I was at the range with a friend yesterday. He shoots a .270 Winchester M70 Classic Featherweight. And I have never seen anything like this before. He will take two shots and the holes will be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 1 inch apart. But if he takes another shot it will be anywhere from 4 to 6 inches high. Another and it will be higher yet. More and they will be all over the place. Let the gun completely cool down and the same thing happens again.

How could a barrel heat up that fast (after two shots), and what, short of getting a new barrel, would be best to try and correct this situation.

For a start free floating the barrel may be an aid.

I've used a lot of Douglas XX grade barrels in this featherweight configuration as well as two .270s a .243, a .257 Roberts and a .30-06 all in Winchester featherweight design and had some fairly excellent results. One .270 actually shot the first three touching. The rest shot groups in the 1.30 range and I've been happy with all of them. The featherweight stock however needs to be not touching the barrel.

All of mine have also been glass bedded.

If my featherweight put three in a 1.50 circle, I'd likely not care where the fourth one went.

well, he is definitely getting the first 2 in the 1.5 inch circle, but anything after that is at least 4 inches away!!!! Somebody said something about putting a piece of card stock under the barrel to put upward pressure on it. does that work?

I Would start by free floating , beacuse you can do it yourself. And if that does,nt satisfy, glass bed. But you know, if the first 2 shots are reall good, I could not argue with some one who said leave it alone either ! I have 2 pre64 featherweights. My 308 waas awfull till i went to IMR 4064 now it is excelentI just came from the range with the other one. A 270. I have about 2000.00 into it including the scope and as far as I am concerned it still is not accurate enough. to unseat most of my other rifles to make it to my deer hunting trip this year. I am gona take some more fiberglass out of the barrel channel and mabye put a small glass bedding strip in front of the lug and if that does not do the job I'll pull the scope and either sell or trade it. I might rebarrel to the roberts,but enough is enough ! ...tj3006

Whew! I thought it was me. My Featherweight in 6.5x55 was the worst gun I've ever fired. 1 Maybe 2 shots ok, then break out the search party. There were holes everywhere. Settle down, barrel cools, a couple more, not too bad, then Bham! Sold it last year.

I have a Winchester M70 Featherweight in 7x57. I know the fellow I bought it from real well, and he said the gun was very accurate. Well, it wasn't. I wasready to see the guy and give him an M70 suppository, but I liked the rifle so much that I decided to have some work done on it first. I took it to my friendly and expensive gunsmith and he did a trigger job, glass bedded the action and two inched of the barrel in front of the receiver, and still crappy, all over the place groups. All screwed were tight and loctited in place, so that was not the problem. I figured it coyuldn't be the scope as it was a brand new out of the box Leuopold 4X I just bought expressly for that rifle. What the hell, I put on Leupold 3x9 Vari-X II I had laying around and groups that were 5 and 6" were now running from .375" to .80". I sent the scope back to Leupold and got it back a week later and it works just fine now. The worst groups that rifle gives now is 1.25" with Winchester bulk 150 gr. Power points.
If that .270 were my rifle, I think I would pull the action from the stock and see if there is a shiny mark indicating where the barrel and stock might be rubbing together. If there is such a mark, take a dowel and some sandpaper and clear that area out and see if that clears the problem. Be sure to seal the wood with something to prevent moisture getting in and warping the stock.
Paul B.

Both of my remington model sevens shot 1" or better 3 shot groups in spite of the very thin barrels.The three shots were fired one after the other and then the barrel was allowed to cool.

I think it's safe to say that "featherweight barrels" or light barrels can be very accurate but you have to do your homework.

If one likes 1/2" groups he might want to look elsewhere but if fully acceptable hunting accuracy is the goal then these lightweight guns and barrels are fully excellent.

Paul

Thanks for the advice. I will pass it along to my friend and see if he does anything with it.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I was at the range with a friend yesterday. He shoots a .270 Winchester M70 Classic Featherweight. And I have never seen anything like this before. He will take two shots and the holes will be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 1 inch apart. But if he takes another shot it will be anywhere from 4 to 6 inches high. Another and it will be higher yet. More and they will be all over the place. Let the gun completely cool down and the same thing happens again.

Hummm, if I didn't know better, I'd say it sounds like a M70... Oh thats right, it is a M70.

First thing you should do is tell your friend that according to ad and kutee that - "Accuracy just isn't all that important!" and let that sink in for awhile.

quote:

...what, short of getting a new barrel, would be best to try and correct this situation.

Changing barrels might or might not fix the problem, but it still leaves him with all the other M70 poor design problems. Have him sell it to either ad or kutee and then have him go buy an "accurate" rifle.

take a business card, fold it in half, and force it under the barrel (this should always be the first "test" as it doesn't change the gun and can be done at the range)...

shoot 3 rounds... doesn't matter WHERE they hit according to POA, just that they group.

Generally a feather weight will last 4 - 6 rounds till it's too hot to group.

jeffe

Hot Core:

While I am not a Mod 70 or a CRF fanatic, I can say that an accurate Mod 70 is so accurate that it is highly unlikely that you or I can tell the difference between it and another brand of HUNTING rifle. I have 2 Mod 70s with Shilen barrels, med wt, (6.5x55 and .300 WM) which will shot under 1/2 MOA and I'm fairly sure the controlling factor on how accurate they really are is the shooter and the loads, that is, me.

The only time that action choice might make a difference is when you are trying for benchrest type groups under .2 inch.

As far as the gun in question goes, I think all the reasonable suggestions have been made. The next step beyond them would be a good gunsmith to check out the action trueness and possibly a new barrel. BUT.....if it puts the first two within an inch then I wouldn't really worry too much about it if killing game animals is all he is concerned with.

However, I'm the first to admit that confidence in your equipment is a big factor in shooting well. If he doesn't have confidence in it now due to the PAPER results, then he should fix it or trade it.

22WRF ,
First up your friend should check that the front trigger guard screw (middle screw of the three) is not tight . It should be just snug or it can cause some bending of the action which ruins accuracy in Model 70's . Second would be to seek a competent gunsmith to glass bed the action and free float the barrel . IMHO this is not a job for the average Joe if you want it done properly .
Get the barrel crown checked as well .
Model 70 Featherweights can be made to shoot quite accurately . My 7mm WSM will put five into 0.8" at 100 with good handloads . To avoid potential heartache I have all my rifles bedded before I even fire them . It is rare for an inexpensive factory rifle to come with a good bedding job .

Hot core,
I have 11 bolt guns ,
5 are model 70s, 3 are moa or better consistantly , I am sure you know better than all several hundred thousand of us that shoot and like model 70s and all those viet cong and NVA that fell to carlos hathcocks more or less stock model 70 30,06 I think it was 61 out of his 93 confirms before he changed to the model 700 aginst his will, were just unlucky that the bullet happend to hit them at several hundred meeters, and of corse jack Oconner really used somthing else to kill all those animamals and then posed for pictures with his model 70s
just to fool us hunters. I like any decent rifle
. I have preference for CZs FNs and model 70s.
I like rugers too, I only have 1 remington. and its not my style but i will admit its a darn good shooter. To sugjest a model 70 is not a good rifle is silly . I Like chevys but that don't mean a Dodge won't get you there !
...tj3006

ruger m77 with a noodle barrel 1 shot decent any shots fired after that lucky to be in the same zipcode, model 70 featherweight only slightly better, 240 weatheby lucky to hit a sheet of notebook paper at 100 yds. sent to weatherby they said nothing wrong with it, tried two different scopes and 10 different loads finally sold the P.O.S. no more lightweight rifles for me!

I shoot a model 70 Win featherweight classic
I channeled ththe forearm and did nothing else other than shoot my favorite load and it will always shoot under an inch at 100 yards.

Before I did this though It would heat up and really change impact!!


Basicly I free floated the thing Now it shoots
as well as it looks whether I shoot a 3 shot string or a 10 shot string. Its my favorite rifle. Hands down
Its a .270 winchester by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
...While I am not a Mod 70 or a CRF fanatic, I can say that an accurate Mod 70 is so accurate that it is highly unlikely that you or I can tell the difference between it and another brand of HUNTING rifle. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
...I have 11 bolt guns, 5 are model 70s, 3 are moa or better consistantly...

Hey Gatogordo and Thomas Jones, Good for you all. Always glad to hear that anyone has managed to get an accurate rifle.

Do either of you hunt with glasses on? If not, let me encourage you to do so since the "gas handling" feature of the M70 leaves a bit to be desired. If you don't, just use it with your normally Off-Side shoulder and when that eye is blinded, you can trade the M70 off for a different rifle that handles escaping gas better and still have your good eye to use.

That is as close to a 1-eye icon as I can find.

I think in my 25 years of reloading, I have blown 2 primers. 1 with my model 70 featherweight 270 made in 1957. I can see fine,
well with my glasses on anyway !.
If there were people being blinded by winchester rifles, to a significant degree I am prety sure they would have been sued out of buisness by now. I think that little hole right in front of the bolt that looks just like the ones on my CZ 550 and my old 98 mauser aught to help ! But since you have brought it up I will ask my smith about gas escaping. Why do so many top quality gunsmiths like David Miller build on model 70s if they are unsafe ?. I would also submit that if you cram enough of the wrong powder into a case you might just get hurt no mater what rifle you are shooting.
...tj3006

I've had several Win 70 Featherweights, a 7mm-08, 308, and 6.5X55. The 7mm-08 exibited the same problems you saw. I pillar bedded the rifle, free-floated the barrel, adjusted the trigger, tried other scopes, etc... It would still shoot 2-3 shots close to point of aim in a 2 1/2" group, then would walk high and to the right up to 9" away. I then had the barreled action cryo'd, and that solved it. Release the stress in the barrel's steel, and it will stay on target. It now shoots respectable 1 1/2" groups or a bit better and keeps them there through as many rounds as you would care to shoot.

Have it cryo'd, and problem will be solved.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
... Why do so many top quality gunsmiths like David Miller build on model 70s if they are unsafe?...

Hey TJ, Fair enough question.

However, if I answered it, I would not be real objective about it. And it would look like just bashing the folks that buy them.

Trying to say this as nicly as possible, it seems to me the people that buy them either don't know of the inherent M70 design problems, or do know about them and do their best to "rationalize" them away as non-important problems. Similar to the way you "rationalized" the gas handling problem.

If you are really interested in the M70 problems, let me suggest this, open a sheet in Word to store Links to M70 Threads that appear to deal with the different problems. Take some time and search back through the posts and copy the Link to that Word page. Then at your leasure, read through them and see if anything catches your attention that you might just not be aware of.

There have been a couple of really good threads on M70 problems within the past year. Of course you still have to wade through the "Loyality" posts within those threads and the "Bashing" posts(like mine), but there are some excellent, well worded problems brought forward by people you will recognize as having no axes to grind.

Best of luck to you.

You're sure a noble prick, aren't ya.

Chuck

who are you calling a "prick" Chuck?


Matt

I would like to tell my friend about your experience. Where did you have that gun Cyroed, or whatever you call it. What is all involved. And how much did it cost?

The dick head that posted just previous to mine. Does someone disagree?

Chuck

Chuck, I think you've accurately described hot core.

As to the M70 FWT, I've had about a dozen of them. I free float all of them and bed (support) the chamber portion of the barrel forward the receiver. I've never had one that wouldn't geoup under 1.250" with a tailored handload and many easily surpass that. My current M70 30-06 Fwt will put 180 NP's into 3/4" all day long. Ditto 165 B-Tips.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
The dick head that posted just previous to mine. Does someone disagree?

Chuck

I don't know if he is or not as I have no dog in the fight or whatever, but I disagree that this is the place to call him one!!!

22, I think it's absolutely the appropriate place. He interjected his usual narcisistic, negative self into this thread. Chuck called him out...

I for one am sick of the diarrhea that comes from this guy. His constant jabs and attacks of members here are becoming tiresome. He has no personal experience to offer, and it’s the same crap over and over and over again. He’s a troll by definition and should be sent packing as far as I’m concerned.

Chuck

quote:

Do either of you hunt with glasses on? If not, let me encourage you to do so since the "gas handling" feature of the M70 leaves a bit to be desired. If you don't, just use it with your normally Off-Side shoulder and when that eye is blinded, you can trade the M70 off for a different rifle that handles escaping gas better and still have your good eye to use.

I have blown 2 primers in my featherwieght
working up loads with 150 grain bullets in my
.270 win. Guess what.

The gas went where it was designed to go.

Down thru the magazine and to the right thru the little hole where the lugs lock up.

Am I now blind and just dont know it?

I wont call any names but you need corrected on that matter...

Hey 22WRF, You have seen through both of them and trash talking really does seem to be where they both excell.

Be sure to check the other thread that TJ started about the pitiful Gas Handling design of the M70. The truth is becoming evident without any need for me to enter that thread at all.

Now I guess brad and chuck will go trash those folks as well. They never let reality or facts inhibit their posts.

quote:

Be sure to check the other thread that TJ started about the pitiful Gas Handling design of the M70. The truth is becoming evident without any need for me to enter that thread at all.

Now I guess brad and chuck will go trash those folks as well. They never let reality or facts inhibit their posts.

LOL, you should have gone and checked the thread before running your arrogant gob. I did, in fact, post on that thread about the M70's poor gas handling design. I also commented about the 2004 improvement incorporated into its design.

