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Today we were notified by one of our clients that he had just broken the stock on his Legend rifle completely in two. The break occurred behind the rear tang and through the grip. Unfortunately he was right in the middle of a Bighorn Sheep hunt in Colorado. The fall occurred as he and his guides were making what they hoped to be the final stalk on a ram. While on the approach his feet went out from under him and the butt area of the Edge stock to the brunt of the impact in the fall. He had to temporarily stop the hunt and retrieve his other Legend. As I type this he is headed back to Colorado to try and kill that ram. It is well known that we have McMillan make our Legend stocks. This will of course continue as I feel they make the finest synthetic stocks available on the market today. McMillan has an unconditional guarantee for any breakage on their products and are already making a replacement. Regardless of the cause or circumstances of the accident D'Arcy Echols & Company will replace the broken stock and do all the refurbish work to bring the rifle back to 100% at our expense. I have spent 30 years trying to build a Sporting Weight Hunting Rifle that will withstand the harshest environments around the globe. Some times even the best efforts and materials will hit the wall and break. We will post some pictures when they become available D'Arcy Echols | ||
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Read: good business practice | |||
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Thats why I like stocks that are a bit thicker in the wrist area.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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Anything man made will break. Good to see you standing by your product though.  | |||
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You're a stand up guy D'Arcy! _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I seen a freind of mine take a fall the barrel landed on the ground the butt on a 8 inch log and him at 250lbs right on the action is feet went right out from under him. Broke the stock clean off the the wrist. It was a cheap ram line don't know of many stocks that could take that 250 lbs from about 4 feet right on the weakest part. They also replaced it no charge. Its very nice to see some one stand behind their products. | |||
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I think its nice that you will replace the stock, but I for one (and maybe the only one) don't see it as necessary. That is kind of like asking Ford or Chevy, or for some here Mercedez or BMW to replace the car after crashing it. | |||
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It's called an unconditional guarantee, has to do with customer satisfaction. You've impressed so many of us with all your insights into business, so I'm surprised you didn't learn anything about it in one of the business/marketing classes that you have taken and told us all about. | |||
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D'Arcy said quote: "McMillan has an unconditional guarantee for any breakage on their products and are already making a replacement" he also went on to say that he, D'Arcy is seeing to it that the gun is made whole. It's about honor and ethics. Something an attorney wouldn't understand. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I have seen it all - now even best business practice is criticized. Good for you, D'Arcy, and good for McMillan, too. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Yeah, the hunter could hire 22WRF to prosecute the case, I don't think he would go pro bono, once he considered the product liability issues and the corporate "deep pockets". | |||
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I didn't say it was not honorable. In fact, I said it was nice!!!!! I didn't say it was not a good business practice. Its great business practice. To include what I do for a living or what I learned in school makes your arguments ad hominum. I just made a comparison that any common person would understand. I stick by it. | |||
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It's quite reasonable and logical for one to think that an attorney would think that somewhere, somehow, there's a way around an "unconditional guarantee." Must be in the fine print somewhere. | |||
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Craigster What difference does it make what I do for a living. I see it as a moral issue. More and more people want something for nothing. But are you really getting something for nothing. Its fine if somebody wants to offer an unconditional guarentee. However, as you very well know, there is no such thing as a free lunch. I can assure you that McMillan's bean counters sat down with their statistical modeling programs and determined what that undconditional guarentee will cost the company over various period of time. And that cost is then added in as a marginal cost to each item sold. So if I purchase a McMillan stock and never break it I still have to pay for someone elses breakage. That to me is forced insurance, another name for creeping socialism. Good business practice. Yes, in more ways than one! No relfection whatsoever on Mr. Echols. | |||
