Why is it, whenever the smiths who build the most expensive rifles are brought up, some folks simply have to cut down their products and say they aren't worth it et al? At best you come across as jelous, and at most, ignorant of those folks offerings. I think the real issue is folks that are insecure that they can't afford the nicest rilfes, and have to make themselves feel better by saying, well that stuff is just a ripoff.

I drive Toyotas, they are utterly reliable and do everything I ask of. They are not Mercedes, and I am astute enough to know the difference in quality between the two vehicles. Yes, both will start every time, and get me from point A to point B in the same time.

If you can't afford the nicest guns built, that's fine, most of us can't. Just don't disparage those that can afford such wares, and those who build them.

Well said.

I've wondered about this myself, and am suprised that so many people on a forum such as AR can't simply enjoy the beauty of fine guns.

It doesn't mean they have to buy one themselves, but at least they should be able to enjoy looking at them, or reading about them, without telling us that their "Remchester" that cost $500 can do the same.

Even if they don't mean to seem like it, they usually come across as being petty and jealous..

Paul and Erik you guys are spot on. I can't afford those rifles we all drool over and with the kind of rough hunting I do I wouldn't be able to hunt with those beauties either for fear of irrepairable damage to such a fine peice. But I really appreciate every one that gets posted for what it is, the result of someones gift, talent and devotion to the craft. I too have wondered why so many can't just say something nice.

Hey Erik do you ever run into any people in Norway with my last name? (Snellstrom)

i think it's got something to do with ego. For some the only way to bolster theirs is to knock someone else. go figure

Gee, Paul...I completely agree with you on guns.

Now, when it comes to Mercedes vs.Toyota, I am in the other camp. I've had a series of Mercedes...used to buy an SL every couple of years. Had a 190-SL, 230-SL, 250-SL, 280-SL, and a 450-SL, in that sequence. Finally quit buying them after I got my first Toyota. My SL's were NOT reliable starting vehicles in the -35 and colder northern Alberta winters, plus they seemed to be made to trap moisture where it would most easily turn to rust. Over-engineered,? Yes. Better overall quality? I don't think so.

Don't know if there are any lessons in that analogy for gun buyers, but if there is one, it is "look to functioning first when buying, not just complication and cosmetic touches". Of course the good gun-builders do make them function right before they worry about cosmetics too. That's probably the difference between the truly good ones and the "just faddish" ones.

This topic was discussed at length by a bunch of us that attended the Reno show, and the consensus was pretty unanimous... it seems as though far too many people on AR feel a need to trash things in order to somehow validate their own personal preferences and choices in rifles/scopes/smiths, etc.

I’ve often made the comment that if some of these guys ran Baskin-Robbins they would only sell one flavor of ice cream!

Paul H, I wish I could have said it as well as you did................DJ

I could never afford 99% of the guns that get shared on AR. But I truly look forward to seeing the incredible rifles that people post here. Lately I have been copying the pics to my computer so I can use various pics for reference when I do get to build that dream rifle. I especially enjoy the pitcures taking showing the progress of the gun being built.

I even enjoy the ones that get posted to be made fun of becasue they are gold plated or carved stocks to who knows what. They arent my taste, but they do often show a lot of skill, time, and love went into the project.

Paul well said and exactly right.

It’s not always dollars and cents that decides what a person likes or dislikes.

I can afford lots of things that I may not “want†to buy...but that doesn’t mean that those products are garbage just because they don’t happen to be my “personal†preference.

quote:

I drive Toyotas, they are utterly reliable and do everything I ask of. They are not Mercedes, and I am astute enough to know the difference in quality between the two vehicles. Yes, both will start every time, and get me from point A to point B in the same time.

QUOTE "Now, when it comes to Mercedes vs.Toyota, I am in the other camp. I've had a series of Mercedes...used to buy an SL every couple of years. Had a 190-SL, 230-SL, 250-SL, 280-SL, and a 450-SL, in that sequence. Finally quit buying them after I got my first Toyota. My SL's were NOT reliable starting vehicles in the -35 and colder northern Alberta winters, plus they seemed to be made to trap moisture where it would most easily turn to rust. Over-engineered,? Yes. Better overall quality? I don't think so." QUOTE

My intent is not to hijack this thread, but I just can't understand how we as gun owners & I would assume we all believe in the "American Way of Life" as I think most guns owners do, would ever think it's good for America in the long run to buy foreign cars & products when there is an American option.

