I sent a rifle to Brockmans for some feed work.
It was sent by FEDEX ground and insured for $6000.00, the cost of the rifle. The agent checked to contents prior to shipping. It was shipped in a foam padded airline/mail approved gun case. It arrived at Brockmans in two pieces.They took pictures of the damage. I made a claim which they rejected. I went to another claim specialist and she rejected the claim. I asked for an indipendant adjuster and she told me that it appeared that the damage was done in shipping. Still FEDEX refuses to pay the claim. I have spoken to a couple of Attourny's and no one seems to want to help me. What should I do next? Is there anyone on the forum with similar situation/solution/resolution or am I going to have to eat it????? I need to send two more rifles out to Penrod Custom for some work.He wants the entire rifle not just the barreled action. I am afraid the same could happen again. What suggestions can you give me to insure that when I send good items out that people are made responsible for damages!!!!!

Small claims court goes up to $4,000.00 here in Idaho. It is more in some states. Take your case to court there. Bring all your evidence. With the pictures, chain of custody and independent report you will prevail. Get a couple of bids on carving a new stock (don't forget to upgrade the wood ). Dress neatly, but don't wear a fancy suit. Blue shirt, chinos and a conservative tie works well. Speak plainly, and don't get emotional. Talk about how you chose FedEx because of its reputation for professionalism, prompt delivery and fairness. Tell the judge you just want your property returned to the state it was in before you entrusted it to FedEx. They took your money for the extra insurance. They need to honor their duty to care for your property.

You will win.

never back down,
lawndart

PS They can't bring a lwyer to small claims court. Also you get to add on your mileage and out of pocket expenses from having to argue with them. Small claims court was designed for just this sort of situation.

You can also bring a formal complaint with your state insurance commision.

If your state has a consumer protection division of the attorney general's office you can also lodge a complaint with them.

The most important thing is to avoid emotion and stay on track about what they did and what you want to resolve the issue.

Finally,
Use your spell check, and have somebody go over all your documents to ensure correct spelling and grammar. In this day and age that will put the fear of God into an opponent, and get the judge on your side better than anything else.

I am not an attorney, but when I have been given an affidavit or other document prepared by one I send it back with the spelling and grammar corrected with a red pen. That really puts them off their feed.

Also, an attorney will take your case if you are willing to pay them up front. When you win in that case you will be reimbursed for your legal fees.

lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
PS They can't bring a lwyer to small claims court.

Not true. Oklahoma law allows this.

Next time, use the Postal Service. Twice the service and half the bullshit.

In my experience, the key to succesfully filing a damaged frieght claim lies in what takes place at the recieving end of the shipment. To make a long story short, never, ever, sign for a damaged shipment without clearly placing a notation on the bill of lading the nature of the damage and getting a copy of the bill. You must describe the damage as consicely as possible and the delivering driver will most likely try to discourage that or make his own notation, especially if he was involved in the damage to cover his butt. If you have this you have a case, a strong case. To not make a notation of damage at the time of accepting the delivery is in essence releasing the carrier of liability, it is called getting a bill signed clear.

This is something that all customers of the frieght business should have the right to know but are rarley made aware of. Im not sure how fed-ex approaches this sort of thing, but I believe that they do use a standard bill of lading. UPS is notorious for cheating the customers out of this right. Their little hand held gizmo has no place whatsoever for accomadating a damage notation.

Even if you do not have a bill with a notation of damaged frieght you still have a right to engage in business without getting screwed. Frieght claims are the achilies heel of the fright business and they will fight them when they can, fight back if you are able.

Good luck with your case. I hope this helps.

On 2 occasions, articles I sent via FEDEX arrived destroyed. They were packed incredibly well, but Fedex's answer to my claim (in both cases) was "inadequate cushioned packaging". They clearly lied. I have not since used Fedex...would NEVER use them again. I am confident theirs is a "shove it" policy.

quote:

Not true. Oklahoma law allows this.

Thanks for the correction.

I'm going to OK City in March for an FAA course for a week. I hadn't budgeted any sightseeing time. That is correct?

lawndart

The vast majority of states allow an attorney to represent you in small claims court.

However, it is the ONE court in which the judge will allow you some latitude in not knowing the letter of the law when you present your case before him.

You will definetly need a sworn affidavit from the person who (personally) received and signed for the package, and the person (if different) who examined the contents.
All that takes is a notarized statement from the gunsmith in this case.

I suspect that if you go ahead and file the claim in Small Claims Court, Fed-Ex will roll over on the settlement.

Bring someone with you for moral support.
Also, lots of people post on the internet about their particular dealings in small claims court. Do a Google search and see if you can find anything out.
Strategy counts, as does organization.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by Just Some Guy:
Next time, use the Postal Service. Twice the service and half the bullshit.

I would disagree with this. The only rifle that I ever shipped USPS arrived with a broken stock. USPS, UPS, and FEDEX are all the same - rarely will they take responsibility. I ship rifles now ONLY in hard cases, usually that means I have to buy one for the sale. I don't trust any of the shipping companies.

I presume some negligence can be ascribed to the company as they viewed the contents of your packages, knew it's value, and clearly had the ability to assess your packaging prior to shipment. An affidavit to this end would be needed. However, that guy will probably not help you as it would mean losing his job probably.

Get the shipping regs from your shipper before you ship your other rifles - then follow them to the letter plus 50% extra. If it ever happens again, that won't have a leg to stand on.

I had a similar situation with UPS only not for that much money. A Model 12 Winchester arrived broken in half. The "insurance adjuster" claimed that I had shipped a broken gun in order to make an insurance claim. I learned that UPS contracted for insurance coverage. The insurance outfit apparently has a "just say no to all claims" policy. An insider at UPS told me that once they accept the package and the insurance is paid for, they have to pay.

Chances are they are playing hardball with you to see if you will settle for a lesser amount. They will make you jump through a lot of hoops. Be patient, get your documentation in order, and take them to task.

lb404,
I do not know what you can do in this situation, but in the future, ship it USPS registered mail. Each and every person who handles the item has to sign off on it when it is handed to the next person. You can also insure it up to $26K and the insurance is much cheaper. It is by far the most secure way to send something.

BTW, what is the reason that they are refusing the claim? UPS is notorious for that but I had never heard it from Fedex.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:

quote:

Originally posted by Just Some Guy:
Next time, use the Postal Service. Twice the service and half the bullshit.

I would disagree with this. The only rifle that I ever shipped USPS arrived with a broken stock.

You shipped only ONE rifle via the Postal Service? HA!!! I guess a worldy experience like that only leaves me with one answer: you really don't know what you're talking about here. See Customstox's answer if you're unclear.

JSG,
bubba.. the first one he sent was broken in shipment.. I doubt i'd send another that way...

it's been said that the first sign of insanity is to repeat actions with the expectation of different results.

But, then again, I imagine that if this had been shipped UPS with ammo, and the package was inspected, the claim would have been rejected.

ya'll have a nice day.

jeffe

IB, shoot me an email with the tracking number. i have in's and might be able to see what is goin' on with all the scans. not just the ones they are telling you about. comments etc.
also, check the website for the delivery scan performed. there are many different scans for a delivery. i.e. release, del next door etc. there is also a scan for a refused delivery (damamged), accepted del of a damaged package etc. if brockmans signed the delivery log with a normal delivery scan (no damage) then your probably sucking water. if they signed a delivery complete w/damage then there should be notes in that scan by the courier stating what damage there was. couriers like to abbreviate so take a deep breath.
anyway, that is your first stop. send me an email and i will see what i can do.
woofer

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
JSG,
bubba.. the first one he sent was broken in shipment.. I doubt i'd send another that way...

it's been said that the first sign of insanity is to repeat actions with the expectation of different results.

But, then again, I imagine that if this had been shipped UPS with ammo, and the package was inspected, the claim would have been rejected.

ya'll have a nice day.

jeffe

I wouldn't condemn the Postal Service based on a SINGLE experience. Their main hangup is their bureaucracy. Once you learn to navigate that, they're pretty easy and reliable.

FYI, one of the members here is a postmaster (Jeff Alexander).

JSG:

Perhaps I should put it this way:

100% of the rifles I've sent by USPS arrived broken. Sample size = 1.

100% of the rifles I've sent UPS arrived safely. Sample size = 100-150.

Given this, even if I sent the next 100-150 guns I sell USPS and they all arrived safely, they would STILL have a worse success rate than UPS.

BTW, I wasn't condemning USPS wholesale, just pointing out that they too drop the ball just like the other carriers. Despite my success with UPS, I still don't trust them.

One hundred%=1 of the rifles I sent UPS arrived with a chipped butt stock. they refused the claim.

100%=2 of the rifles I have sent and recieved via USPS have made it just fine.

100%=1 of the double rifles I have recieved via FEDEX, came through just fine.

I must admit that the rifles that made it in all cases were removed from their stocks and packaged seperately in the same box with the stock.

You can use a shorter box and reduce the leverage that can be used to apply pressure to the stock. It just makes more sense to removed the barreled action from the stock when possible.
Just my opine.

Chic, the reason for rejecting the claim was improper packing and no visible damage. The thing is that I used an airline and mail approved hard gun case (not a tuff pack) but a hard case none the less. How can an approved case that had been used for 20-30 other similar transportation transactions be suddenly not a good option. George Caswell at Champlins told me that no matter how you pack one improper handling can destroy a gun. Just dropping the thing on a hard surface can shock the stock enough to break it.

I disagree with the assertion that you can't pack a gun well enough.

If you want to be absolutely sure something comes through, you can use insulating foam. The stuff that comes in cans. Fill two plastic bags, one on each side of the stock with the stuff, inside a box. The foam with fill every nook and cranny, providing puncture as well as crushing protection. It takes a little practice to keep from using too much.

I have shipped single china plates packed like this overseas, surface mail. Never a problem. When you get to the other side, slide the plastic bags out of the box, and with a little luck, the two bags will have formed a "clamshell". With a little bad luck, you'll need to cut some foam to get at the gun. HTH, Dutch.

Let us get real here folks. If a rifle is shipped in a airline approved gun case that also meets the criteria for mail then any damage comes from rough handling, would you not agree. No one expects their package to undergo a torture test just to arrive safely. There is a duty that the shipping company, any shipping company, has to take care of the goods they ship. They all sell some kind of insurance to help spread the liability a bit. They took the package after inspection, I bought the insurance to cover loss or damage, and the goods were damaged. Where is my thinking off on this? I have lost a rifle that can not easily be replaced. They are responsible.

Dutch, what do you do when they ask to see the firearm before shipping?

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
JSG:

Perhaps I should put it this way:

100% of the rifles I've sent by USPS arrived broken. Sample size = 1.

100% of the rifles I've sent UPS arrived safely. Sample size = 100-150.

Given this, even if I sent the next 100-150 guns I sell USPS and they all arrived safely, they would STILL have a worse success rate than UPS.

BTW, I wasn't condemning USPS wholesale, just pointing out that they too drop the ball just like the other carriers. Despite my success with UPS, I still don't trust them.

100% of the firearms I've sent via USPS, UPS, and Federal Express have arrived safely (maybe 200 or more).

UPS just SUCKS. Period. I'm through being treated like a second-class citizen and possible criminal by those bastards.

Federal Express is just mediocre in my experience. However, I had a buddy who shipped a custom rifle a few years ago that wound up getting its buttstock broken (custom Model 99 Savage). Just like lb404, they tried to deny the claim. He ultimately got it resolved, but only after another friend of his, who had some stroke with Federal Express (a Federal Express exec), got involved.

USPS at first was a big pain in the ass, but after I learned their rules and how to navigate their bureacracy, they've become my shipper of choice on long guns, including some rather expensive transferable MGs.

If the Postal Service couldn't resolve your complaint to your satisfaction, then you weren't complaining to the right people.

Not to beat the issue to death or cross swords with anyone but FEDEX, what are some options other than legal at this point. Small claims court has a limit on amount and my claim exeeds that amount and the lawyers in my area have so far not been motivated to help me. If you add the costs of an Attorney to the claim it could get up there. I am not being unreasonable, I don't think. The insurance carrier not FEDEX is going to pay so what's up?????

I had a gun shipped FedEx that arrived with a small chip out of the stock.

Called FedEx and they forwarded me to an adjuster, who initially expressed little interested in helping me...

Until I mentioned several time in our conversation their "Neglence, the inherrent danger of shooting a firearm they damaged in transport, my potential injuries resulting from their neglecence, as a result of thier Neglegence in paying for proper repairs/replacement."

About a week later, a $500.00 check showed up in the mail.

I like the small claims court idea, and definitely encourage you to persue it, but a call worked for me.

lb404

Have you contacted whatever govt official it is that overseas insurance in your state?

Hey guys, I have the same story that originates 14Jan05 and we're still trying to get it resolved. FedEx makes appointments to pick up the 600 Mohawk that mysterously got the stock broke in two. It also was insured but they are stalling hoping to dodge the bullet. This is the email I recieved from the buyer that also happens to be the receiving FFL.

Good Morning olcrip
I am having a lot of trouble get the problem with this damaged rifle corrected. FEDEX is now telling me that you need to contact them so they can issue a call tag to schedule a pickup and I cannot just drop it off at the terminal. I have been deal with these folks with no cooperation and a different story each time. Here is the return tracking number and claim number if you need it.
Return xxxxxxxxxxxxx674
Claim - xxxxxxxxx35
Your tracking number - xxxxxxxxxxxxx28160
Keep me informed on how you make out.
Thanks
xxxxx xxxxx
Hagerstown, MD 21740

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
lb404

Have you contacted whatever govt official it is that overseas insurance in your state?

That would be the Oklahoma State Insurance Commissioner and that office has ZERO oversight in this case.

quote:

If the Postal Service couldn't resolve your complaint to your satisfaction, then you weren't complaining to the right people.

Ah yes, it is my fault for not wading through endless crap to rattle the cage of just the right person. Sounds like they have an excellent customer service set up.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:

quote:

If the Postal Service couldn't resolve your complaint to your satisfaction, then you weren't complaining to the right people.

Ah yes, it is my fault for not wading through endless crap to rattle the cage of just the right person. Sounds like they have an excellent customer service set up.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but you gave up too easily and too quickly. Don't know what else to tell you, but to condemn the Postal Service based on a single experience is rather myopic and silly.

It's really tough, I know. You ask for the Postal facility manager or postmaster's office and speak with them. It's what adults do -- talk to each other.

quote:

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but you gave up too easily and too quickly. Don't know what else to tell you, but to condemn the Postal Service based on a single experience is rather myopic and silly.

It's really tough, I know. You ask for the Postal facility manager or postmaster's office and speak with them. It's what adults do -- talk to each other.

I see... now I am not an adult. Any more ad hominem attempts to bolster your argument?

You seem convinced that all it takes is enough pressure for long enough on just the right people. I'm saying, if that is what it takes to get customer service, that is, by definition, a very poor service system.

Moreover, you have no idea how many people I talked to or how much time I spent doing so. You seem to be incapable of acknowleding that USPS is capable of being as slippery as UPS or Fedex in some circumstances.

Besides, why give USPS a second chance when my luck elsewhere has been perfect? Using USPS again would be far the sillier.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:

quote:

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but you gave up too easily and too quickly. Don't know what else to tell you, but to condemn the Postal Service based on a single experience is rather myopic and silly.

It's really tough, I know. You ask for the Postal facility manager or postmaster's office and speak with them. It's what adults do -- talk to each other.

I see... now I am not an adult. Any more ad hominem attempts to bolster your argument?

You seem convinced that all it takes is enough pressure for long enough on just the right people. I'm saying, if that is what it takes to get customer service, that is, by definition, a very poor service system.

Moreover, you have no idea how many people I talked to or how much time I spent doing so. You seem to be incapable of acknowleding that USPS is capable of being as slippery as UPS or Fedex in some circumstances.

Besides, why give USPS a second chance when my luck elsewhere has been perfect? Using USPS again would be far the sillier.

Uh, never claimed the Postal Service was incapable of making a mistake, but to write them off based on a single experience is just stupid. And I have serious doubts about your insurance claim story.