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Kevin, Not necessarily true. It is just as likely that McMillan built the best product they could and said you "you know what...this thing will probably never break"...lets offer an uncondional guarantee. The type of actuarial analysis you are talking about is well beyond what most companies do. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I once slipped on ice and fell backwards breaking my (very cheap) Bushnell scope on my M-70 FWT. Bushnell repaired it free. Marlin put a new barrel on my bulged barrel in .44 Mag lever gun. RCBS replaced broken die parts free Hornady will even remove stuck cases from their competitors dies,,,,,WOW My point is simply this.....the firearms industry is one of the few that seems to create and honor unconditional warranties....and there's plenty of competition out there. BTW, I don't see 22s post an contrary...only as a statement of fact.....I sure wouldn't expect Ford to replace my crashed auto after driving it home. Oh yea.....three cheers for the Echols CO for it's honoring of it's word. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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As earlier stated it is good business practice or as some would say, it's the "right thing to do..." regardless of the legalities, fine print, warranties, etc. I for one would hate to see the gun business operated like the automobile business. martin | |||
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Some understand "honour" and lawyers, wellllll..... | |||
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Dear Mr. Echols: I applaud your decision to replace the stock on the fractured rifle. It will no doubt lead to further sales, and reflects on your sterling reputation. But as to the attack on 22WRF, and we have had our disagreements, albeit in a gentlemanly manner, I have to agree that he has a logical point. I must come to his defense in offering a perfectly logical, and not just a legal or ethical argument that no replacement is necessary. This critique is not leveled at Mr. Echols, but at the other few, who have no legal training and/or experience, which when applied would have opened their respective minds to possible alternatives to the replacement of the stock. So, I also applaud 22WRF for seeing the alternative, and yes, it does come from him being a lawyer. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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How can you determine what ...training... of ANY type a given poster here may or may not have had? Perhaps, you are blessed with "psychic" powers denied we mere mortals??? ...legal...experience..., could it be that it is precisely this which has motivated so many to comment as they do concerning lawyers? | |||
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22wrf, perhaps you should see someone is getting something; Echols is getting something arent' they? | |||
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What D'arcy understands, and many others do not, is that repeat business is the cheapest there is to earn and the second least expensive form of business is a referral. Darcy uses quality materials to build his product and spares no expense to assemble it, and puts a lot of skill into getting it right the first time. He can charge for rifles because they're worth it and his customers understand that due to his reputation and glady pay it. The poster at the time mentioned that the customer ran back home to retrieve his second Echols Legend to finish his hunt. Don't you think this episode will leave a positive impression on the customer? He might need to order a third rifle now. He will also most likely refer anyone looking for a rifle to D'arcy. That's good business practice. Compared to that, the cost of refurbishing this rifle is pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things. Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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Had D'arcy not posted this only a hand full of people would have even known it had been replaced, on the other handhad he not replaced it...several thousand people would have found out! D'arcy name is one that is automatically reconized, as a great gun builder that has got him where he is today. I'd bet he would have replaced and fixed it even if McMillan didnt stand behind it! _____________________ Steve Traxson | |||
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This is just a comment about the Guarentee----I negotiate professionally in an environment that requires full and complete disclosure along with certification to those costs (PL 87-653). I can assure the people who do not believe that the cost of that Guarentee is not factored into the build cost are not realistic with a company the size of the one in question. | |||
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Actually, if it is their policy which I believe D'Arcy stated it is, then yes, it is necessary. "Regardless of the cause or circumstances of the accident D'Arcy Echols & Company will replace the broken stock and do all the refurbish work to bring the rifle back to 100% at our expense." D'Arcy's customer obviously didn't feel the added cost of "insurance" was a detractor, in fact, I'm sure it was one of many factors that lead to his descision to buy, not once, but twice.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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ZLR I should have been more clear in the choice of words. My intent was to convey that it is the "policy" of replacement that I was referring to, but as I have stated, it was directed more to McMillan than to Mr. Echols. As I tried to convey, I have no problem with the insurance. What I have a problem with is that it is forced. 1. Would McMillan sell me a stock at a reduced price if I agreed not to take their insurance? 2. Would a gunmaker replace the stock if McMillan didn't pay for it? Lets get away from Mr. Echols for a minute. How many of the Guild members would replace their customers wood and the labor to build a new stock if the customer fell down and broke their stock? I don't know. But if any did, I am sure that somewhere in their price structure they would have it built in, and more than likely would not allow anyone to pass on that cost when ordering a gun. | |||
