What would you really do, if money IS and issue ultimately? You have two choices.

[1] Montana 1999 action


or

[2] Persian BRNO M98/29 Barreled Action

333, if money was an issue down the line, my choice would be neither of the above as I don]t care for the Montana and could never bust up a minty mauser as shown
There are lots of the newer win classic's floating around that can be had for a bargin, bust it up for the action and get going on that project.
I picked up two of these complete guns, one at 350. and one at 300. not a bad price for complete gun.

sorry to hijack.

Could you please tell me the differance between the Montana 1999 and a Win70. To my untrained eye they look very very similar.

I would have a hard time carving up a mint mauser too. I bought a Swede 96 for $100 with the intent of making a deer rifle out of it. Its a georgous rifle, I just can't bring myself to carve it up.

Montana, only because it avoids a ton of gunsmithing needed to sporterize the .mil action.

I would cut up that Mauser in a minute, if that's what I had or could afford.

Just a few of the similarities and then the differences. The Montana is similar to the Mod 70 in that it has the same trigger mechanism, the same three position safety and the same exterior bridge contour so that you can use Mod 70 bases. It is different in that instead of an anti-bind groove in the right locking lug it uses an almost dovetail left locking lug. It has the same "C" inner ring in front of the lug recess as the Mauser does and similar bolt release. Check out this thread; http://www.montanarifleman.com/actions.htm

Count me in with Jimmy! I'd get a M-70 donner rifle and go from there. I hate to knock the Montana's but I'd pass. I've seen two in person and didn't like either one.

Another thing to consider, you can pull the barrel and the stock and those nut's on ebay will pay dearly for it I bet you would come out cheaper than a montana action this way and have a better action too.

Don't get me wrong, I love a custom Mauser, but you mentioned wanting to save money.

Terry

I would go with that mauser, hands down. It may be a nice piece but it will make a nicer 338-06

Between the two, the Montana.
I'd also consider a commercial FN, no gunsmithing required, arguably the finest 98 Mauser ever made, $250 area.

depends on if you want a mauser or not.

I'll wind up doing something on an MRC, just to do it.. proably will change the bolt release.. not crazy about that part

in the long run, the mrc is FAR less dollars, to have the same features..
assume 400 for the mrc, which includes
safety
trigger
feeding
nice mag and floorplate

put those on a mauser
150 safety
50 trigger
200 feeding/boltface/bolthandle/drill-tap
85 - numrich mag
100 - action
585 to get there

jeffe

This is easy, the Montana.

After doing 4 milsurp 98s I finally learned. Two I still have and will always have. The other two, when I consider the $ stuck into the action, (see Jeffe above) I sold at quite a loss.

Jim

First question I would ask myself is does the Farsi writting on the left rail both you. I like the 98/29's but I am not crazy on the Farsi. Second does the crest mean anything to you? IF I was going to build a 98/29 I would be looking at preserving the crest if I could, I just love the lion.

There is no doubt that the MRC is going to save you some dollars in the long run, but when I build a rifle how much is much less important than what I get. Spending dollars on custom builds is about getting exactly what you like, when you compromise along the way, you end up with a lot of dollars tied up in something that isn't what you want.

Me I am not a fan of the MRC actions, if I was looking at new actions there would be other starting points for me.

You can also trim a few bucks off of your build by selecting a different mauser action to start with, a VZ-24 runs less than the 98/29's.

Jeffes numbers are ballpark on the mauser also, for me the safety either costs more ( 3 position ) or less on a 2 position, the trigger is a little more, and good bottom metal and mag costs a lot more.

Are these the absolute only actions your interested in? New production actions are the Legacy Arms and a new Model 70, and old production a FN action beats the pants of all of the other options on dollars invested, unless you plan on changing out the safety.

Bottom line is custom rifles all cost money, get what you want cause the real value in them is you get exactly what you want and saving up a few more months to get exactly what you want will be forgotten a lot sooner, than a rifle in your safe that is a " I should have " that goes on for years, and the extra dollars invested are soon forgotten.

Of the two I'd pick the Montana action....and easily. IMO the mil-surp '98 actions while a fine action properly smithed are in fact way way over tauted in quality. They are expensive to modernize and in the end you can't get half of what you have in them.

That said I'd not again build with either the mauser or the Montana.....there's a lot of M-70 actions out there and the prices (properly monitored) are excellent.

Also bear in mind that push feed is definitely not a dirty word......at least not here.

I have not actually played around with a M/70 Classic. I had one of the new generation M/70 featherweights w/o CR feeding and hated the gun. That was my opinion, but it felt cheap.

I take it these new Classics are different?

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
I have not actually played around with a M/70 Classic. I had one of the new generation M/70 featherweights w/o CR feeding and hated the gun. That was my opinion, but it felt cheap.

I take it these new Classics are different?

Yes, the Classics are CRF.

Rusty marlin,

MRC action is a casting,
M70 is from a forging.

Some people dont like this being brought up, but you aked the difference and it is a pure and simple technical fact that that is one of them.How people rank that difference in importance varies according to the individual.
Other industries still see the value of forging over casting;
High end fishing tackle use forged spools, handles.
Performance cars/bikes use forged pistons,cranks, conrods,wheels/rims.

Top end magnum mauser action producers still use forgings.
Echols & Miller use the M70 for their pricey rigs.I have not seen them use a Montana as yet.And as already stated by someone,You can get that m70 action 2nd hand for the same price as a new Montana.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
MRC action is a casting,
M70 is from a forging.

Aww geez, not this shit again..........

333, I would say "some" of the new classic's are outstanding. When I considered my custom, I talked to a few smith's and they seemed to prefer the new classic over the pre-64. I had both guns, a pre 64 264 mag and a classic Super Grade in 338 mag, which became the custom 264.
I am more than happy with the results of the custom , shoots very well and is much smoother than the stock pre 64.

For my purposes, and understanding the metallurgy used in both the casting and the forging, I am not concerned about that point. There might be a point when this would matter, but you need to be pushing the envelope so hard that I am far from concerned. I am looking more into function, performance, and aesthetics. I have handled some very fine Mausers, but I hate the bolt play that I often find. The ones without the bolt play were heavily worked over.......

Maybe I need to just get a Mannlicher Schoenauer and tear it apart for my custom? This is by far my preference but I will never ruin a complete original rifle.

Except for the cast/forged thing what's not to like about the MRC 1999? OK, I'll admit it's a little heavy but I got a MRC 1999 barreled action (blued, left-hand, .308 Win.) last July (on special from MRC) for $550. I got a very nice walnut stock that fits perfectly from the supplier to CZ for the CZUSA 3 American for $117. It's a beautiful rifle, shoots great, and cost under $700. Another plus is the customer service at MRC...great folks to deal with.
I really like Mausers and Mod. 70's and the MRC 1999 (in my opinion) combines the best features of both at a reasonable price. Plus it's available in both right AND left hand, in all calibers and action lengths, at no additional cost.
I was lucky to find what I wanted on special but keep an eye on the MRC website for additional deals.

Jon

I am personally not versed enough to detail the differences, but several people who DO know, have detailed to me from an engineering standpoint, that the Model 70 does not handle gas well. I certainly believe this to be a fact. I don't plan on case head seperations or other failures, but I will not buy a rifle that doesn't handle this well.

The Montana is one of the most rugged actions available, and gas handling is well thought out and robustly incorporated into the action.

Some of our gunsmith members might know the diff, but even some of the guys who have described the lack of good gas handling by the Model 70 to me (notably Darcy Echols) build rifles based on Win Model 70 actions.

I have been told that some very current M-70's have had a modification that improves the gas handling of that action. I don't know that one way or the other either.

I don't own either one of these actions, but I have always liked Winchester, have wanted to buy one of their rifles many times, and almost exclusively used Winchester when using factory ammo, but I never would buy a Win Model 70 based on what I had been convinced about their gas handling abilities.

Again, I am not versed enough to fully grasp these differences from a technical perspective, (I'm trying to get there) but perhaps it is worth taking into account

Seriously one of the things that I enjoy about a cartridge is shooting it as it was originally designed. I have a 6.5X54MS that will never see a hot load in its life. The gun has had less than 100 rounds in its life and never will have a hot load and it is well over 100 years old.

The rifle I plan on building on the 6.5X55SE with the 1999 Montana will be shot with 156 grain loads equal to original factory and military loads, just like 100 years ago. I think that is cool. If I wanted a hot 6.5 I would make a 6.5X284 Win or a 6.5-06AI or even a 6.5X68 & 264 Win Mag, but I seriously do not need that. I have shots on blacktail deer at 50-350 yards and the Swede will do great. It will also slay a feral boar at 250 yards or further. Black bear at 150 yards max, no problem.