I don't want to hear about the fact that it's built here in the state.The fact is the profit is still going back to Japan or whatever other country nor do I need to hear that they are creating jobs. If you didn't buy the dam things it would be American companies building new plants & creating jobs.

I challege anyone to tell me if they can pin point the quality difference between a Ford & Toyoto . Beleive me folks there isn't any !

The illusion that this is a world economy is just that an illusion. The only open market in the world is ours.
If you don't believe Japan & China doesn't protec their core industries & markets then you're ODing on the Kool Aid they've been handing out.

People it's time to wake up & realize that the Japanese & Chinese don't give a dam about the American way of life & I'm starting to wonder if Americans do either ??

SUPPORT THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE, ORDER YOUR CUSTOM RIFLE TODAY!

I think part of this what i would call sarcasm directed at some of the finely made custom type rifles comes from people that view rifles as tools-if you fall into that catagory fine and if your the type that can pick up a finely made and finished rifle and really appreciate it-thats fine to. I guess it's just human nature thats makes someone knock another persons gun just because it doesn't fit thier criteria. On the other hand i have noticed that many on here seem to atlook down at anyone shooting with a scope that doesn't come with at least a 600 tag. I'd guess that most of rifle LOONIES try to keep upgrading the best we can.

I may be wrong but fully custom rifles are an investment into the future. Most shooters/hunters these days dont consider rifles that way anymore. A salesman in a gunstore I frequent has noticed that over the last few years (particularly in optics), buyers buy to trends not long term investment anymore. Where a hunter used to purchase a Sako and Zeiss combination once in their lifetime, its now a Winchester M70/Leupold and swap it over in 2-3years.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by hit-em:
I just can't understand how we as gun owners & I would assume we all believe in the "American Way of Life" as I think most guns owners do, would ever think it's good for America in the long run to buy foreign cars & products when there is an American option.

At the time there was no equivalent American option. U.S. made cars were notorious rust-buckets in the North. Quarter panels were good for three years or less. They also all cornered like overloaded gravel trucks. (Including the Corvettes, a series of which I also bought. I even had a Gulstrand 'Vette built with a Traco racing engine, and though it cornered better than most Corvettes, it couldn't hold a candle to even a stock Porsche for overall roadability in the "twisties".) No factory American car of the era had a paint job which would have been good enough to escape rejection at a Japanese car plant. Panel fit was (and often still is) a nightmare of thrown together pieces.

So essentially, the American car industry reaped what it sowed. It seems the Big 3 and the UAW had this dream that whatever they decided to hype is all Americans (or Canadians) should buy. Life ain't like that. Something along the line of "How do you keep 'em in Hoboken now that they've seen Paree?"

Anyway, back to rifles. When people can afford art, they buy art, whether now or in DaVinci's time. Thus there will always be Goens, Echols, Millers and their special breed, even if most of us have velvet from Tiajuana on our walls.

A fellow brought his custom rifle by a few days ago to show it to me. It is beautiful. Old M70, special bolt knob, special bottom metal, special safari sights, gorgeous wood, exquisite checkering. The wood looks like it grew around the metal, the fit could not be better even if it were sunk in place with an EDM (not possible of course). He has about $6800 in it and it was 4 years in the making. Cal. 338-06 (or was it 8mm-06?). It shoots about 1" for three shots.
Is it worth it? You bet it is. To the owner but not to me. I can enjoy the $70k-$125k shotguns on display at the SHOT Show but they are not worth it to me. I'm a user, period. Not a collector.
The fair market value of ANYTHING is what a willing buyer and willing seller agree on, on a give day.
Opinions of one person....

OMJ

p.s. My friend is looking for a certain Mauser for his next "dream" gun. But he shoots hundreds of rounds per year from his "working" rifle, a 700, custom 22-250 barrel, Leupy scope. He is a government trapper and does predator control.

quote:

At the time there was no equivalent American option. U.S. made cars were notorious rust-buckets in the North. Quarter panels were good for three years or less. They also all cornered like overloaded gravel trucks. (Including the Corvettes, a series of which I also bought. I even had a Gulstrand 'Vette built with a Traco racing engine, and though it cornered better than most Corvettes, it couldn't hold a candle to even a stock Porsche for overall roadability in the "twisties".) No factory American car of the era had a paint job which would have been good enough to escape rejection at a Japanese car plant. Panel fit was (and often still is) a nightmare of thrown together pieces.

So essentially, the American car industry reaped what it sowed. It seems the Big 3 and the UAW had this dream that whatever they decided to hype is all Americans (or Canadians) should buy. Life ain't like that. Something along the line of "How do you keep 'em in Hoboken now that they've seen Paree?"

