I am not a stranger to glass bedding a Savage, Win, or Remington and think I can do a passable job. But I will soon be glassing my Ruger with it's Lilja barrel into a McMillan "drop in" stock. This is my first 77 and I noticed it has a smaller recoil lug than other rifle brands. I was always taught to provide clearance on both sides, the bottom, and the front of the lug to prevent them from contacting the glass. I been told they have to glass these rifles with the front action screw and floor plate in place.
I am looking for some helpful hints on bedding this rifle (.338 WM) or possibly someone has a link to post explaining the procedure?
Thank you

Interesting. I hadn't heard the clearance issue, except the rear lug.. where you clear all vertical contacts...

when you bed the action (assuming 100% bedding) you would ONLY have the releae agent for "Clearance".. floor wax, etc... use some plumbers putty to fill in whichever holes you don't want glass in....

I saw pillar beds for rugers on brownell's this morning... in their catalog, that is.


beddign should be 100% contact with all bearing surfaces, EXCEPT behind the rerar lug in a vertical plane

jeffe

You mean no glass on the side of the recoil lug closest to the muzzle?
How do you prevent the glass from entering the action screw hole while you are trying to screw in the action screw?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I was always taught to provide clearance on both sides, the bottom, and the front of the lug to prevent them from contacting the glass.

Other than making removal easier, I'm always curious as to the reason folks think there should be no contact with the glass on the sides and the front of the lug.

To answer your question, glass the entire lug. If the action screw threads directly into the lug, like the Rugler, then you need direct contact with the glass on the bottom of the lug, the backside of the lug and the platform. The side and frontal contact with the glass isn't going to hurt anything.

So, how do you keep from getting glass in the screw hole while you are trying to hold everything in place and hold the floorplate in and start the screw?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
So, how do you keep from getting glass in the screw hole while you are trying to hold everything in place and hold the floorplate in and start the screw?

Remove the floor plate from it's screw plate. Flip the stock upside down and insert the front guard screw and screw plate into the stock and place a piece of masking tape across the screw head to hold it and the plate to the stock and in place.

Flip the stock upright. Pour the epoxy and set the action into the stock. Begin screwing the front guard screw as you lower the action into the stock. Epoxy will begin oozing out so be ready with the "Q" tips, paper towels and acetone for cleanup.

Install the rear screw before you place the final torque on the front screw. Until you become practiced at it, you might want to bed the action in two steps, The front first, and then the rear.

DON'T FORGET TO COAT EVERYTHING WITH WAX. USE A "Q" TIP TO APPLY THE WAX TO THE SCREW HOLES. WAX THE THREADS REAL GOOD.

Last time I checked, recoil forces go straight back, not forward or side to side, so the bedding in those areas of the lug doesn’t have any mechanical or structural function anyway. About all it does is make you be more careful when you reassemble the barreled action back into the stock so you don’t nick the back area where you do need full contact.

I’ve never found it to be a big hassle to place some electrical tape on the areas I don’t want or need tightly mated by the bedding.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
... use some plumbers putty to fill in whichever holes you don't want glass in....

jeffe

Rick,
gun bounce in the stock, and twist along the axis...

not even NEAR majority of energy, but they do

jeffe

Malm,
That is exactly the advice I was looking for. Thank you. Do you allow for clearance on any area of the recoil lug or do you bed it in "tight"?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Last time I checked, recoil forces go straight back, not forward or side to side, so the bedding in those areas of the lug doesn’t have any mechanical or structural function anyway. About all it does is make you be more careful when you reassemble the barreled action back into the stock so you don’t nick the back area where you do need full contact.

I'm not an engineer, but if we are to believe that a barrel whips violently under recoil, then that whip would generate recoil forces in all directions. That torque created as the bullet spins down and out of the bore actually causes the gun to twist and lift as well as come back. That is why I always bed the action solid. But to each his own. I frankly have never seen a problem having full contact other than the ease in which the action is removed.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Malm,
That is exactly the advice I was looking for. Thank you. Do you allow for clearance on any area of the recoil lug or do you bed it in "tight"?

