quote:

Originally posted by CDH:
The problem with this line of thought is that the inventor does actually suffer a provable loss...the loss of income they should have made by selling such item to you. That's a real damage.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
What I don't understand is why everyone is so down on Jamison. If he holds a proper patent he is entitled to compensation. Not only is that fair and proper it is legal.

And all of you who say you won't buy a WSM now because of the patent, do you have any idea how many patents exist on firearms and how much is paid in royalties to the holders?

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
As I understand it, if you make or use any patented item for your own use and not for resale, you have committed no legal offense whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Has it occured to you that there may be lots of exceptions not listed in the act which are none-the-less exceptions?

As I said before, you guys can believe anything you want....the earth is flat, the pyramids were actually built by Martians, whatever.

I still suggest that you need to consult with a real live, practicing, reputable, patent attorney. I have. My training and all the folks I have met who actually hold patents indicate that what I have told you is the way it is. If you wish to believe otherwise, have a ball.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
...OK I'll tell you exactly why I can't stand Jameson. HE DIDN'T INVENT THE WSM'S. I'm also aggrivated at the fool at the patent office that granted him one, but that wouldn't be so bad if Jameson wasn't using the bogus patent to extort money from anyone who likes the WSM's.
I loathe anyone who manipulates the legal system to get money they didn't earn and don't derserve. Jameson didn't invent the WSM's and so he doesn't deserve a cent from them.
The Clinton's used the legal system to try and put Gun Manufacturers out of business. Jameson used the legal system to feed his own greed and achieved a result the the Clinton's were aiming for. At least with the Clintons you knew who the enemy was. Jameson is just a greedy SOB that's extorting money from Me and other shooters who like the WSM's. It's almost enough to make me not ever want to use them.....................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
It is not an infringement to make somthing for your own use.

quote:

...OK I'll tell you exactly why I can't stand Jameson. HE DIDN'T INVENT THE WSM'S

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:

n in which a gun writer claims Jamison went to Winchester with his cartridges and was blown off by them only to have them later come out with the cartridge under a new name.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?C...age=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Wonder how many firearms wouldn't have been invented if John Browning wouldn't have been patent protected with his first one that Winchester purchased? What if they said, thats not new and made it anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Wonder how many firearms wouldn't have been invented if John Browning wouldn't have been patent protected with his first one that Winchester purchased? What if they said, thats not new and made it anyway?

quote:

That's not a good analogy. John Browning actually invented the firearms that he patented. JAMESON DIDN'T INVENT SHORT FAT CARTRIDGES! The PPC's had been around for quite a few years before he upscaled them and made them into WSM's. His original articles mentioned using the idea of the PPC's on a larger scale. Maybe Ferris Pindell should be suing Jameson. Jameson is nothing but a Greedy opportunist. John Browning was one of if not the greatest firearms inventor of all time.............DJ

quote:

There is another thread going at this time over on 24hour campfire discussing this topic once again in which a gun writer claims Jamison went to Winchester with his cartridges and was blown off by them only to have them later come out with the cartridge under a new name.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?C...age=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

This is all inter-net gossip, I have no idea how true it is I`m just repeting what I`ve read.

Weather or not he was the first to design these cartridges, he was the first to lay claim. The patent was awarded to him and the courts appear to have agreed to his ownership. I don`t know squat about patent law but I do know if Winchester, Remington or other big company owned the rights to a cartridge and felt a need to demand royalties and none would question their right.
I am not backing Jamison as much as it appears I am, but I am standing behind any patent holder that tries to protect their property. This includes Chiness DVD boot-leggers auto industry part copies, ect.
I know nothing but what I have read on the web about the case but the courts seem to agree with him for what ever reason, so his case seems to have some merit.
As to who really first came up with the WSM cartridge idea, it likely was some old `smith with too much time on his hands back during the depression after pulling a 348 Win case out of a 500 nitro chamber that some knot head managed to get to fire with out distroying the evidence..and no $$ to patent it..

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
It appears that Mr. Jamison has covered both the firearms and the ammo, and making, using, selling or offering to sell either of them in the U.S. would be an act of patent infringement.


U.S. Patent No. 5,825,361 entitled “Short-action chamber and bolt assembly for high power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A firearm chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber for matingly receiving a tubular cartridge case, and an elongate bolt, having a bolt face, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position for pushing said cartridge case into said chamber and providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and having a first end, adjacent to said locked bolt face, for insertably receiving said cartridge case and a second end defining a case mouth recess for said cartridge case, said chamber having a first portion of a substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber defining an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having an inner chamber diameter at a location 1.25 inch from said locked bolt face of at least about 0.53 inch, said overall length having a ratio to said inner chamber diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said bolt having an extractor adjacent to said bolt face and a channel oriented transversely to said sliding direction of said bolt through which a rim portion of said cartridge, having an outside diameter substantially no less than said inner chamber diameter at said location, is movable transversely to said sliding direction into gripping engagement by said extractor before said cartridge is inserted into said chamber.

U.S. Patent No. 5,970,879 entitled “High-power firearm cartridge for short-action chamber and bolt assemblyâ€.

