved. Not sure why, but probably not insurmountable. It has been 2 years since I've either heard of looked for any updates.
I look forward to the day I can have a barrel for my target sticks that will last longer than I will live. (as long I manage not to smack it on somethine)
alan
22 August 2011, 08:06
Chuck1911If rifling tantalum in small bores can be perfected, that would be the closest,realistic option to what you describe.
Chuck Warner
Pistolsmith
/
22 September 2011, 18:47
Chuck1911this will give you a little idea...
Chuck Warner
Pistolsmith
/
23 September 2011, 07:54
SR4759quote:
Originally posted by Chuck1911:
its already been done and is in use by the military on 20 and 25mm guns. Its also in use in larger guntubes as well. By having a thin layer in the bore, cost is reduced and the subsequent longevity of the barrel more than justifies the cost. I will try and find some cross sectional pictures I have here.
Unless you have a drawing and the specifications you may be comparing apples and bananas. I do know that ceramics and tantalum both cost more than anyone would care to play with.