Maybe it's time you reavaluate your impressions of an American made products that are out there today not 30 years ago.

I can remember when every Toyota & Datsun aka Nisson had sheet metal that was rusting within the first couple of years on the road & the metal was so thin that it rusted right off the brackets, but hell we don't want to talk about that ..do we ??

Let's talk about how these greedy & stupid Americans expect us to buy their crappy products.
While we buy from foreign manufactures who are so much smarter then us stupid greedy Americans & really love us as long as we buy their products....yep lets pass around the kool aid !!

How did we get from “Petty Jealousy†of custom rifles to world trade??????

Envy: it's a question of maturity and self esteem. Grow up. Be happy with who you are and what you have.......remember, it could be worse.......don't rain on someone else's parade because you can't have one.

And...some of us are confident in our penis size.

The bottom line is you get what you pay for. An expensive gun is generally expensive for a reason.

As far as whether one uses or just admires guns that is a different story. Some people are happy (or frankly obsessed) with safe queens and the same holds true for some car enthusiasts with garage queens. Do you know that most Ferraris are driven 1000 miles or less each year.

I shoot my guns and drive my cars....no matter what the cost.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Envy:

And...some of us are confident in our penis size.

Yeah...And that’s one area we American’s have it all over the Japanese!!!

Paul H as usual has nailed it.

Sorry, Hit-em.

I go by my personal experiences with products, not nationalistic jingoism. I bought a new GMC "Jimmy" in the late 70's. Within three years the quarter-panels were rusted completely through. So I traded it in for a Toyota LB 4x4. Still have it. Still no rust discernable. Of course, my Toyota was made in Japan, not in a U.S. factory under a Japanese name.

Quality shows, and since it is rifles we are talking about, I'll note that the same is true in rifles. Country of origin is not important to me. Quality is. If you feel differently, that's your perogative. I feel the same way about people, BTW.

quote:

Originally posted by hit-em:

I challege anyone to tell me if they can pin point the quality difference between a Ford & Toyoto . Beleive me folks there isn't any !

Hit-em, I work on all brands of cars and have worked on most major brands. If you don't think there is a quality difference between Ford and Toyota, you either don't know what the word quality means or you need to check your eyeglass perscription. Toyota's are much better made than Fords, I've worked on hundreds of each brand and know what the heck I'm talking about, you obviously don't.

Sorry, OK back to guns.................DJ

As far as Toyota vs American cars, I'd have to compare the experience I've had between me and my folks. I've had 3 toyotas with a combined 250k miles between them, only one problem with any of the three cars, a clutch that broke and wouldn't disengage, so trip to the shop and fixed under warranty. Other than that, I change the fluids and fill up the tank and they keep running. The truck has 135k and has been flawless, should be good for another 100k.

Let me know how many Ford and Chevy trucks will go 200-300k miles on the original engine and drivetrain, as that is exactly what Toy trucks do. And tell me why the standard truck in the 3rd world is the Toyota, where the environment is much tougher than here.

I had a Jeep wagoneer that needed two new differentials and a new automatic tranny, and that with 70k miles. My folks had two other Wagoneers and they spent a fair amount of time in the shop. Seems like I here plenty of stories of various Fords and Chevies that see the shop for more than oil changes.

Oh, I did have a good Ford, an old model Capri, but it was German made.

My time is too valuable to drive something that will leave me on the side of the rode, and I visit some spots where a break down would be more than inconvenient. If American companies made vehicles equal to Toyota's I'd happily buy them. That said, I'm not about to buy reward companies that produce mediocre products with my purchases.

Paul H....you´r my man
As a blue collar worker I never had the funds to get myself a custom gun.....but heavens know I wanted one more than one time.
( the closest I came was to put a Shilen barrel on a M77 make it a 35 Whelen )

Not often seen in my part of the woods, still there are some good smiths around that turn out premium specimens to entusiast´s.
Never jealus, but the envy man...the envy.
One in my neighbourhood called Ola Gujord, had a 8 mm Rem. magnum made on a M98 with octagon barrel that made me drawl....

Snellstrom...I made a quick search on the Norwegian internet phone catalog, but no Snellstrøm registered i Norway.
But in Sweden it seems to be a common name.
Do a search on htpp://privatpersoner.eniro.se/
and write the name snellstroem.
Guess you got that blue and yellow Swedish blood in your veins then ??

