Cenario:

you are going on an extended wilderness trek across Alaska with you team of sled dogs.
You will be required to hunt for meat(200kg per day)EVERY day to feed the appetite of your working dogs.
Your challenge is to build a rifle for this task. It must be able to take care of a Grizzly after you or your dogs,as well as take shots at game out to 500yds to secure that meat essential to the daily survival of your dogs and in turn your own survival. You may have to carry this rig in your hands for a number of miles through snow before you find your quary.

What components would you use in your build? (action,barrel,stock, calibre,mounts,scope)
You can include recoil reducers,muzzle breaks,carbon barrels,etc.pretty much what is available on the market to your advantage.
You will be able to take spares with you like a scope,and a spare extractor.
However remember If you have a Rem 700, and the bolt handle falls off,your stuffed. So keep those sort of things in mind.

wow, that's a lot of meat.

I'd probably go with something like an Echols Legend but built with the pre-64 winnie. I'd have a leupold fixed scope in quick detach rings, probably a 6x since you are thinking it possible to take 500 yard shots (realistically most people off the internet can't, not saying you can't, but most can't, and I know it is beyond my skill).

I'd have a second scope in rings sighted in for backup, I'd have good peep/ring rear sight with front bead, maybe fiber optic. I'd have it chambered in 338 win mag and aside from the action might go stainless on the rest of it. Get a good hot blue on the action itself. barrel would be standard 24" with no brake.

However, this is one of the few scenarios where I would go stainless/synthetic. I love guns as much for their beauty as for hunting with them so normally would answer wood and blue, but this is a special circumstance.

Red

M2 Browning .50 cal. no question about it! How am I going to carry it you ask? Well, its my dream, so I’m going to have Pam Anderson and Elle McPhereson as my gun bearers!

Without question, a Sig Sauer 550/551:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

It would meet all of your goals, to also include the ability to carry a supply of ammunition. It is far more reliable and durable than anything going. It is precision accurate on distance shots and is also quick to aim and put out a volume of led in close quarter situations.

If anyone of you have been trained and handled one, you know the deal w/ this awesome rig. I've never seen anything as fast and accurate to level on a target inside 30yds. For those who are unfamiliar w/ the speed of this thing, make a circle w/ your thumb and index finger. As fast as you can, raise that circle onto a man sized target. As quick as you can do that you have already put a round center mass. I can put more holes and lead through that bear point blank than most realize possible before you could get one shot off w/ a traditional bolt gun.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
Without question, a Sig Sauer 550/551:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

It would meet all of your goals, to also include the ability to carry a supply of ammunition. It is far more reliable and durable than anything going. It is precision accurate on distance shots and is also quick to aim and put out a volume of led in close quarter situations.

If anyone of you have been trained and handled one, you know the deal w/ this awesome rig. I've never seen anything as fast and accurate to level on a target inside 30yds. For those who are unfamiliar w/ the speed of this thing, make a circle w/ your thumb and index finger. As fast as you can, raise that circle onto a man sized target. As quick as you can do that you have already put a round center mass. I can put more holes and lead through that bear point blank than most realize possible before you could get one shot off w/ a traditional bolt gun.

Gary

Gary,

And exactly what do you think those 5.56mm bullets are going to do to Mr. Grizzly Bear other than really piss him off?

Many years ago I saw 20 rounds from a 5.56mm fired into a water buffalo from about 40 yards. They didn’t even break his stride, let alone stop him. They were all tracers and you could actually see some of them bounce/ricochet off his head and neck area. It took a real long burst from a 7.62mm M60 to drop him, and even then he laid there snorting and kicking around for quite awhile before he assumed the permanent prone position.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Cenario:

you are going on an extended wilderness trek across Alaska with you team of sled dogs.
You will be required to hunt for meat(200kg per day)EVERY day to feed the appetite of your working dogs.
Your challenge is to build a rifle for this task. It must be able to take care of a Grizzly after you or your dogs,as well as take shots at game out to 500yds to secure that meat essential to the daily survival of your dogs and in turn your own survival. You may have to carry this rig in your hands for a number of miles through snow before you find your quary.

What components would you use in your build? (action,barrel,stock, calibre,mounts,scope)
You can include recoil reducers,muzzle breaks,carbon barrels,etc.pretty much what is available on the market to your advantage.
You will be able to take spares with you like a scope,and a spare extractor.
However remember If you have a Rem 700, and the bolt handle falls off,your stuffed. So keep those sort of things in mind.

Good God man how many blinking dogs do you have on this team, 40? My experience is "about" 10 dogs on a team. Most dogs (even) when worked hard will "generally" be happy with < 2.5kg. per day. And that would about 10% of an average dogs weight. Have you ever tried to eat 10% of your body weight? Though I must admit a heavly worked sled dog can come close.

Oh, sorry to pee on you parade but sled dogs are mostly fed frozen fish as it gives them the nutrients and oils they need to work hard in the cold in a low bulk/weight (and compact) form, also you should invision low poop output. Can you imagine what a dog with the trots in the middle of the team would be like?

I'd pick a old beat up 30-06 that I've used forever (I don't own a 30-06, never have, so it ain't gonna be my gun) with a Weaver K4 (or iron sights) and 180 gr. Hornady interlocks. Oh, I can't shoot much past 200yds. so I'd lie like everyone else does to complete those 500 yard shots.

And if you think 180 gr. is too light for grizzly your not a good enough shot and your butt shouldn't be out in a situation like this, 'cause your gonna die dude!

Make won't matter 'cause you've been using it so long you know it won't break. It's always the new shit that breaks, think tried and true here :-) AND you've been packin it around so long your quite comfortable with it's weight, whatever it weighs.

So, probably not the answer you expected, but I had fun answering your question ;-)

BTW, Not all of this answer was in jest!

Roi

P.S. The spare(s) are a second rifle pretty much like the first wrapped in oil cloth in the sled.

What part of Alaska has the Water Buffalo?

As far as thin skinned bear, I surely wouldn't go after them w/ a single shot 5.56, but I'm sure a magazine full of AP would go clean thru the bear and the car he's driving in while you're resting from lugging that .50cal before you start working on thawing it out so it will function. Crap!! You have to wait for the grunt to bring up your ammo!!

Second thought, I wouldn't shoot the water buffalo at all, but would help you harness it up so it can drag that .50cal for you. Then you would be free to lug your ammo, tools and spare parts.

Gary

Oh Rick, I forgot to mention...your gun bearers can ride w/ me.

Gary

My pick would be a Krag rifle, G&H side mount with Lyman Alaskan scope, Lyman 48 receiver sight with Remington 220gr Core-Lokt, same outfit I started out with forty years ago.
The rifle and five boxes of ammo cost me $50 in a pawn shop on Larimer Street, Denver in the fall of 1966.

quote:

Originally posted by 510wells:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Cenario:

you are going on an extended wilderness trek across Alaska with you team of sled dogs.
You will be required to hunt for meat(200kg per day)EVERY day to feed the appetite of your working dogs.
Your challenge is to build a rifle for this task. It must be able to take care of a Grizzly after you or your dogs,as well as take shots at game out to 500yds to secure that meat essential to the daily survival of your dogs and in turn your own survival. You may have to carry this rig in your hands for a number of miles through snow before you find your quary.

What components would you use in your build? (action,barrel,stock, calibre,mounts,scope)
You can include recoil reducers,muzzle breaks,carbon barrels,etc.pretty much what is available on the market to your advantage.
You will be able to take spares with you like a scope,and a spare extractor.
However remember If you have a Rem 700, and the bolt handle falls off,your stuffed. So keep those sort of things in mind.

Good God man how many blinking dogs do you have on this team, 40? My experience is "about" 10 dogs on a team. Most dogs (even) when worked hard will "generally" be happy with < 2.5kg. per day. And that would about 10% of an average dogs weight. Have you ever tried to eat 10% of your body weight? Though I must admit a heavly worked sled dog can come close.

Oh, sorry to pee on you parade but sled dogs are mostly fed frozen fish as it gives them the nutrients and oils they need to work hard in the cold in a low bulk/weight (and compact) form, also you should invision low poop output. Can you imagine what a dog with the trots in the middle of the team would be like?

I'd pick a old beat up 30-06 that I've used forever (I don't own a 30-06, never have, so it ain't gonna be my gun) with a Weaver K4 (or iron sights) and 180 gr. Hornady interlocks. Oh, I can't shoot much past 200yds. so I'd lie like everyone else does to complete those 500 yard shots.

And if you think 180 gr. is too light for grizzly your not a good enough shot and your butt shouldn't be out in a situation like this, 'cause your gonna die dude!

Make won't matter 'cause you've been using it so long you know it won't break. It's always the new shit that breaks, think tried and true here :-) AND you've been packin it around so long your quite comfortable with it's weight, whatever it weighs.

So, probably not the answer you expected, but I had fun answering your question ;-)

BTW, Not all of this answer was in jest!

Roi

P.S. The spare(s) are a second rifle pretty much like the first wrapped in oil cloth in the sled.

I like 510wells approach. I discern some wisdom here. This idea that one must have a $9000.00 Echol's Legend to so much as go to work in the morning is just utter bullshit. [Sorry to offend.] Hell, has anything other than a Legend ever killed a dangerous game animal in the history of the world? Apparently not, to read some of the recent posting here.

For a meat and potatoes rifle I have always liked the HVA 1640 series. A .30-06 in the model 4100 lightweight, having a barrel length of 20.5" [if memory serves] is a practical and very shootable rifle. But of course, it costs nowhere near $9,000.00 and if you should encounter a grizz and he learns you ain't packing an Echols Legend, then you're probably a dead man, [regardless of how many times you shoot him in the vitals since, as previously stated the threshold financial outlay before a grizzly bear or any dangerous game animal will die, is $9,000.00].

Jordan

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
What part of Alaska has the Water Buffalo?

As far as thin skinned bear, I surely wouldn't go after them w/ a single shot 5.56, but I'm sure a magazine full of AP would go clean thru the bear and the car he's driving in while you're resting from lugging that .50cal before you start working on thawing it out so it will function. Crap!! You have to wait for the grunt to bring up your ammo!!

Second thought, I wouldn't shoot the water buffalo at all, but would help you harness it up so it can drag that .50cal for you. Then you would be free to lug your ammo, tools and spare parts.

Gary

You’ve been reading Soldier of Fortune way too much!

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
What part of Alaska has the Water Buffalo?

As far as thin skinned bear, I surely wouldn't go after them w/ a single shot 5.56, but I'm sure a magazine full of AP would go clean thru the bear and the car he's driving in while you're resting from lugging that .50cal before you start working on thawing it out so it will function. Crap!! You have to wait for the grunt to bring up your ammo!!

Second thought, I wouldn't shoot the water buffalo at all, but would help you harness it up so it can drag that .50cal for you. Then you would be free to lug your ammo, tools and spare parts.

Gary

Well, since we’re “pretending†I decided that my M2 only weighs six pounds and doesn’t recoil!

And anyway, I’ll be busy “Geeing†and “Hawing†my dog team over to the “pretend†four star hotel I decided to conjure up for my gun-bearers and me.

.340 weatherby and lots of jerky you can eat he dogs as they fall.

[/QUOTE]
For a meat and potatoes rifle I have always liked the HVA 1640 series. A .30-06 in the model 4100 lightweight, having a barrel length of 20.5" [if memory serves] is a practical and very shootable rifle. But of course, it costs nowhere near $9,000.00 and if you should encounter a grizz and he learns you ain't packing an Echols Legend, then you're probably a dead man, [regardless of how many times you shoot him in the vitals since, as previously stated the threshold financial outlay before a grizzly bear or any dangerous game animal will die, is $9,000.00].

Jordan[/QUOTE]

FN/FAL or a HKG3 either should work fine.

Actually I have a rifle built (or "Customized") by Les Womack for more or less that purpose. It's an 03 with original stock. Barrel cut to 16" along with handguard and stock. New Redfield sourdough front sight of proper height. Bolt lowered for scope and 2 1/2x Lyman Alaskan mounted in G&H side mount. Quite accurate and with 220gr Noslers I would feel well equipped. Oh the trap in butt contained a polaroid developer plastic tube with wooden matches and a fairly good compass has been inlet into left side of buttstock. Original web military sling. Somebody had the same idea and put into reality. Incidentally it also has one of the nicest Winchester type case hardened 3 position safties installed I've ever seen.

200 kg/day? 440 lbs/day? Yeah right. That would be two elk per day. Ridiculous.

Brent

quote:

For a meat and potatoes rifle I have always liked the HVA 1640 series. A .30-06 in the model 4100 lightweight, having a barrel length of 20.5" [if memory serves] is a practical and very shootable rifle.

I have that EXACT rifle, set up with a Williams aperature sight. It was my daily carry gun for several years in SE Alaska, before moving stateside. Loaded with 200 Partitions, was very comforting. Yes, 20 1/2" barrel.

I'd go with a pre-64 Model 70 action with a non-stainless 22" Kreiger barrel chambered in 30-06, EAW open sights (fiberoptic front bead and fixed, non-folding rear), Leupold QR detachable mounts, a Leupold 4X scope, Half-Moon hex-head screws, and a pillar-bedded McMillan/Echols stock.

Except of the open sights, all metal would be hard-chromed, then coated with black Teflon, and the stock would wear McMillan's olive green paint and Pachmayr's regular 'Old English' pad in brown, not the 'Decelerator', and I'd want a set of two-screw sling swivel bases set into the stock and securely screwed to threaded steel anchors set into the stock.

I'd zero the scope for 200 yds. with 180 gr. Nosler Partitions @ 2700 fps. or better, and zero the open sights for 100 yds. dead-on.

AD

Boy, there are sure some wild and wonderful replies here, especially from guys whose actual wilderness experience is obviously zilch. I have lived in north-western B.C. hard by the Alaska border, alone in the bush, for three month stretches and was just up there last month. Most of what has been said here just ain't very realistic, IMHO.

First of all, the ONLY life-saving shot you will usually get at any bear is the first one, so, a cartridge/bullet combo that will drop him with one hit is kinda important. The design of the rifle and your familiarity with it determine just how fast and accurate you will be, not it's action type. The other factor is your own bush experience, I have seen guys who talked "bush" and climbed in the Sierra Nevadas go absolutely apeshit when suddenly confronted with a Grizzly in the Kootenays.

So, I would pick an Echol's Legend, with custom bases, good irons and Burgess rings in .338 Win. as my first choice and I would have two Leupy FX-4s, plus a "care package" of pre-fitted parts with me. I would use 250 NP Gold Molyfree slugs in Win. brass, with Win. Mag. primers over RE-22 and I would carry the rifle in a "Kifaru" gunbearer attached to whatever pack I was carrying my emergency survival kit in.

If, I could not afford this, I would use a P-64, a Browning Safari FN-LE, an FN sporter, a Brno ZG-47, or a Husqvarna Mod. 1950/51, in cals. .30-06, .338-06, .35 Whelen, 9.3x62 or .338 Win. Mag., all with accessories and loads approximating the Echol's "dream gun". I actually have most of these now and others in progress and feel comfortable in the wilderness with any of them, especially re-stocked with a good synthetic, tuned and PRACTICED WITH and that is NOT for small group shooting.

Kutenay,

Lighten up, this is a fantasy trek w/ all the elk and water buffalo you can shake a stick at. Anyway, it just so happens that one of Rick's gun bearers, Ms. McPhereson, carries the exact same rifle you described. She's busy w/ Rick at the moment and I'm sure she'd let you borrow it. Also, Rick's hotel is running a special...all you can eat elk for $4.99. They also offer free kennel service for your dog team and free shuttle transport across Alaska. I chose this option because I found it difficult to get my sled team thru all that British Columbia bush country above the North Slope. I thought about taking them thru the Sierra Nevada section of Alaska to avoid this, but it is filled w/ flatlander running around going apeshit!!! I'd avoid going that way if I were you.

Gary

“Boy, there are sure some wild and wonderful replies here, especially from guys whose actual wilderness experience is obviously zilch. I have lived in north-western B.C. hard by the Alaska border, alone in the bush, for three month stretches and was just up there last month. Most of what has been said here just ain't very realistic, IMHO†[Quote from kutenay]

kutenay,

When did “realistic†become a criteria for anyone posting on AR???

okay.. in this case, the ammo weight is a concern...

i'll do what the eskimos do..

ruger mini 14 ranch rifle with sights and aim point.. and a TC iron sighted for back up

in 223, and about 2000 rounds (200 solids, rest softs)

jeffe

Jeffe, You are going to shoot 440 lbs of game per day out to 500 yds and drop charging grizzlies all with a Mini 14??? Well, it's as good as any fairtale I suppose.

I can't believe the .45-70 Marlin hasn't debuted here yet.

Brent

A book that's not well known tells the story of a life as you outlined.



Money used a bolt action Winchester in 30-06. I would do the same but add a peep receiver sight. No scope.

Some basic tools would be carried to fix things. This is no place for a target rifle. The field stripable bolt on the M70's would be appreciated. I would check this rifle out myself.

I did the movie “White Fang†in Haines, Alaska in the early 1990’s...and was there for almost 10 months. During the winter portion of filming I worked with the dog sled teams (we had four teams) every day and I don’t recall them ever even coming close to consuming 500 pounds of food in one day! In fact the guy made it a point to not over feed them so they would be more anxious to pull. You could smell those dogs (and the owner!) for miles!

The owner of the dogs (a guy that won the IDIDAROD race once) feed them fish...not red meat.

In the summer filming we had local Alaskan hunters that worked as security because we filmed in some areas that had allot of bears. Most of them carried Winchester 70’s...and I remember one guy that had a BRNO, and another guy carried a combo of a Winchester 12 ga pump shotgun with slugs, and a S&W 44 mag.

Several of the bush pilots we used carried Marlin 444 lever action’s.

98 mauser 8x57 issue carbine, with spare complete bolt, bolt-stop, spring and ejector and enough ammo to get by.

Different time and region, but I recall reading that the Lewis and Clark expedition required to kill enough red meat to feed each person 9 to 11 pounds per day and even then they were starving. The meat was too lean. When they had access to fish, it was superior because of the high fat content and they could support themselves w/ far smaller portions.

Gary

By the whey, you speeled scenario rong.

Brent,
Sure enough... i figure with the mag, i could empty my mini into the bear, from the inside...

remember, until the 80's, the record kodiak was killed by a little girl with a 22 short, one shot, point blank....

of course, when faced with a kodiak with a 223, you have ONE choice on shot placement.


500 yards? I have and have hit mansized paper targets at 400m with an ar.. besides, humming bullets downrange at that range is little more than hail mary from a field position, on the back of a dog sled

LOL

jeffe

Jeffe, We all know about the record grizzly (not Kodiak though) and the little girl (or old woman) and the .22 short (never ever a long rifle or .22 mag). That's so old it's gospel.

But I like your plan a whole lot better. Still, I'd feel relatively safe as a caribou at 500 yds if you are using a mini 14.... You may hit one or two, but not 440 lbs of meat per day.

But heck, this whole thing is a joke so why not!

Rattle on!

Brent

Kutenay made a valid point that seems to indicate that by his experience you may only have time to get one round off into the charging bear in this scenario. Therefore, I assume he is indicating you would only get one 5.56 round into this bear. Well, this is the point I'm making w/ the Sig 550/551 and why it would actually have an advantage to a bolt gun in a wilderness survival situation.

I've taken him up on this challenge. On a state of the art cumputer controlled law enforcement training facility. Combat low light course w/ an ambush target to suddenly appear and programed to give you a 3-second window. Rifle at ready. At the end of three seconds, 10 rounds struck center mass of a man sized target.

I can shoot a bolt gun pretty quick, but cannot get reliably more than one round into the target. W/ a magnum handgun, I can easily get two.

So fantasy aside, If I found myself alone in this scenerio having to travel a great distance w/ my dog team and had to rely on one rifle to cover the wide range of tasks given. I'd say:

1) This particular Sig has been thoroughly tested and proven to outlast and out perform just about anything out there in such harsh conditions.
2) In the time I can reasonably expect to get one round off w/ a bolt gun, I know I can accurately get approx. 10 rounds off w/ the Sig. (I think this would be of great value if facing multiple targets).
3) This Sig is equiped w/ 3 permanently attached sight systems that can be flipped and rotated in seconds. Combat Sights for close quarter, Night Sights and Precision Sights to accurately make long distance shots as required (this rifle is capable of bolt rifle accuracy).
4) This Sig and all ammo needed would be light and easy to carry.

This is just my thoughts based on my training and experience, and yes I've been charged by bear, one of which was point blank in a thicket and was dropped w/ a bullet thru the skull and brain.

Gary

The Sig is a good gun but before you think it adequate for that environment please read about soldiers who suffered combat in cold environments. Endless accounts of guys at the Ardennes pissing on their Garands to thaw the frost jamming the actions. A semi is great IF you train in cold weather with it. A bolt gun will require much less training to acheive the same level of reliability. But if you are determined to use a battle rifle, I would at least use one in .308.

Also, FWIW if you can only get 1 round off in a bolt gun for each 10 aimed shots in a semi then you are sorely lacking in training/practice with a bolt gun.

Harry,
i think i can get 4 off in a bolt gun in 10-12.... that is, if i am standing right next to you!!!!

jeffe

Hello the campfire:
The old timers are the ones to look at. I would say a light weight rifle., maybe a lever action in something less than 30 cal and a large bore handgun for bears. Many men have starved to death in the north because the larger game is not around. The wolves amd wildcats live off mice and voles. The game has to be there before you can shoot it. Several years ago a young man tried to live in frozen alaska over the winter planning to hunt for food. He was found dead of starvation.
Feed for dogs and men has to be carried on the sled.
Go back and read Jack London and other who were there. It is not called the hungry season form no reason.
Judge Sharpe

[quote]This is just my thoughts based on my training and experience, and yes I've been charged by bear, one of which was point blank in a thicket and was dropped w/ a bullet thru the skull and brain.[quote from GaryVA)

Hey, Gary...I’ve been to the Vermont Teddy Bear factory, and I told them they should use tougher material for the heads!

I was under the impression Griz hibernated. Gimme a Mod 94. I'd shoot the dogs and have a quiet peaceful journey.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Harry,
i think i can get 4 off in a bolt gun in 10-12.... that is, if i am standing right next to you!!!!

jeffe

Yes, and I can get two aimed and one at the sky-hook...

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
I was under the impression Griz hibernated.

Geez, Dan...if you’re gonna get “technical†that will ruin the whole pretend fantasy!

Lapua arctic warfare sniper rifle in 338 Lapua swarovsky glass or kahless