The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing IGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
Give it up guy! You are out of your element. A friend has 3 wire EDMs in his small shop. They are used to help make custom receivers. Do a search and enlighten us on where an EDM machine has the capacity to do a barrel and at what cost. A little wire work on one of my L46 Sako   This cutting tool that I use to rebate rims on brass is cut with a wire EDM.  The ID of the banded sight that I made for my octagon barrel 6.5X47Lapua was cut with EDM and the OD by mill.  The trigger guard for the same rifle. /butchlambert/DSC02237.jpg[/IMG][/url]  They are great machines, but have limitations. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hey Butch, how many hours are involved in programing and cutting out that trigger guard with an EDM?  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Doug, My friend and business partner created it in an iges file. I gave it to the machine shop that had the wire machine. The only thing that I personally did myself was machining the blank to proper width and drilling the holes for the wire. Lot of handwork shaping the final contours. All wire work that I have seen is very slow. | |||
|
| One of Us |
At the prices I have been quoted for Wire EDM, you can't afford to do a barrel profile. I've been quoted from $5 to $15 per square inch of cut, depending on the accuracy required and the complexity of the cut. The round portions of a barrel would be real hard to do with wire EDM as wire edm only does one dimensional cuts, not curved profile cuts. You'd have to do numerous lengthwise cuts to approximate a round contour. A lot like using the side of an end mill to do the tapered round cuts, with small rotational increments each cut. But, the wire edm is hundreds of times slower than the end mill. The rib top profile would be the only easy part for EDM, and that's also easy to cut on the mill. I have no doubt that you could wire EDM a barrel, but why use an inappropriate process when several appropriate ones are available? When I look at the amount of cuts needed to rough out the round profile, I'd guess you'd have 50 to 80 hours or more of machine time in it, and still have to manually work it over when you were done. I personally think that a horizontal mill with appropriately shaped cutters is the easiest way to profile barrels. A good jig to hold it, offset it for the taper, and rotate it accurately for the octagon and rib portions is essential. Duane's setups looks great, if I ever get back into doing this, I see some improvements in his setup that I can really use on my jig. dave | |||
|
| One of Us |
Gentlemen, did I leave you the impression that Grimes was some shadetree mechanic who had a shop behind his house in a single car garage? His shop parking lot holds over 120 cars, and is nearly a city block size wise. For you "technically gifted" folks, his mills run to a one-millionth of an inch and talk to you as they makes the final cuts and a digital readout of same. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I can assure you - No they don't
| |||
|
| One of Us |
The multiple set up goat roping that you go through to mill a barrel has a high probablity of a false move and a scrapped barrel. It is stimply a proto process - not a production process. With a production set up prices of ribbed intergral ramp integral lug barrels would be much lower. While a lot of people seem to vapor lock thinking about a wire EDM it can do many things to a barrel simply by CNC program commands. The wire puts no force on the barrel and can run unattended over night. A turn mill center can probably remove material faster though some support for the barrel will probably be required to prevent deflection and chatter. All of this is idle talk without production volumes. With out production volumes we get to oooh and ahhh as a craftsman sets up every cut. Everytime he makes a new barrels.
| |||
|
| One of Us |
You are so full of shit! | |||
|
One of Us |
Duane...LMAO, did you open that can of worms on purpose. Hell, I may take one also...  -._____________________ Steve Traxson | |||
|
| One of Us |
Steve, you have done a couple integral barrels, Would you say it would be better doing it with a wire EDM? What capacity machine would it take and who has one? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Having toured his shop, I can assure you they do. They give you a countdown seven digits long as the final cuts take place. I'll give you something else that might cause your neural transmitters to crossfire again. Savage cuts all six flutes on their barrels at the same time. NOW, you tell me how... | |||
|
| One of Us |
He is a troublemaker. Every time he starts a topic like this or welding on a bolt handle all the Masters have to tell us how really should be done.  | |||
|
One of Us |
All the technical machining talk is way beyond me. But I love those octagonal to round barrels like I have on my pre 1912 Simson. Lothar Walther offer such barrels at a reasonable price. how do they do the work? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
|
One of Us |
Duane...put me down for one also. "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
|
| One of Us |
You are correct and I believe Sunny Hill does them. ssdave, I was not referring to you in the post above, I think you knew that. | |||
|
One of Us |
Nakihunter - Love reading your posts. You stick to things you know about, and are often painstakingly accurate. You are one of only two or three people I can recall posting in regard of a Simson (of Suhl) who spell the name correctly. Almost everyone seems to spell it Simpson, i.e., incorrectly. Way to go, my friend. | |||
|
| One of Us |
SR4759, I read quite well & machine even better. I just got home from the Holiday and saw the responce & also see others have responded. I have run wire EDM's as well as Sinkers, have you? A Sinker is used in material removal in a blind pocket by machining a carbon electrode that is submersed in oil and pecks its way to the depth creating inverse pocket shape. I just tried to offer an opinion as to the best method for this type of operation based on a lifetime in the shop with these kinds of tools available as well as the skills to run them. Please enlighten us with some more of your vast experience in how you would employ the chem milling process in this application? Also note that Duane is using a Hog endmill (roughing cutter) that eliminates much of the side load and deflection leaving a small amount of mat'l to be removed by the finish cutter. I don't wish to turn this into a pissing contest I was just trying to offer an opinion based on real experience having made parts for the space station & similar products, but if your trying to start a gun fight while armed with a pocket knife I will enjoy watching the others respond because I will have given up on your ability to learn. m4220 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Duane, I'd be interested in the booklet as well as any other info you'd be willing to divulge. As for the 1/1,000,000 " don't think so! Done quite a bit of 20 millionths work in precision Die work but 1 millionth again I say..... Don't think so! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I guess you would have had to be there and watch the digits appear on the readout as the machine milled them and the audio read them off. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Rich, Just because you saw the digits displayed on a readout does not verify actual measurement, that would be like believeing everything you read in print in a newspaper article. New machinery accuacy is remarkable but you are talking beyond ground & polished tolerences. These types of tolerences are hard to even measure in a controlled stable enviroment as a degree in tempature would vary the measurements greatly. If you would like to see an example of this, stop the machine idle & have a loaded cement truck drive by the shop at reasonable speed & watch those digits change on the readout even though the machine is stopped idle. m4220 | |||