Nostalgia in the cartridge, but not the guns anymore, they are just too damned short for a 6'8" guy trying to be traditional. I want a gun that truly fits!

quote:

The rifle I plan on building on the 6.5X55SE

Based on that and your not planning to hot rod your rifle I wouldn't pick any of the above actions, they are all bigger and heavier than they need to be. Keeping your budget numbers in mind it limits you a little. My personal first choice would be a G33/40, excellent choice of action for your Swede. Next down the list would be a small ring like a Mexican.

New production for the Swede is a little more difficult, all of the new actions are either too big, or too small. I know of no real intermediate length actions currently in production ( if I am wrong here clue me in as I would be interested ).

I think I would still look at a model 70 for a new action still, HPshooter might not care about cast vrs forged, but I do. I think bottom metal, and the bolt handle might get replaced, so I would be price sensitive on what I bought it for, but still good parts.

I have a off the wall option, why not build up a Husky or a Carl Gustaf, you can find one chambered in a 6.5x55 which saves you rebarreling, and then you can fiddle with your custom bits a tad, restock it to fit you, which is a big chunk of change to do properly and you will be dollars ahead and end up with sweet old/new rifle. If you look around and get picky on buying one you could get some definate goodies that would cost serious bucks to duplicate, example is the little rear peep sight on the Huskies.

Something to think on at least.

Amazing, but this came full circle. Originally, I had proposed to use a Husqvarna model 46, or 640 commercial model 96 action for the gun. They are slim and trim and look hot, but everyone that I chatted with minus like 2, were totally against it. Everyone said 98. Unfortunately I passed on a totally hot deal for a mint 640 with an "improved" 96 for $225...Ouch! Maybe it is time to revisit this as an option! I have a model 96 in my gun cabinet, but I cannot bring myself to tear apart a matching number rifle from 1906.

Here is a pic compliments of Tiggertate, the rear sight on these is enough to get me looking at one of these.



333OKH, my suggestion is get what you want, its your money, your time, and your rifle, ignore all us internet experts, get or build what you want. What makes me happy isn't your cup of tea, and I know that cherry wood for me makes good nightstands and jewerly boxes, not good gunstocks. But it isn't my gun, and I don't have to like it.

Make yourself happy and bugger all the armchair experts, both of my my gunsmiths ( and close personal friends ) say I am almost a man with a mission sometimes and I am not willing to compromise points on my rifle builds ( they are always tryihg to save me money, again they are friends ), when I get an idea or concept worked out I usually won't budge a nanometer, I don't mind paying for quality and getting what I want, and on more than one project rifle both my friends have ceded when they saw the final product I was right. I picked up a 1952 model 70 that the rifle was an absolute rag, but the action was cherry on it. My smith haggled me a lot on that rifle, after it was lapped, trued, polished and had a match barrl installed his tone changed, and he saw the stock I bought for it and admitted it was drop dead gorgeous, and he is just as anxious to see it in completion as I am.

Bottom line, stick to your guns, get what you want, and enjoy it.

I personally think a nice 6.5x55 would be a neat project, I also think you should stretch out you timeline some, it serves two purposes. First it gives you time to really work out details, and second it gives more available dollars into the project both are pluses towards the final product.

quote:

I personally think a nice 6.5x55 would be a neat project, I also think you should stretch out you timeline some, it serves two purposes. First it gives you time to really work out details, and second it gives more available dollars into the project both are pluses towards the final product.

I am actually not on a timeline, just typiclly a litte impatient. I like an action to fit a cartrige and not be too long or short. This is why I like the Montana 1999 and the Mauser M/96 action for the 6.5X55Se. They are designed for that length cartrige. The M/700 and M/70 are either 308 or 30'06, too long or too short.

I do love the cherry, but I am realizing this might be a shot in the dark for the wood I am looking ofr. I also love certain black walnuts, like those from Oregon and Washington and I can find those easily and cheaply. I do not like English and that is just me!

At least I know a lot of the details of the rifle I do want, like the 5130 barrel profile from Lothar, and the sights, and the stlye stock and the and the.....