No. If you hired me to do it, it would be full contact with the lug. You would have to be careful to properly re-orient the action back into it's bed after you take it out of the stock, but hey, challenges are what makes the world go round.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
... use some plumbers putty to fill in whichever holes you don't want glass in....

jeffe

Rick,
gun bounce in the stock, and twist along the axis...

not even NEAR majority of energy, but they do

jeffe

Everyone has their opinions I guess. I got mine from long discussions about bedding stocks with guys like Gale McMillan and some current and ex USMC armorers.

All my bedded rifles have a “gap†( I use 10 mil thick PVC tape) on the front, sides and bottom of the recoil lug and I have yet to see any indication (marks,rubs, dings, etc) that my receivers have ever twisted or bounced around in the bedding. Your milage may vary.

Rick,
Maybe I was taught correctly

I am not an expert but isn't the idea of beddding to keep the action from moving, rocking, or shifting in the stock?? why isn't full bedding contact the best option for this??

First, I am certaintly not a gunsmith and many here know more than I do.
I was taught to add clearance to the bottom, front, and sides to insure the lug did not bottom out in the glass which would prevent the action was being seated correctly.
If the bottom of the lug is making contact then it could be possible that portions of the actions are being stressed when the action screws are tightened.

I plug the front guard screw hole in the stock and the receiver with a putty. I don't use the screws at all and press the rifle to depth by hand and put a few wraps of surgical tape to secure it in place. If you run masking tape along the action to the woodline before you alter the stock inletting for the glass you will see when it is seated evenly and to depth. It is important when doing it this way not to let the action sit too far back in the stock as it might if you remove all the supporting face of the recoil lug mortise which would cause hole misalignnment. I usually tape or otherwise shim the rear tang to hold it at the proper location. You can also run a separate piece of tape on the wood and mark index points on both pieces of tape on both sides. Put whatever release agent you use right over the tape on both wood and metal.

I do relieve all but the rear of the recoil lug. With full contact of glass on the sides and bottom of the action and barrel cylinder it is not going to be whipping around anywhere.

The relief aids assembly.

Maybe this is one of those debates similar to the differences in quality between Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pick-up trucks.

It has generally been my experience that any well-done approach to bedding lugs will work well. Floating the bottom, sides, and front of the lug seems to work fine, especially on relatively light recoiling rifles. Bedding the lugs solid all the way around also has worked well for me. I even bedded some (all, in fact) of my heavy recoiling bolt-rifles the full length of the action (including the sides AND magazine), solid at the receiver recoil lug, solid all the way down the barrel to the end of the forearm, and completely solid around the barrel recoil lug. For example, I did a pair of 10.75x68 Mausers that way, and greatly improved their first shot and subsequent accuracy.

One thing to remember is to try to get the glass a consistent thickness between the metal and the stock. All bedding epoxies have some coefficient of shrinkage when setting up. So uneven thicknesses will shrink unevenly.

I just bedded (my first gun) my Ruger M77 mark II the angle of the front action screw makes it interesting, I just put a bit of modeling clay in the action hole along with some in stock hole. I tried to not glop the acuraglass gel directly ontop of the screw hole, but its kinda hard not to do with the Ruger. I put two layers of electrical tape on the front, bottom and sides of the recoil lug, again much harder than with say a Remington recoil lug. I set everything in the stock gently and started the back action screw then the front, ran them in until I felt them just snug and stopped. Let it sit for a few hours then gave the action screws and quarter turn out and back in the next morning she poped right out looks great. Just finished my Rem 700 338 Ultra mag and it turned out even better. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I am not an expert but isn't the idea of beddding to keep the action from moving, rocking, or shifting in the stock?? why isn't full bedding contact the best option for this??

Just my opinion and my personal experience here...but if you have a barreled receiver that is so loose in the stock that you are relying on that tiny bit of contact on the sides and front of the recoil lug to stop it from moving around then you have a pretty sloppy fit to start with...and/or you don’t have much torque on the action screws.

Bedding tightly on the front and sides of the lug ain’t gonna hurt anything...but it ain’t gonna do anything for you either.If it makes you feel beter to do it then by all means go for it.

Rick,
heh.. remember what i usually am bedding.. .458 or better... Ii don't want any possibility of ANY movement!!!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rick,
heh.. remember what i usually am bedding.. .458 or better... Ii don't want any possibility of ANY movement!!!

keffe

That’s a valid point jeffe (or is it keffe now? ) I’m a pussy and don’t shoot anything above 06, and even those are in nine pound rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rick,
heh.. remember what i usually am bedding.. .458 or better... Ii don't want any possibility of ANY movement!!!

keffe

Keffe, try this next time you bed one of them big ones. http://www.sakreteconcrete.com/

WOW!!!

as many typos as i make, ya'll are going to circle up on the once in 11000 posts I misspell my name..



jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
WOW!!!

as many typos as i make, ya'll are going to circle up on the once in 11000 posts I misspell my name..



jeffe

At least the J & the K are right next to each other!

Rick, exactly the same way I do it. There is no need for bedding to touch the sides and the front unless you like it to be a giant pain in the ass to take the action out of the stock. The recoil goes back in a straight line and that is where the bedding is needed. It is to distribute the load onto the wood.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
I'm not an engineer, but if we are to believe that a barrel whips violently under recoil, then that whip would generate recoil forces in all directions. That torque created as the bullet spins down and out of the bore actually causes the gun to twist and lift as well as come back. That is why I always bed the action solid. But to each his own. I frankly have never seen a problem having full contact other than the ease in which the action is removed.

I believe Malm is correct. Barreled actions recoil mainly to the rear, but in the heavier calibers they also impart significant torque in the direction opposite of the rifling twist.

Additionaly, the barrel acts like plastic spaghetti as the bullet passes through the bore, causing the barrel to asume " ~ " shapes both vertically and sideways. Hence one of the reasons free floating barrels often shoot better. But heavy recoiling rifles can also pound their way into inaccuracy if not closely and throughly supported.

Again, as Harry Pope used to say, "It is the Craftsman, not the tool." On light and medium cartridges (up through maybe the .375 H&H), a good craftsman is more important than any approch per se.

Still, with the less expensive grades of walnut available today some heavy rifles need all the help they can get.

At least that has been my experience, and I go more by what I see than what I read.

Hey, jeffe don’t worry about that little mishap...a bunch of us now feel better about your posts. Before we just thought you were stupid and couldn’t spell, now we know you’re just a careless typist like the rest of us are!

Rick,
it's worse.. not only careless but lysdexic... don't ever ask me to build you a righty rifle with a lefty check...!!!!

jeffe

I can’t speak with much authority on what would be consider “hard-kickers“ because I don’t own any. But physics is physics no matter the caliber.

Everyone, I assume, is familiar with good old Sir Issac and his 3rd law of motion.

Well, sit down sometime with a calculator and figure out the ratio of your rifle weight to your bullet weight and see how much more force/energy it takes to turn your rifle on its axis as opposed the the force required to turn the bullet on its axis (spun by the rifling.)

What you will find is that there is not enough “action“ (energy) created by the spinning bullet to provide an equal and opposite reaction great enough to overcome the mass of the rifle...let alone if you add in the mass of the person holding it...to twist the rifle on its linear axis.

And sorry guys...but lighter rifles firing higher velocity rounds are far more effected by torque twisting than are heavy rifles firing lower velocity rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rick,
it's worse.. not only careless but lysdexic... don't ever ask me to build you a righty rifle with a lefty check...!!!!

jeffe

I got stopped once by a dyslexic cop...he gave me an IUD!

Rick - Good theory.

But, one has to take into acount the stiffness of bullet jacket (ease of engraving), length of jacket to be engraved, hardness of bullet core, total area to be displaced by rifling, etc.

The true test is real simple. No math required. Fire some of the big boomers and some of the hi-speed pipsqueaks alternately at the range. Answer for yourelf which twists more in your grip on firing.