Claim 1: A firearm cartridge having a projectile and an elongate tubular case capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 50,000 psi, said case having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having an outer case diameter at a location 1.25 inches from said first end, said overall length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said outer case diameter at said location being at least about 0.53 inch, said rim having an outer rim diameter substantially no less than said outer case diameter at said location.

U.S. Patent No. 6,354,221 entitled: “High-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A firearm cartridge having a projectile within a range from 0.224 to 0.458 caliber and an elongate tubular case capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least 50,000 psi, said cartridge having sufficient propellant to fire in a short-action firearm at an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and being manually extractable after firing, said case having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having an outer case diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location 1.25 inches from said first end, said overall length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said first end and said shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 3.33, said firearm cartridge being free of any protrusion extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said case, said rim having an outer rim diameter substantially no less than said outer case diameter at said location so as to insure reliable bolt operation of the firearm.


United States Patent No. 6,550,174 entitled “Short-action firearm for high-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A short-action firearm having an elongate chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber and a bolt, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position, said bolt providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber having a first end adjacent to said locked bolt face and a second end defined by a case mouth recess sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile of a specific caliber within a range from 0.224 to 0.458 caliber, said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and being sized to matingly engage said cartridge so as to enable said cartridge to fire in said chamber with sufficient propellant to produce an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and to operably withstand said pressure, said bolt being capable of inserting said cartridge into said chamber and operably extracting said cartridge manually therefrom after firing of said cartridge at said pressure, said chamber having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber having an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having an inner chamber diameter at a location 1.25 inch from said locked bolt face of at least 0.53 inch, said overall length having a ratio to said inner chamber diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said locked bolt face and said frusto-conical shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said inner chamber diameter at said location of no more than about 3.33, said chamber being sized for operably receiving a cartridge free of any protrusion on said cartridge extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said chamber, said bolt having an extractor sized for operably gripping a rim portion of said cartridge having an outer rim diameter greater than 0.5 inch.

U.S. Patent No. 6,595,138 entitled “High-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A cartridge for firing in a mating short-action firearm chamber, said cartridge having a projectile within a range from 0.224 to 0.458 caliber and an elongate tubular case, having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and groove, capable of operably withstanding, and having sufficient propellant to fire at, an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi when in said chamber, and being operably extractable manually after firing at said pressure, said case having a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having an outer case diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location 1.25 inches from said first end, said overall length having a I ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 4.2, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said first end and said shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said outer case diameter at said location of no more than about 3.33, said cartridge being free of any protrusion extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said case, said case being capable of withstanding said internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi when in said chamber without permanent deformation of said groove longitudinally of said case.

United States Patent No. 6,675,717 entitled “Ultra-short high-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A cartridge for firing in a mating short-action firearm chamber, said cartridge having a projectile and an elongate tubular case, having a first end defining a substantially circular base with an annular rim and groove, capable of operably withstanding, and having sufficient propellant to fire at, an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi when in said chamber, and being operably extractable manually after firing at said pressure, said case having a second end defining a mouth for insertably receiving said projectile, said case having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said case having an overall length extending between said first end and said second end, and said first portion having a first portion diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location where said first portion interconnects with said shoulder portion, said overall length having a ratio to said first portion diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said first end and said shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said first portion diameter of no more than about 3.

United States Patent No. 6,678,983 entitled: “Ultra-short-action firearm for high-power firearm cartridgeâ€.

Claim 1: A short-action firearm having an elongate chamber and bolt assembly comprising a tubular chamber and a bolt, selectively slidable longitudinally in a sliding direction between a retracted unlocked position and an extended locked position, said bolt providing a locked bolt face when said bolt is in said locked position, said chamber having a first end adjacent to said locked bolt face and a second end defined by a case mouth recess sized for operably receiving a cartridge with a projectile said chamber being capable of withstanding internal gas pressures of at least about 65,000 psi and being sized to matingly engage said cartridge so as to enable said cartridge to fire in said chamber with sufficient propellant to produce an internal gas pressure of at least 50,000 psi and to operably withstand said pressure, said bolt being capable of inserting said cartridge into said chamber and operably extracting said cartridge manually therefrom after firing of said cartridge at said pressure, said chamber having a first portion of substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said first end and a second portion of a narrower substantially cylindrical shape adjacent to said second end, and a frusto-conical shoulder portion interconnecting said first portion and said second portion, said chamber having an overall length measured from said locked bolt face to said second end of said chamber, said first portion having a first portion inner diameter of at least about 0.53 inch at a location where said first portion interconnects with said shoulder portion, said overall length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3.5, said first portion having a first portion length extending between said locked bolt face and said frusto-conical shoulder portion, said first portion length having a ratio to said first portion inner diameter at said location of no more than about 3, said chamber being sized for operably receiving a cartridge free of any protrusion on said cartridge extending radially outwardly beyond said cylindrical shape of said first portion of said chamber.

These are excerpts only and do not fully represent the subject matter covered by the patents.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Jamison did not patent short fat cartridges, he patented one with a particular shape, specific dimensions. He showed it to Winchester, they said no thanks and then copied it. I have no hard feelings towards him, it is his patent. If you wanted to push the shoulder ahead .005" you could build that different cartridge and ammo etc. Winchester took an easy route figuring nothing would happen and it did. Blame Winchester for not doing the right thing when it was offered to them.