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The man who broke his stock is obviously not from the South. Otherwise a few sticks, or bolts if had some and some wraps of the ubiquitous duct tape would have kept him hunting.  First time I ever hunted with a now very long time partner of mine, we were unloading our gear in the hotel room and a roll of duct tape fell out of both of our bags.......I knew he was my kind of hunter right then.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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There are other manufacturers, you could simply choose not to buy from one that guarantees their product. No one is holding a gun to your head. Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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tex21 said it about as clearly and easily understandable as it can be....it's just plain good business practice and the cost of that repair/replace is pennies compared to a bad comment or two and the loss of subequent business. keep in mind that this is a business(gun building at this level of quality) that doesn't see allot of warranty type work to begin with so there is allot room to make smiles when the opportunity arises. | |||
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ZLR Yes sir, nobody is holding a gun to my head. But as I tried to convey, these costs are built in to most products such that one doesn't have a choice. It would be suicide for a company to not guarentee their product. I cannot go into my local Walmart and say, "Hey, I want to buy that new Vizio LED 48 inch TV over there, and I want you to subtract the $200 you have in the price as a warranty cost, and I will accept all responsibility if it breaks". | |||
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In other words, what you are complaining about is that it is a quality product? You'd prefer a less expensive product that wasn't manufactured to last is what it sounds like. Like you said, consumers expect a quarantee, it would be the end of a manufacturer if they decided not to warantee their product. To me it seems they have no choice but to warantee their products in order to remain competetive. No matter how you slice it, quality costs, period! Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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ZLR No sir. What I would prefer is full disclosure, and choice, in all matters. Dewey, Westpac, Craigster, etc. Have you noticed that not once have I referred to Mr. McCabe's profession or training in this social discourse, even though he and I seem to disagree? Nor he mine! | |||
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 Some times the most innocent of posted threads becomes a most interesting study in human behavior of tangential focus.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Roger, There are several "universal laws".. One of them is that we ALWAYS do what is in our own best interest even if it appears otherwise... | |||
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Dear Dewey: If you read carefully exactly what I said, and think about it, then you will understand that you don't need psychic powers to decipher illogical thinking. A legal background will address that failing among other types of training and experience, none of which I excluded in my post. Being able to read carefully is the first step to understanding. Here, 22WRF because of his legal background has occasioned an alternative to the replacement of the stock based upon a solid argument. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear 22WRF: I agree with your argument vis a vis the stock replacement, but disagree with your assessment of backgound credentials not affecting the petitioner's success in their argument. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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If there is anyone with credibility here is is 22WRF as his advice in the WFHein fiacso thread was found later to be dead on the money. Had the folks listened to him instead of rushing to suit and hiring lawyers, remember they was even going to take his toothbrush, they would have been money ahead. Instead they have more expenses and absolutely nothing to show for it, not even a toothbrush! I will say Z1R that it is nice of you to post under your own name for a changer instead of that caustic rem721 handle you formerly posted under. You have learned something but would do well to read 22WRF's posts with a bit more credibility instead of rushing to criticize. By the way, my hat is off to the Echol's company for treating the customer well. | |||
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Dear Chris, Thanks for pointing this out....I really did need a good laugh today! Sincerely, jjs | |||
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ZLR is Rem721? So ZLR, it was you who wrote all of those very nasty pm's to me? I hope you will allow me to buy you a beer at the ACGG digs in Reno. | |||
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All I can say is that If I had been the one to fall & brake the stock I certainly would not have the nerve to ask that it be replaced free. If I had fallen on the barrel & bent it should I get a free barrel because my fat clumsy ass fell on it & bent it? I think not! Maybe he should get a refund on the boots he was wearing because they caused him to fall in the first place. Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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