Kinda off the subject but my brother bought a new buick in 91-his daughter is driving it now-425000 stills runs good motor and trans never worked on-i bought a new volvo in 74-had over 300000 when i traded it onlt thing it went thru a couple of alternaters. This spring my 99 volvo had the timing belt break with only 30000 on the belt totally destroying the motor-i'd say thats not a very well designed motor-no clearance for the valves etc.

Arild,

Must be my Norwegian blood

Heck, I can't even afford another factory rifle at the moment

quote:

Let me know how many Ford and Chevy trucks will go 200-300k miles on the original engine and drivetrain

Actually I have a 93 3/4 ton Suburban with 200+ K miles, original everything, its been belts, tune up, and brakes, no other work.

Your comment based on my experience with my Burb is pure urban legend and BS.

I have a friend you just got rid of his Mitsubishi cause of a catostopic tranny failure at 80K miles, $6000 later is was moving but not right. My sons girls family just did a Japanese tranny shuffle on a new Honda pilot, warranty covered this time ( at under 20K miles )

My nieghbor also has a old Ford pickup second engine in it, with over 650,000 miles on it.

Save your Japan car bias for somebody who cares and start writting reports for Consusmer Report, and Car and Driver, funny how Honda's crappy auto transmittions never get mentioned in those.

Another item is up in the north country your Japanese cars rust out in no time, thats why they only warranty the bodies and chassis for 4 years, not 10 years like the european cars.

I had a 98 Lexus it was the biggest POS I ever owned by the way, pissed of the dealership when I went over and asked them why my 1979 Ford 1 ton pickup truck was quieter and rode better than my "new" Lexus. They replaced the whole front end by the time it was fixed.

I own Toyata's also, the make good little cars, but the legendary reliability is bunk, I am grilling my Toyota dealer currently why my wifes Matrix is changing out a serpintin belt 20K miles before its scheduled maintenance published in the owners manual, currently I am not getting intelligent answers just BS.

A interesting little fact its a old plain jane BUICK is currently one of the most reliable cars on the road, not lexus, not infinity, not mercedes, or not bmw......its a BUICK

I still have my Chevy PU I bought following college graduation in November 1971. Has just under 250K low miles, never overhauled, just routine maintenance, most dependable vehicle I have owned. Lots of rust now though, crappy mileage, but will still pull a tandem axle trailer fully loaded at highway speed.
I drive used cars, own expensive rifles.

Sorry I'm going with the off topic trend, sometimes things just get under your skin (I do have thoughts on the custom gun thing and will say Ditto to Paul and write more in the other post later).

Hit-em, this year my wife and I went Japanese for the first time. Honda, you know, the ones with great resale value (unlike the mercury I offloaded).

I want to say this, people with your attitude are the reason that American auto-makers do make cars the way they do. even if you take reliability out of the equation (and all brands have lemons from time to time, currently at work we are waiting for the next in a long line of problems with an F550 that is always going in the shop. laying the groundwork to have the lawyers go after them on lemon law) and look at gas mileage you see a problem. American auto-makers are in bed with the gasoline companies and don't bother to make their cars economical, sure, there are some ugly little bastards out there that do ok on gas. But my 91' explorer (which had its own share of issues), which I love and is on its rebuilt engine that lasted to 205k miles which was good because it was well taken care of, gets 12-13 in town. killing me.

My wifes new Civic has 140hp and gets something like 30-32 in town. Freeway is just awesome!

You want to help America, don't buy American for a while, if enough people did it you know what would happen? The big boys here would come out with some great cars. Don't get me wrong, if I were buying one purely for pleasure it would come from Mopar, as in my opinion nobody makes them like that. But for a real every day driver for working class, I'll buy American when they make them as good as the Japanese.

By the way, my Honda was made here, which means Americans worked on it. Sure money went to Japan. Who made your TV, stereo, car radio? Do you buy things at WalMart? Where did your baseball cap come from?

I truly am sorry to the guys here for going off topic, you all kow I don't do it often so I trust you'll forgive this time.

More on the custom gun topic later as I find it tickling the way some get so anti-high-end-custom.

Red

This is the latest report JD Powers & Assoc. has published in regards to customer satisfaction & customer complaints.

In the study, Toyota Motor Corporation earns 10 of the top model segment awards, with the Lexus SC 430 honored as the highest-ranking model for the second consecutive year, at 54 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100). Other Toyota models earning segment awards include the Toyota Prius (Compact Car), Scion tC (Sporty Car) and Toyota RAV4 (Entry SUV).