|
| One of Us |
m4220, +1 on what you are saying. I have a couple parts that spherical bearings fit. Bearings are pretty close tolerance. Within a couple tenths total or .0002. That means that if all of my machined holes are within .0002 also, the bearing could be either a slip fit or a light press fit. You can get around that by purchasing a great deal of expensive bearings, select a few, and throw away the rest. Rich, I'm sorry, his machines do not machine to the tolerance that you think. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Agree with Butch. .000006" per degree/per inch expansion in steel. It takes a double insulated lab to get anywhere near that. No humans in the room. Too much a temp change. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Wait. Was it in mm??? | |||
|
| one of us |
Count me in for a booklet. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alberta Canuk - thanks my friend. You are still in our prayers and it is good to see you keeping your smart brain as sharp as ever! Take care & God Bless. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
|
| One of Us |
And now, to make things worse for the naysayers: I contacted McGowan about a tapered octagon barrel with integral milled rib on Monday. The answering Email came back yesterday. They expect it to take 4-5 months, since it is a one-off and they are back ordered on everything; but, they will make me a barrel to my specs, for approximately $560 dollars, plus shipping. Rich | |||
|
| One of Us |
Rich, I won't even touch that. | |||
|
| One of Us |
560? A unturned blank has to cost around 200. $360 to finish it? Does not seem right but that's maybe why guys go broke in the gun business. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Rich, Just for clarification, octagon to round with integral rib? Octagon with a rib on top? Big! Big! difference in the amount of work to do a traditional octagon to round with integral rib such as were found on the prewar Mausers. Ney Sayers for just trying to enlighten the community as to what processes are best employed to copy the craftsmanship & style of yesteryear?? Duane, Can you expound on configuration and if you can do this work within Rich's stated cost?? m4220 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Woodhunter, that's my jig in your pictures. There's an arc in the vertical mount for the tailstock that allows you to set the taper. The supports are spring loaded and locked with a set screw. In operation, you align the barrel with the collet headstock and the center tailstock, and then one at a time move the supports out to touch the barrel and then lock them so they don't push on it and bow it. In use, the jig is put on the mill table and a mill used on the side or top to cut the octagon flats, rotating 180 degrees between cuts, then 90, then 180, then 45, then 180, etc. Duane's setup is superior to this, incorporating some of his stuff into it would make mine much better. I'd be open to selling this thing to someone local, it's on the floor of my shop and I step on it constantly. But, it weighs well over 120 pounds, and is about 40 inches long; makes shipping very problematic for me. I may use it again someday, hard to say where life takes you sometimes! dave | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am certain that McGowan understands what is involved. They also said the programming is the main cost, and that once the program is written and tested it will be available. Not as nice as this one would be, but CNC is very precise. My old gunsmith, the late Dick Hart here, made a jig to do octagon, whether tapered or straight. It was in the shape of a "U" with one upright adjustable for height. He would just take the taper measurements and adjust the leg up or down. He could then clamp it securely in the mill vise, and let the mill run back and forth. Of course, it took time, since he took very small cuts and rotated the barrel blank 135-degrees after each pass. You guys needed to get out and visit some of the old timers before they passed away. They could do stuff with files that would amaze you. I am negotiating with a rancher nearby over an Old Model 70. It was originally a 22 Hornet rifle, that a local gunsmith converted to 22-3000 Lovell around 1946 or 47. It feeds perfectly. Let me get some pictures. Rich | |||
|
| One of Us |
Win, win for everybody.  So toss us some more meat (another photo or two) to keep it going. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Welding photos are always good for that  | |||
|
| one of us |
 Craftsman | |||
|
one of us |
On the same base, but yet another track . . . So octagon to round with an integral rib. What are all of the issues with barrel heating with all of the differences in shape/cross section of this barrel when one is shooting the final product. Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
|
| One of Us |
Is that a Ruger canoe paddle you're using to stir the pot with? Thaine "Begging hands and bleeding hearts will always cry out for more..." Ayn Rand "Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here, we might as well dance" Jeanne C. Stein | |||
|
| One of Us |
The barrel would be a 2" round, tuliped to octagon, tapered over a finish length of 26". It would have a full length rib on what would be the top rib, just like a lot of the Pre-WWII Mauser Guild rifles. It can't be that complicated to just ask Dan at McGowan; or are you guys: a. enjoying looking ignorant of the simple facts. b. or plain old stupid. With the CNC machinery of the past several years, and a plethora of competent programmers, doing something like this is not beyond the capabilities of a good Machine Tool Technology two year associates degree. Stop drinking the koolaid... | |||
|
One of Us |
Did you place an order? Or are you just wasting a man's time so you can look cool on the internet? Did he say he;d give you the first one out of the mill? | |||
|
One of Us |
Looks like we have a couple more slabs of meat to chew on. And beans also for some good old fashioned gas. Just "Smoking" along!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Woodhunter+1 | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia