I was in my local gunsmith today to ask about a rebarrel job, I was thinking about one of the WSM's and He told me he would not due it over fear of being sued by Rick. I guess he and Winchester had some big todo over it and settled out of court. Ruger thinks enough of it to stop chambering WSM's. So is this writer so bitter that he plans on going after every little smith shop that chambers a WSM just so he can have his legacy? I can understand going after the big guys for patent infringment, but ever little gunsmith shop that chambers a rifle in "his" round? Come on what gives????

Your smith is being far far too conservative.

Jamison might be able to force a royalty on commercial manufacturers of chambering reamers but your local smith has a case of dumb for his actions in this issue.

quote:

case of dumb for his actions

Ignorance is no excuse for violation of a law, or copyright / patent infringement. Just ask a lawyer....

Suntiet,

Can you bring some of us to date on this issue? When, where and why kind of stuff?

Thanks

LMAO...
Jamison beat USRAC in teh patent case. Chambering a rifle for a WSM is not a violation... it's not PRODUCTION.

reasonable use

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by suntiet:
I was in my local gunsmith today to ask about a rebarrel job, I was thinking about one of the WSM's and He told me he would not due it over fear of being sued by Rick. I guess he and Winchester had some big todo over it and settled out of court. Ruger thinks enough of it to stop chambering WSM's. So is this writer so bitter that he plans on going after every little smith shop that chambers a WSM just so he can have his legacy? I can understand going after the big guys for patent infringment, but ever little gunsmith shop that chambers a rifle in "his" round? Come on what gives????

Let's say your gunsmith has a WSM reamer. Let's say your gunsmith buys a barel blank in the appropriate caliber. Let's say your gunsmith sneaks around and surreptitiously chambers that barrel with the WSM reamer!

Who hell gunna tell Rick Jamison about your sneaky gunsmith & his nefarious ways?? NOT I!

I doubt Rick has the wherewithal to bring suit in every jurisdiction in which some guy cuts a WSM chamber - it just ain't practical, even if he was made aware of everyone who did this - (NOT LIKELY!)

I suspect your 'smith just isn't too interested in cutting a WSM chamber......

So in other words, the WSMs are propieretary cartridge and you must pay a license to the owner if you wants it .

Why would you get a WSM, when you can get a 300 win Mag or 308 Norma Mag, or 8mm Rem Mag,338 win Mag or others. for lowwer price stable accesss for brass and ammo and at lower prices?

Build a .300 Win. mag. and tell Rick Jamison to shove his .300 Wizzum up his rosy rusty dusty, SIDEWAYS!.
Paul B.

IF YOU WANT A ROUND THAT IS AS GOOD AS EITHER OF THOSE,TRY A 30-338. IT'S BETTER THAN A 300 WIN MAG AND SUE PROOF FROM RJ.

quote:

Why would you get a WSM, when you can get a 300 win Mag or 308 Norma Mag, or 8mm Rem Mag,338 win Mag or others. for lowwer price stable accesss for brass and ammo and at lower prices?

A question I ask everytime I hear about the WSM. I admit I built one right after they came out. Never got close to claimed velocities. So the barrel for someone lese toplay with. I see no big deal that the action is 2oz lighter or the stroke is .5" shorter.
Give me my 308 & 358 Norma's anyday.

plus the 30-338 is a classic benchrest cartridge and those guys knows what precise ammo is all about.

Its equal to the 308 Norma Mag, but others that has patented their cartridges like JDJ, doesnt they get a bit megaglomaniac(?) when others find up a cartridge that resembles that one.

Like the 458 2 inch, JDJ claims its his ......

I don't want a WSM, but even if I did I wouldn't consider putting any money into rifle, brass, dies, or anything else RJ might even possibly get one cent out of. Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion he was just plain wrong.

Jamison didn't win a law suit he settled with USRAC. I wish they'd had enough guff to get his bogus Patent invalidated.
I like the WSM's because they are great rounds. Efficient, powerful, handy and made in some great rifles. The WSM's are great in and of themselves, it matters not a whit if somebody else like an oldie better, it's to each his own. IMHO those who refuse to try them are missing something.
Of the dozen or so different WSM's i've tried all have met or exceeded planned velocity. The one that didn't I stopped trying at a point where I was getting excellent accuracy with a superb bullet and didn't need to go any faster.................DJ

Couple of points here:

1) People only sue those poeple that they can COLLECT from...your local smith probaly has no real money

2)The patent is for the design of the the cartridge not of firearms. Not sure how this works but I am thinking that if I design a new kind of screw I don't get to sue people who make screw drivers.

3) Jamison is motivated not to sue your small guy. He wants a bunch of 300 WSM out there to get the royalties on the amunion sales.

4) If you think Jamison's patent is stupid then I guess its okay for GM to make an exact copy of the Ford Explorer body style but use all internal GM parts. Afterall, it's just the shape of wehicle. If you think that the above statement is wrong, then please describe at what point on the continum that patenting of shape that derives functionality is not appropriate.

In additon ther are only three basic tools: 10 the incline plane, the wheel, and I thionk the third one is the lever or fulcrum can't rememeber. So given that very tool is derived from those three, I guess we can't patent anything.

Mike,
4 basic tool...

... 4: fire..



and you aren't allowed to touch any of them!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
please describe at what point on the continum that patenting of shape that derives functionality is not appropriate.

I haven't read RJ's patent, but changing the dimensions of an existing design (the centerfire cartridge) does not qualify for a patent unless the new dimensions impart a new function.

For example, I couldn't patent a 0.307" bullet unless I could prove that a 0.307" did something that couldn't be done by a 0.308" (and fitting a 0.307" barrel doesn't count).

It is not unusual for the patent office to issue invalid patents. The responsibility for doing a thorough patent validation lies with the applicant, not the patent office. Just because a patent is issued is no guarantee that the patent will hold up in court.

quote:

3) Jamison is motivated not to sue your small guy. He wants a bunch of 300 WSM out there to get the royalties on the amunion sales.

Hope he enjoys his retirement.

quote:

4) If you think Jamison's patent is stupid then I guess its okay for GM to make an exact copy of the Ford Explorer body style but use all internal GM parts. Afterall, it's just the shape of wehicle. If you think that the above statement is wrong, then please describe at what point on the continum that patenting of shape that derives functionality is not appropriate.

I still don't understand why Jamison didn't go after Lazzeroni if his design predated theirs. And if the Lazzeroni short magnums were first then on what grounds did Jamison sue USRAC? For that matter what is so special about his idea that his claims do not also apply to the Remington SAUMs?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
LMAO...
Jamison beat USRAC in teh patent case. Chambering a rifle for a WSM is not a violation... it's not PRODUCTION.

reasonable use

jeffe

That's the worst legal advice I have heard in 10 years.

Dan,


As I recall, you practice IP law...what's your learned view?


Popenman,

I don't about the vaildity of your comment regarding function, but perhaps Jamison's and the patent's office view was I get the same capability in a shorter case, hence a shorter rifle, and less recoil.

Then the guy who invented the push button release for craftsman socket wrenches didn't invent new functionality? cuase its still the same function of removing a socket? Nobody can patent a microprocessor cause theyt all perform the same function as 8080 from 1980?

It appears that Mr. Jamison has covered both the firearms and the ammo, and making, using, selling or offering to sell either of them in the U.S. would be an act of patent infringement.


U.S. Patent No. 5,825,361 entitled “Short-action chamber and bolt assembly for high power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A firearm chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber for matingly receiving a tubular cartridge case, and an elongate bolt, having a bolt face, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position for pushing said cartridge case into said chamber and providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and having a first end, adjacent to said locked bolt face, for insertably receiving said cartridge case and a second end defining a case mouth recess for said cartridge case, said chamber having a first portion of a substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber defining an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having an inner chamber diameter at a location 1.25 inch from said locked bolt face of at least about 0.53 inch, said overall length having a ratio to said inner chamber diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said bolt having an extractor adjacent to said bolt face and a channel oriented transversely to said sliding direction of said bolt through which a rim portion of said cartridge, having an outside diameter substantially no less than said inner chamber diameter at said location, is movable transversely to said sliding direction into gripping engagement by said extractor before said cartridge is inserted into said chamber.

U.S. Patent No. 5,970,879 entitled “High-power firearm cartridge for short-action chamber and bolt assemblyâ€.

Claim 1: A firearm cartridge having a projectile and an elongate tubular case capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 50,000 psi, said case having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having an outer case diameter at a location 1.25 inches from said first end, said overall length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said outer case diameter at said location being at least about 0.53 inch, said rim having an outer rim diameter substantially no less than said outer case diameter at said location.

U.S. Patent No. 6,354,221 entitled: “High-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A firearm cartridge having a projectile within a range from 0.224 to 0.458 caliber and an elongate tubular case capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least 50,000 psi, said cartridge having sufficient propellant to fire in a short-action firearm at an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and being manually extractable after firing, said case having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having an outer case diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location 1.25 inches from said first end, said overall length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said first end and said shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 3.33, said firearm cartridge being free of any protrusion extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said case, said rim having an outer rim diameter substantially no less than said outer case diameter at said location so as to insure reliable bolt operation of the firearm.


United States Patent No. 6,550,174 entitled “Short-action firearm for high-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A short-action firearm having an elongate chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber and a bolt, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position, said bolt providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber having a first end adjacent to said locked bolt face and a second end defined by a case mouth recess sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile of a specific caliber within a range from 0.224 to 0.458 caliber, said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and being sized to matingly engage said cartridge so as to enable said cartridge to fire in said chamber with sufficient propellant to produce an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and to operably withstand said pressure, said bolt being capable of inserting said cartridge into said chamber and operably extracting said cartridge manually therefrom after firing of said cartridge at said pressure, said chamber having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber having an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having an inner chamber diameter at a location 1.25 inch from said locked bolt face of at least 0.53 inch, said overall length having a ratio to said inner chamber diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said locked bolt face and said frusto-conical shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said inner chamber diameter at said location of no more than about 3.33, said chamber being sized for operably receiving a cartridge free of any protrusion on said cartridge extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said chamber, said bolt having an extractor sized for operably gripping a rim portion of said cartridge having an outer rim diameter greater than 0.5 inch.

U.S. Patent No. 6,595,138 entitled “High-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A cartridge for firing in a mating short-action firearm chamber, said cartridge having a projectile within a range from 0.224 to 0.458 caliber and an elongate tubular case, having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and groove, capable of operably withstanding, and having sufficient propellant to fire at, an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi when in said chamber, and being operably extractable manually after firing at said pressure, said case having a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having an outer case diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location 1.25 inches from said first end, said overall length having a I ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said first end and said shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 3.33, said cartridge being free of any protrusion extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said case, said case being capable of withstanding said internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi when in said chamber without permanent deformation of said groove longitudinally of said case.

United States Patent No. 6,675,717 entitled “Ultra-short high-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A cartridge for firing in a mating short-action firearm chamber, said cartridge having a projectile and an elongate tubular case, having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and groove, capable of operably withstanding, and having sufficient propellant to fire at, an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi when in said chamber, and being operably extractable manually after firing at said pressure, said case having a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having a first portion diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location where said first portion interconnects with said shoulder portion, said overall length having a ratio to said first portion diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said first end and said shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said first portion diameter of no more than about 3.

United States Patent No. 6,678,983 entitled: “Ultra-short-action firearm for high-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A short-action firearm having an elongate chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber and a bolt, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position, said bolt providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber having a first end adjacent to said locked bolt face and a second end defined by a case mouth recess sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and being sized to matingly engage said cartridge so as to enable said cartridge to fire in said chamber with sufficient propellant to produce an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and to operably withstand said pressure, said bolt being capable of inserting said cartridge into said chamber and operably extracting said cartridge manually therefrom after firing of said cartridge at said pressure, said chamber having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber having an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having a first portion inner diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location where said first portion interconnects with said shoulder portion, said overall length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said locked bolt face and said frusto-conical shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3, said chamber being sized for operably receiving a cartridge free of any protrusion on said cartridge extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said chamber.

These are excerpts only and do not fully represent the subject matter covered by the patents.

Dan,

Thanks...but waht is your unofficial view of the validity...if mor comfortable email me. Heck I'll trade you an auotgraphed copy of my book...which is great for insomnia...

It looks like Jamison patented a chamber/bore ratio Idea more then a specific cartridge. This is a piece of his patent.
A search will turn up a large thread on www.24hourcampfire.com with comments from a few gun writers.

quote:

What is claimed is:

1. A short-action firearm having an elongate chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber and a bolt, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position, said bolt providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber having a first end adjacent to said locked bolt face and a second end defined by a case mouth recess sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and being sized to matingly engage said cartridge so as to enable said cartridge to fire in said chamber with sufficient propellant to produce an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and to operably withstand said pressure, said bolt being capable of inserting said cartridge into said chamber and operably extracting said cartridge manually therefrom after firing of said cartridge at said pressure, said chamber having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber having an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having a first portion inner diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location where said first portion interconnects with said shoulder portion, said overall length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said locked bolt face and said frusto-conical shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3, said chamber being sized for operably receiving a cartridge free of any protrusion on said cartridge extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said chamber.

2. The firearm of claim 1, said frusto-conical shoulder portion extending at an angle of less than 40.degree. with respect to a longitudinal axis of said chamber.

3. The firearm of claim 2, said shoulder portion extending at an angle of at least 30.degree. with respect to said longitudinal axis.

4. The firearm of claim 1, said frusto-conical shoulder portion extending at an angle of about 35.degree. with respect to a longitudinal axis of said chamber.

5. The firearm of claim 1 wherein said first portion length is less than 1.5 inch.

6. The firearm of claim 1 wherein said first portion length has a ratio to said first portion inner diameter of no more than about 2.5.

7. The firearm of claim 1 wherein said bolt has an extractor sized for operably gripping a rim portion of said cartridge having an outer rim diameter greater than 0.5 inch.

8. The firearm of any one of claim 1, said case mouth recess being sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile of a specific diameter within a range from 0.22 to 0.30 inch.

9. The firearm of any one of claims 1-8, including said cartridge cooperatively engaged with said chamber for firing.

10. The firearm of any one of claims 1-8 wherein said bolt has an extractor sized for operably gripping a rim portion of said cartridge having an outside diameter substantially no less than said first portion inner diameter at said location so as to insure reliable bolt operation of said firearm.

11. The firearm of any one of claims 1-8 wherein said bolt has an extractor adjacent to said bolt face, and a channel oriented transversely to said sliding direction of said bolt through which a rim portion of said cartridge is movable transversely to said sliding direction into gripping engagement by said extractor before said cartridge is inserted into said chamber.

12. A short-action firearm having an elongate chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber and a bolt, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position, said bolt providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber having a first end adjacent to said locked bolt face and a second end defined by a case mouth recess sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile, said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and being sized to matingly engage said cartridge so as to enable said cartridge to fire in said chamber with sufficient propellant to produce an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and to operably withstand said pressure, said bolt being capable of inserting said cartridge into said chamber and operably extracting said cartridge manually therefrom after firing of said cartridge at said pressure, said chamber having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber having an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having a first portion inner diameter at a location where said first portion interconnects with said shoulder portion, said overall length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said locked bolt face and said frusto-conical shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3, said bolt having an extractor sized for operably gripping a rim portion of said cartridge having an outer rim diameter greater than 0.5 inch, said chamber being sized for operably receiving a cartridge free of any protrusion on said cartridge extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said chamber.

13. The firearm of claim 12, said frusto-conicsal shoulder portion extending at an angle of less than 40.degree.with respect to a longitudinal axis of said chamber.

14. The firearm of claim 13, said shoulder portion extending at an angle of at least 30.degree. with respect to said longitudinal axis.

15. The firearm of claim 12, said frusto-conical shoulder portion extending at an angle of about 35.degree. with respect to a longitudinal axis of said chamber.

16. The firearm of claim 12 wherein said first portion length is less than 1.5 inch.

17. The firearm of claim 12 wherein said first portion length has a ratio to said first portion inner diameter of no more than about 2.5.

18. The firearm of claim 12, said case mouth recess being sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile of a specific diameter within a range from 0.22 to 0.30 inch.

19. The firearm of any one of claims 12-18, including said cartridge cooperatively engaged with said chamber for firing.

20. The firearm of any one of claims 12-18 wherein said bolt has an extractor sized for operably gripping a rim portion of said cartridge having an outside diameter substantially no less than said first portion inner diameter at said location so as to insure reliable bolt operation of said firearm.

21. The firearm of any one of claims 12-18 wherein said bolt has an extractor adjacent to said bolt face, and a channel oriented transversely to said sliding direction of said bolt through which a rim portion of said cartridge is movable transversely to said sliding direction into gripping engagement by said extractor before said cartridge is inserted into said chamber.

You can find the patent here....http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=45&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=jamison.INNM.&OS=in/jamison

The patent sounds like a good excuse for the gunsmith to avoid the WSM.

The gunsmth might get sued.
Pigs might fly.
Still a good excuse.
Better than sayiing to a customer, "You want a what? Those suck!"

Hey I just thought of sumptin (which is dangerous) with respect to intellectual property (IP)infringement (e.g. patent) the owner of the IP can sue anyone who derives benefit and where thw oner has not been compensated...therefore Jamison can sue all of us who have a WSM rifle.

I know you guys get nervous so anybody who is concerned I'll buy your rifle at 1/2 price to relieve you of this burden.

The short fat case in a short action has been done many times before, i.e., 284 Win, 348, and numerous wildcats, so I fail to see a single new idea or new functionality.

It is possible to patent a new COMBINATION of old things, like a recipe or process, but again, you would have to prove that your new combination had a new or superior function, and your patent would only be valid for that particular combination.

I know of one such small Mom & Pop gunsmithing business being sued for patent infringement claims by Rick, even though the short fat mags were developed and built as wildcats in the 60s by this gunsmith.

It will still cost any smith something to defend himself against Rick, who now has the capitol from the Winchester/Olin victory....

Aug ><>

Augustis,

What shop? It is a matter of public record so no hurt in telling...

quote:

It will still cost any smith something to defend himself against Rick, who now has the capitol from the Winchester/Olin victory....

As I understand it he got nothing, Winchester simply shut the door in place of paying him. Of course this is hearsay, I haven`t seen any agreement or court papers relating to this and neither parties are talking that I`ve heard.
He also lost his job at Shooting times and hasn`t been pick up by any other magazine I`ve heard of.

Mike,

It would take quite a bit of time for me to develop an informed view of the validity of the patents and I am not motivated to look into it very deeply. I do know, however, that C.P. Donnelly testified that he had built wildcats based on a cut-down .404 Jeff case back in the 1950's. Nonetheless, the Jamison patents survived this and other validity challenges and the court had access to a much more complete set of facts than we have either on this thread or on 24hourcampfire.

That does not mean I am in favor of the Jamison lawsuits. There is little enough margin in the firearms industry, and far too many players going bankrupt, to be able to support serious litigation. It also appears that Mr. Jamison's career in the firearms industry is at an end.

A note to Rick Jamieson;
I have chambered several WSM's (though I think they are stupid cartridges) and may well do some more. If you have a problem with this, I have a small box of sand and a hammer you can use to pound it up the appropriate orifice. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
A note to Rick Jamieson;
I have chambered several WSM's (though I think they are stupid cartridges) and may well do some more. If you have a problem with this, I have a small box of sand and a hammer you can use to pound it up the appropriate orifice. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
LMAO...
Jamison beat USRAC in teh patent case. Chambering a rifle for a WSM is not a violation... it's not PRODUCTION.

reasonable use

jeffe

That's the worst legal advice I have heard in 10 years.

and I aint a lawyer..


Or, like software compliers , compared to a reamer, you buy the PATENTED and Copyright item ONCE, pay the fee, ONCE and write as many programs as you like.

That preculdes the small guy from being involved in big licnsing agreements.. he already has a license, real or implied. As he bought a tool (reamer or complier) and would expect WITHOUT EXPLICT LICENSING that the seller of the tool meets the licensing agreements, as no one (large company, sure, but not people) pay a specific "patent license" fee.


Of course, there's that whole "reasonableness" thing... it's not reasonable to assume if you buy a reamer you can't use it, in a commerical setting

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
LMAO...
Jamison beat USRAC in teh patent case. Chambering a rifle for a WSM is not a violation... it's not PRODUCTION.

reasonable use

jeffe

That's the worst legal advice I have heard in 10 years.

and I aint a lawyer..


Or, like software compliers , compared to a reamer, you buy the PATENTED and Copyright item ONCE, pay the fee, ONCE and write as many programs as you like.

That preculdes the small guy from being involved in big licnsing agreements.. he already has a license, real or implied. As he bought a tool (reamer or complier) and would expect WITHOUT EXPLICT LICENSING that the seller of the tool meets the licensing agreements, as no one (large company, sure, but not people) pay a specific "patent license" fee.


Of course, there's that whole "reasonableness" thing... it's not reasonable to assume if you buy a reamer you can't use it, in a commerical setting

Jeff, you are in over your head.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
It also appears that Mr. Jamison's career in the firearms industry is at an end.

I hope so. I think his BS patent has done the most damage to the firearms industry since the Clintons....................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Jeff, you are in over your head.

Most probably, though I do have an opinion, as undereducated as it is.

If I buy a pill, made under patent, do you suggest that I need to pay, seperately, a royalty?

Next logical step...

If I buy that same pill, at a pharmacy, do I CARE who paid the royalty or if there IS one?

If I buy a reamer from midway, do I care any more?

However, if I am a buyer for either company of the above, I absolutly DO care and will have written proof....

This is where "legalism" departs from reasonableness.

Just for a twisted view of the subject, how many of you with WSM's, have checked the throat with a bore scope after firing 500 rounds? I know what you will see.

I have 800 shots thru my Kimber 8400 270 WSM and it's shooting better than ever. Looking thru the Siebert Mini Bore Scope which shows throats quite well shows it to still be smooth but the lands have moved forward some.

That does not matter a whit. I could not care less where the lands are as long as the rifle shoots and as I say it shoots better than ever. So there.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
I hope so. I think his BS patent has done the most damage to the firearms industry since the Clintons....................DJ

Just what damage is that? The figure I have heard is 3% royalty. That is 15 on a 500 rifle. The prices I see is that the WSM chamberings bring approx 50 dollars more then STD calibers. Why? Cause mfgs can get it. If and I say if Jaminson has a proper patent 15 bucks seems pretty reasonable to me.

Jeff, if you buy a patented drug from the patent holder or his licensee then you have an implied license.

Has Jamison licensed Midway to sell reamers to be used to make rifles covered by the Jamison patents? If not, then using a Midway reamer to make such a rifle would be an act of patent infringement.

Dan,
being in over one's head has hardly stopped other posters from posting ...

quote:

Has Jamison licensed Midway to sell reamers to be used to make rifles covered by the Jamison patents? If not, then using a Midway reamer to make such a rifle would be an act of patent infringement.

Accountability would be to makers, not midways, nor midway's purchaser. If rick likes, he can go after PPG, or clumer, who makes the reamers, as they would be the patent infringers

You know no one has a clue as to midway's status as a licensed vender... then again, it's irrelevant, as midway neither designs nor makes the reamers. The root question is, has Rick REQUIRED people to license his reamers? If no, then who actually cares?

Do you go after gunsmiths who bought reamers? Get serious.. you go after teh persons making the reamers, for a license fee, exactly like going after olin.


Back to the drugs, a pharmacy would be so far past "licensee" (wallyworld doesn't have pharmacuital labs)as to be impaterial. They would hold whomever sold the drugs to them accountable for licenses, and that person would be the accountable party.

So, in short, if I have a WSM reamer, legally and lawfuly purchased, I can make whatever I like from them, as Rick has not established a univeral "use" patent.

The djinn is out of the bottle, so to speak.

Jeffe