General Motors earns five top model segment awards, including those for the Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Maxx (Entry Midsize Car), Buick Century (Premium Midsize Car) and Chevrolet Suburban (Full-Size SUV).

"The 2005 IQS results contain some genuinely good news for General Motors," said Chance Parker, executive director of product and research analysis at J.D. Power and Associates. "The improvements of the quality of several models and at their North American plants are both very positive signs."

Ford Motor Company captures two model awards, with the Ford Explorer Sport Trac (Midsize Pickup) and Ford F-150 LD (Full-Size Pickup) ranking highest in their respective segments.

Toyota leads in regards to customer satisfaction according to their report, but majority of that is attributed to the Lexus brand which is Toyota's luxury division.

The facts speak for themselfs. JD Powers & Assoc. is one the most respected companies in regards to being subjective in their reviews & awards of excellence.

But perhaps they're wrong maybe what they should be doing is talking to some grease monkey out in Oklahoma & base their opinions on his experience's working on cars.

Let's see... Out of 17 awards mentioned for quality in your post, Toyota wins 10, twice as many as GM, and 5 times as many as Ford. And that makes them equivalent?


BTW, how many awards did Lincoln (Ford's luxury badge) win? And, of course, the fact that Powers is an American company dependent mainly on the largesse (and credibility, if any) of the American auto industry makes it completely unbiased in how it sets up its "standards" and selects its interviewees. Do I have that straight?

Well, the ultimate voters and poll verifiers are the buying public. It's called "capitalism". People buy those items which they find to be the best all around products within their financial means. They vote with their wallets. So, we are to look forward to American auto quality wiping the Japanese cars off the market, right?

I sure hope I live long enough to see that happen....but I ain't gonna hold my breath.

There is no doubt American cars have improved since the REALLY dark days of the 1980's, but they have a long way to go yet. I bought a new GMC Z-71 in '98, and though upkeep has been relatively expensive, it has run dependably so far. Of course they would have never improved if the less expensive, better quality, Japanese cars had not come available and given them some real competition.

The one thing which WILL happen and you can count on it, is if the American manufacturers DO eventually make the best out there, people will buy it. You won't have to rant at your neighbors for their apparently unpatriotic behavior. And if the American makers don't produce the best quality for the buck, people won't buy them.

Same thing happens with rifles. People buy the best quality they can afford, and they always have and always will. That leaves me with a few really good ones and a bunch of run-of-the-mine ones.

This is hilarious...we start out on custom rifles and within a few posts we have moved to penises and Fords!

I say we move on to womens breasts, food and booze. Which country has the best of those three things???

Hit-em, Sorry buddy but you need to go back and really read the report you are quoting. Here is a link to it:

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005069

Those of us who can actually read will see that Lexus is at the top of the quality list and Toyota is 7th, Ford is 22nd and well below the average.
The report which you quote makes my point exactly.

Now I drive a Chevy because the model I bought fits my particular needs. And all cars are getting better and showing signs of improvement. But the simple fact remains that Toyota's are better made than Fords. You can ask me or JD Powers.....................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
I say we move on to womens breasts, food and booze. Which country has the best of those three things???

Well, Rick, until you threw in food, I was leaning toward Sweden, but now I am torn between France & Spain.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
I say we move on to womens breasts, food and booze. Which country has the best of those three things???

Well, Rick, until you threw in food, I was leaning toward Sweden, but now I am torn between France & Spain.

Hey, Alberta!

Swedish meat balls ain’t bad!

The only trouble with French women is....well, they’re FRENCH!!!

[The only trouble with French women is....well, they’re FRENCH!!! [/QUOTE]


Yeh, but not for breakfast in bed....the meatballs, that is. If you'd just said "women", I'd have to pick New Zealand, Russia, and western Canada, in that order.

quote:

gets 12-13 in town. killing me

My burb ( remember is a 3/4 ton 4x4 ) gets 10 miles around town and I never saw above 14 MPG.

Gas mileage is not its strong suit, ( it beats the hell out of my 1 ton Ford 4x4 ).

I like American trucks, Euro or Japanese cars. American car interiors turn me off.

Course we could bring safety into the car equation, then its Swede or German and everybody else follows behind.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rick 0311:
This is hilarious...we start out on custom rifles and within a few posts we have moved to penises and Fords!

I say we move on to womens breasts, food and booze. Which country has the best of those three things??




And a new study shows Asian Ladies get breast cancer less because their breast ARE different.