The motto in your house seems to be "Intolerance -- it's what's for dinner!"

Doubt my claim if you will - whatever makes you feel better about your position. I think the intolerance title goes to you - no one is allowed to have a different recommendation than what you've experienced or decided. Mine was different, and that appears not to sit with you. You seem to have a patholological need to defend USPS - whatever blows your skirt up...

Good luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
Doubt my claim if you will - whatever makes you feel better about your position. I think the intolerance title goes to you - no one is allowed to have a different recommendation than what you've experienced or decided. Mine was different, and that appears not to sit with you. You seem to have a patholological need to defend USPS - whatever blows your skirt up...

Good luck to you.

I don't have any need to defend the USPS. I've used every current means of shipping a firearm at one time or another, but to write off an outfit based on ONE EXPERIENCE ALONE is unrealistic and unfair. Wouldn't you tend to agree?

I'm very sorry that you can't seem to grasp that. And I'm also sorry that you can't resolve adult problems.

If someone shits in my yard, they will not be invited back - GET IT? What part of this is hard for you to understand?

I presume then that you would extend this same advice to LB404 - he should just smile and not form an unfavorable opinion of Fedex. After all, it was just ONE experience, how unreasonable would he be for doing so?

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
If someone shits in my yard, they will not be invited back - GET IT? What part of this is hard for you to understand?

What part of forming a blanket opinion based on ONE experience seems reasonable and proper?

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
I presume then that you would extend this same advice to LB404 - he should just smile and not form an unfavorable opinion of Fedex. After all, it was just ONE experience, how unreasonable would he be for doing so?

How many times and how many years has he used Federal Express?

Depends on the cost of the experience (time, $, and aggravation) and the availability of comparable alternatives.

You seems to hate UPS fairly vehemently. Why so? Did you wait until you had a couple dozen bad experiences before your switched to USPS? Or, after one particularly bad experience, did you just drive the extra block down to the PO to give them a try?

BTW, I use the PO for many things gun-related items still, just not guns.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
Depends on the cost of the experience (time, $, and aggravation) and the availability of comparable alternatives.

You seems to hate UPS fairly vehemently. Why so? Did you wait until you had a couple dozen bad experiences before your switched to USPS? Or, after one particularly bad experience, did you just drive the extra block down to the PO to give them a try?

BTW, I use the PO for many things gun-related items still, just not guns.

I dealt with UPS exclusively for about ten years and became more and more dissatisfied. I'm still not fully free of using them, since just about every manufacturer and gunsmith uses them for returning items. They seem to be rather apathetic in regards to customer complaints and concerns.

Federal Express gets all of my handgun and ammunition shipment business. I haven't had any problems with them, but I haven't been overly impressed either. As I posted earlier, I've heard from other credible people, including a personal friend, that they tend to be rather chickenshit about paying what would otherwise be considered legitimate insurance claims. Thankfully I haven't had to use Federal Express to ship any highly valuable items.

Effective complaining is an art. It's negotiation-- like many things in life. Of COURSE they "rejected your claim". All insurance companies are likely to do that the first time. They're testing your resolve.

Go up the ladder, keep raising a stink, spend a few more hours on the phone. (It may be presumptious of me to assume you have not fully explored this option.)

Then consider suing. If you don't have time for the phone calls, you don't have time for the suit.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
Depends on the cost of the experience (time, $, and aggravation) and the availability of comparable alternatives.

You seems to hate UPS fairly vehemently. Why so? Did you wait until you had a couple dozen bad experiences before your switched to USPS? Or, after one particularly bad experience, did you just drive the extra block down to the PO to give them a try?

BTW, I use the PO for many things gun-related items still, just not guns.

9.3, you obviously haven't been a close study of JSG's post. Keep in mind that this is the same "guy" that thinks that Sako sent him a rifle with a broken stock. Even though the rifle had been shipped, he is absolutly sure(with no evidence mind you) that the gun was broken before it ever shipped. He can not even entertain the thought that the gun may have been damaged in transit. I guess you see where I'm going here. Some people just like to make their points heard at any cost. Take him with a grain of salt.