Unlike you I'm fully capable of objectivity regarding a favored brand. Your approach is to keep your head firmly wedged up your ass and to speak from that position.

quote:

Your approach is to keep your head firmly wedged up your ass and to speak from that position.

Now, why does that position conjure up a movie scene about some girly bar with strippers...

CL, here's a pic of HotCore that perfectly illustrates my point:

As to the featherweight barrel accuracy, I agree with most of the other posters here that say to freefloat and bed. It took care of the problems I had with my M70 Featherweight. Shoots well under an inch for 5 shots now.

Featherweight barrels, by themselves, are not any less accurate inherently, based on my experience. I have a stock Browning Micro-Medallion in .308 and a 20" #1contour MRC 6.5-284 that will both shoot .5" three shot groups regularly. I haven't tried five shot groups, didn't see the need.

For gas handling, the classic model 70 is as good as any. The pre-64 70 is a rifle that has no appeal to me for that, among other, reasons. I did something really stupid ONCE and loaded one of Saeed's 6.5x55 loads in my classic featherweight without working up and it was way too much for my rifle. It blew the case in half and not any of the gasses reached my face! They went where they were supposed to and even blew the floorplate open, but I am fine. Sent the rifle in to make sure it was OK and it was also fine. I would have not wanted to experience that with my 700.

Just my experience.

quote:

I would have not wanted to experience that with my 700.

I have and it too and I survived nicely.

As a matter of fact the two guns I'd want to be shooting in the case of a "meltdown" is a Remington 700 or a Savage.

I've also had extreme pressures develope in a PF M-70 (.220 Swift) and while I first had to remove the barrel to finally open the bolt the action survived and I got no gas in the face at all.

Yes, I should have said that I did not want to experience it again with any rifle. They are probably equally strong, I just trust that 70 more now.

I’m a left handed shooter living in a right handed world so have shot my share of right handed bolt action/lever action rifles from the wrong side. A practice that isn’t highly recommended if you’re worrying about escaping gas. This from any action type. I’ve owned and hunted with rifles made by Savage, Browning, Remington, Ruger, Marlin, and Winchester. While shooting these rifles over the years I’ve had exactly two cases let go. Ironically both were in Model 70’s.

The first I was shooting an acquaintances right handed rifle using his mistakenly overloaded handloads. I wasn’t wearing glasses and got a bit of blowback on my left cheek. The second, I just posted about on this forum, had no ill affects and nothing came back at me. The first incident I won’t let happen again, and the second was unavoidable. Both left me unscathed.

The crap that people worry about here is really incredible, and Hot Core has so far been only able to spout experiences gleaned from internet browsing. He has no experience with Escaping gas from Model 70’s or hunting anything but eastern jack rabbits (I understand they call them deer out there.) Yet he’ll blow smoke, cry, disparage others, quote and misquote ad nauseam, all for apparent attention he’s lacking elsewhere.

He’ll then likely respond with some kind of sob story about bragging and how he likes to avoid it at all costs (here’s the noble prick thing again, but I understand it must be difficult to brag about culling rabbits). So.........Hot Core, if you have something worth adding to the discussion, have at it. If you don’t maybe consider staying parked under your bridge.

Chuck

free floating the barrel is not always the answer, and with a feather weight barrel many times is counter productive...A fwt. barrel normally needs to be stabilized and 3 point bedding is the best way to do that.....

But the only way to properly fix such as situation as we have here is by a step method...since all barrels are not the same and don't respond to the same treatment..and just because you fixed one barrel or two by free floating it, does not a good barrel make....

Step 1, bed it tight in glass and try it at the range...

Step 2 3 point bed it with upward pressure on the forend...

Step 3 free float it from 2 inches in front of the front receiver ring to the forend....

Do it in this order as you cannot put wood back you can only take it out...Stop at whatever step it gets its accuracy....if it does not then you know you need a new barrel....

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
...LOL, you should have gone and checked the thread before running your arrogant gob. I did, in fact, post on that thread about the M70's poor gas handling design. I also commented about the 2004 improvement incorporated into its design.

Unlike you I'm fully capable of objectivity regarding a favored brand. Your approach is to keep your head firmly wedged up your ass and to speak from that position.

Once again bradly has shot himself directly in the mouth.

If you do go check TJ's other thread as I suggested, you will notice both Matt Williams and Mr. Ray have blow bradly's totally erronious loonacy completely apart.

Always nice to get a good laugh at bradleys and chucks expense. All you have to do is read their posts.

I also see bradly has gone to his main strength - vulgarity. Speaks volumes about his upbringing.

Hot Core, off the med's again I see...