I have only seen one Montana 1999 and it looked like it needed A LOT more "finishing". Just looked like it had too many rough spots. I'm sure that is due to the casting, but I don't know the pros and cons when discussing cast vs. forged. Several hours of finishing work and I agree that the Mod 1999 could be really nice.

Interesting point about the cartridge length.

Give the 1999 a go and see. Those darn Mausers look like a pain to get in the shape that I would want them. They sure look neat when they're done though. Pricey too.

quote:

5130

That profile would look sweet on a G33/40, yeah they are expensive and hard to find but in the end they are excellenent. I ordered mine to put on a VZ-24.

Better yet on of the Husqvarna M/98s



I would also really like the Husqvarna M/96s, but that is a heated topic at times.




This is really hard to decide....petite little 96, or rugged 98?

I appreciate all of your guys opinons and experience. I will look into the G33/40. I have seen one locally still asa complete rifle.

I was looking at the different modern actions like the Montana 1999 and the Global Mauser 98 and found that the Montana is considerably lighter than the Global, by 0.67 pounds. How much does a M/70 Calssic action weigh? Also, after a military M/98 is finishes with a new safety and adj trigger, what is a ball park weight for it?

Schromf--I just measured the barrel on my 1952 Mannlicher Schoenauer and noticed that it is the same as the Lothar 5130 other than the lack of a straight taper for the band rear sight. I love that barrel on the MS1952.

I've got two Montana 1999 short actions sitting on top of the gun safe. I don't know if I'll ever use them, they're pretty rough. I bought them during the initial fire sale when they were all the fad. To my eye the M70 winchester is a lot more polished out of the box. I don't do milsurp mausers. In my opinion they're too much work, and the metal too suspect. A much better choice would be one of the new charles daly mausers, same as the old interarms mark X. They've got modern steel and are decently finished, just needing a bit to get cleaned up. No way I'd use a milsurp for anything.

quote:

333_OKH: I will look into the G33/40.

Here's one for sale on GunBroker:
G33/40Mauser

What about using one of the Husqvarna or FN commercial from the early 40s?

Or the Parker hale rifles that appear on M/98 actions like the 81, 1000, or 1200. What quality are the Parker Hale bolt rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH: Also, after a military M/98 is finishes with a new safety and adj trigger, what is a ball park weight for it?

Usually somewhere between 7 and 9 lbs depending on barrel length and contour and the type (wood or synthetic) of stock used.

333 OKH,

I have bought two M99 actions, and they are larger and heavier than what you want for a 6.5X55.

I had a Tradewinds Husky that had been rebored to .338-'06, and they are trim rifles.

I recently bought a commercial Mauser from member Weagle here on AR.

The rifle was made by Heym for Montgomery Wards, and the action is an intermediate length. There are more of them around, look for the Model 720 designation.

jim

I will look for those! How is the Heym action????

What about using one of the Husqvarna or FN commercial from the early 40s?

Or the Parker hale rifles that appear on M/98 actions like the 81, 1000, or 1200. What quality are the Parker Hale bolt rifles and who made the actions?

333 OKH,

I can't tell from the markings if Heym or someone else supplied this action. Heym is marked on the barrel in two places. It was proved in West Germany in '63.

I like those FN commercial actions, and the Husqvarna rifles I have seen would work well.

My references say the Parker Hale rifles used actions from Spain. I don't have any experience with them, but the Spanish Santa Barbara actions have been tagged as on the soft side.

jim

quote:

My references say the Parker Hale rifles used actions from Spain. I don't have any experience with them, but the Spanish Santa Barbara actions have been tagged as on the soft side.

I had one of these and found it not to be suitable long term. Seriously, put a draw file into the metal and you will know what I mean.

That Heym Pictured,

out of curiosity, does it have the internal C-ring? what is its metalurgy like, is it relatively "soft" like an 09 argentine,or what is it like?

Woodjack,

The pictured rifle has the internal C-Ring.

I have not done any tests of the metal beyond visual inspection under glass and strong sunlight. The action body shows evidence of hardness testing, and it and the various parts of the bolt are stamped with "1" quality indicators.

jim

Okay, I have a ako Finnbear that has a cracked stock, but the action is perfect. The barrel looks good, but not great, but again the action is perfect. What model action is this and would it be good for a custom rifle? It sure is smooth.