Which will "torque"more in your hands? I can assure you it is likely NOT a .220 Swift, even at top velocities possible.

When you start pushing bullets over 400 grains weight at over 2,400 fps, you start experiencing easily identifiable rotational forces. When you get up to that speed and higher with 500 grain bullets it is crystal clear.

Now, I'll admit that I may be the only guy in the world to experience that (though somehow I doubt it), but that HAS been my experience.

Alberta Canuck,

If you can hold a rifle firm enough to allow the receiver to twist in the stock (which was the topic were were discussing) than you are a far stronger and better man than I!

I believe my point was that the mass of the rifle and the mass of the person holding the rifle easily absorbs and dissipates any torque energy the bullet being rotated by the rifling imparts to the weapon, and therefore worrying that the receiver is somehow going to twist inside the stock if there is not a tight fit on the sides of the recoil lug is not a real practical concern.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
I can’t speak with much authority on what would be consider “hard-kickers“ because I don’t own any. But physics is physics no matter the caliber.

Everyone, I assume, is familiar with good old Sir Issac and his 3rd law of motion.

Well, sit down sometime with a calculator and figure out the ratio of your rifle weight to your bullet weight and see how much more force/energy it takes to turn your rifle on its axis as opposed the the force required to turn the bullet on its axis (spun by the rifling.)

What you will find is that there is not enough “action“ (energy) created by the spinning bullet to provide an equal and opposite reaction great enough to overcome the mass of the rifle...let alone if you add in the mass of the person holding it...to twist the rifle on its linear axis.

And sorry guys...but lighter rifles firing higher velocity rounds are far more effected by torque twisting than are heavy rifles firing lower velocity rounds.

Every now and then customers send me just their actions to rebarrel. Now, as in years past, if I don't have a stock that will readily accomodate a particular action, then I will have to do what I have normally had to do over the past 26 years, before I had an assortment of test stocks, and that would be to "HAND HOLD" the barreled action to test fire it. I learned this little trick from Bellm back in 1980, when he had P.O. Ackley's Rifle Business.

You ain't lived until you've held on to a 375 H&H barreled action with one hand, while touching it off with the other. It ain't pretty! I would recommend giving it a try, just once, with your 30-06, if you wish to experience Newtons 3rd Law of e-Motion, first hand (no pun)! Besure to hold on tight...

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Alberta Canuck,

If you can hold a rifle firm enough to allow the receiver to twist in the stock (which was the topic were were discussing) than you are a far stronger and better man than I!

I believe my point was that the mass of the rifle and the mass of the person holding the rifle easily absorbs and dissipates any torque energy the bullet being rotated by the rifling imparts to the weapon, and therefore worrying that the receiver is somehow going to twist inside the stock if there is not a tight fit on the sides of the recoil lug is not a real practical concern.

I must honorably disagree, Rick.

The twisting of barreled actions in stocks is not something that occurs with one shot. It is the repeated increments of rotational force that do the damage. ANY looseness to the side of the recoil lug in a heavy rifle gives the rotational force a potential "head start" before the lug bangs into the side of the lug recess. After it hits the side of the recess, the rifle may start to rotate and I probably can't hold it rigidly. (In fact, I know I can't. That's how I learned it was twisting.)

And of course the same is true with all other places in the action/stock combo where any vertical, tangenital, rearward, or other force moving the metal gets a running start at the wood.

In small calibers it can take long enough that it's akin to peeing through a rock. But in hefty ones, it can be much quicker.

malm,

I’m sure that test would be exciting, but it isn’t real representative of anything other than why they don’t make handguns in high power rifle calibers. We were discussing (I thought) if bedding the sides of a recoil lug were necessary to prevent the barreled receiver from rotating on its long axis inside the stock due to the torque generated by a spinning bullet in the bore.

Since most of the receivers shooting these larger caliber rounds are flat bottomed how in the world is the receiver going rotate independently of the stock to where the side of the recoil lug is going to come into play?

Even a round receiver is mechanically tied to a flat trigger guard by the action screws.

Are we now saying the this torque is so great that it is causing the action screws, to flex and/or bend allowing the barreled receiver to twist while the stock material on the sides of the recoil lug just sits there waiting to get smacked by the lug? And what human being do you know that is strong enough to hold that stock in place while all that is happening?

If you guys think bedding the sides of the lug is the way to go then you won’t get any arguments from me!

Rick,
the 600ok, 550 mag, 550 express and the various big 500s TWIST when you pull the trigger..

rob says that the 600, if you ever loaded it to pressure, torques out of your hands...


jeffe

jeffe, i like all you guys too much to continue arguing about this. In my opinion (and that’s all it is) a rifle that is properly inletted and bedded and has the action screws tightened properly, is not going to allow the receiver to move, let alone twist, independently of the stock...no matter what the caliber. The whole idea of a stock and of bedding that stock is to make the receiver and the stock a unit.

If the inletting is sloppy and/or the action screws are loose then I can maybe buy the argument...but if that’s the case you’re in need of allot more than just tight bedding on the sides of the recoil lug.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Even a round receiver is mechanically tied to a flat trigger guard by the action screws.

Are we now saying the this torque is so great that it is causing the action screws, to flex and/or bend allowing the barreled receiver to twist while the stock material on the sides of the recoil lug just sits there waiting to get smacked by the lug?

Yup, that's what I'm saying. You mean you've never removed a bent guard screw from a bedded action? Remember, gunsmiths who work in heavily populated areas don't always have the best and the brightest for customers. Occasionally some slip through who don't think to check their guard screws to make sure things are tight. When that happens, stocks split and guard screws get bent. If such an action is sufficiently reinforced with epoxy, then the stock rarely gets damaged, but the screws still get bent.

I don't disagree with you or Chic's line of thinking in terms of relief bedding, it does make it easier to remove the barreled action, it's just that the bulk of my customers are the type that DO NOT take good care of their weapons. And so in order to look after them in the best manner possible, I tend to make things less likely to self destruct... That is what I do.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Even a round receiver is mechanically tied to a flat trigger guard by the action screws.

Are we now saying the this torque is so great that it is causing the action screws, to flex and/or bend allowing the barreled receiver to twist while the stock material on the sides of the recoil lug just sits there waiting to get smacked by the lug?

Yup, that's what I'm saying. You mean you've never removed a bent guard screw from a bedded action? Remember, gunsmiths who work in heavily populated areas don't always have the best and the brightest for customers. Occasionally some slip through who don't think to check their guard screws to make sure things are tight. When that happens, stocks split and guard screws get bent. If such an action is sufficiently reinforced with epoxy, then the stock rarely gets damaged, but the screws still get bent.

I don't disagree with you or Chic's line of thinking in terms of relief bedding, it does make it easier to remove the barreled action, it's just that the bulk of my customers are the type that DO NOT take good care of their weapons. And so in order to look after them in the best manner possible, I tend to make things less likely to self destruct... That is what I do.

Plus, I also suspect that all the whipping and bending that takes place on firing also acts over time to compress wood and make the action a bit loose in there. That's one of the reasons "glass bedding" was developed, as I recall from "back in the day". Also a reason flat bottomed receivers were engineered in the first place.

Even then, the Mauser and Springfield actions aren't exactly what one would call rigid. I've seen LOTS of twisted actions. Some of the really later attempts to develop Mauser style match rifles, such as the Musgrave RSA, have no magazine port and a full length and full width flat bottom to help keep rotational forces from screwing up the bedding in wood stocks. With a big enough flat bottom, a person can get away with less bedding on the sides of the lug...perhaps none if the cartridge is a light one such as the .308 Win.

The original post had to do with bedding a Ruger. The Ruger has extensive flats along both sides of the action. The area of those flats far exceeds the flats on the side of the recoil lug. Now, you guys, are you talking about a proper full length action bedding job or a bubba job of doing the recoil lug only? If you are just doing the latter you probably need all the help you can get.