quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The Sig is a good gun but before you think it adequate for that environment please read about soldiers who suffered combat in cold environments....

Also, FWIW if you can only get 1 round off in a bolt gun for each 10 aimed shots in a semi then you are sorely lacking in training/practice with a bolt gun.

tiggergate, its been thoroughly tested frozen, in mud, salt water, filled w/ sand, etc., look at the link I posted above. It has semi, 3-burst and full. I was referring to full auto. You'll get off more than 10 rounds, that's how many hit center mass.

You'd be hard pressed to find too many people who can take a bolt rifle at port arms w/ safety catch engaged, and when a target presents itself and you only have 3-seconds, to get off more than one round into the target.

When I was playing around w/ that Cape Buffalo 3-step exercise, I could get 3 into the targets under 9 seconds...but not everytime. I can get one into the target in about 2 seconds but I can't recover from the recoil and get the second bullet into the target before 3-seconds time expires. You are way faster than me!

Rick,

Yeah, that white stuffing flies all over the place...pretty cool! The hardest part is getting someone to shake that teddy bear and growl while you take the shot.

Gary

I've changed my mind, my daughter just reminded me that I would only need a bull whip, a pick-axe and a nickel plated Colt SAA w/ ivory grips stuck in my waist belt. She is right, if it is good enough for Yukon Cornelius in the Northpole, it would be good enough for me. Everybody knows that the "Bumbles" up there are bigger than any of the water buffalos, elk and hibernating stuffed Vermont teddy bears you'd encounter on this Alaskan trek. Well, save for the flatlanders running apeshit in the Sierra Nevada section, but we're going to stear clear of that place!

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The Sig is a good gun but before you think it adequate for that environment please read about soldiers who suffered combat in cold environments....

Also, FWIW if you can only get 1 round off in a bolt gun for each 10 aimed shots in a semi then you are sorely lacking in training/practice with a bolt gun.

tiggergate, its been thoroughly tested frozen, in mud, salt water, filled w/ sand, etc., look at the link I posted above. It has semi, 3-burst and full. I was referring to full auto. You'll get off more than 10 rounds, that's how many hit center mass.

You'd be hard pressed to find too many people who can take a bolt rifle at port arms w/ safety catch engaged, and when a target presents itself and you only have 3-seconds, to get off more than one round into the target.

When I was playing around w/ that Cape Buffalo 3-step exercise, I could get 3 into the targets under 9 seconds...but not everytime. I can get one into the target in about 2 seconds but I can't recover from the recoil and get the second bullet into the target before 3-seconds time expires. You are way faster than me!

Rick,

Yeah, that white stuffing flies all over the place...pretty cool! The hardest part is getting someone to shake that teddy bear and growl while you take the shot.

Gary

I guess I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. It's that man that needs drilling, not the rifle. I'm sure even those those old Garands would give adequate service witht he right cold weather procedures. That said, I think I could free up a frozen bolt gun quicker than you could free up an accidentally frozen Sig.

quote:

I'd shoot the dogs and have a quiet peaceful journey.

That's what Amundsen did on the way back from the South Pole... smart guy.

WEll first answer was if the isutation were really possible and I had to look at it from work, but since we're all thinking better now.

screw the gun, I'm taking a couple bearers with me like Rick, Angelina Jolie and Elizabeth Hurley. I'll take oysters, chocolate and wine. Hell, if I have to hunt for the meat to ensure the prolonging of the trip with the bearers I'll just take my 1917 Rem. in 35 Whelen AI with the 6x weaver, put some Renessaince Wax on the metal, Some 250g North Forks, 26" barrel, we'd be able to feed the dogs.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
...However remember If you have a Rem 700, and the bolt handle falls off,your stuffed. So keep those sort of things in mind.

Got some bad news for you Woodjack, the Bolt Handles are falling off the M70s now days.

What would you take?

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
Boy, there are sure some wild and wonderful replies here, especially from guys whose actual wilderness experience is obviously zilch. I have lived in north-western B.C. hard by the Alaska border, alone in the bush, for three month stretches and was just up there last month. Most of what has been said here just ain't very realistic, IMHO.

First of all, the ONLY life-saving shot you will usually get at any bear is the first one, so, a cartridge/bullet combo that will drop him with one hit is kinda important. The design of the rifle and your familiarity with it determine just how fast and accurate you will be, not it's action type. The other factor is your own bush experience, I have seen guys who talked "bush" and climbed in the Sierra Nevadas go absolutely apeshit when suddenly confronted with a Grizzly in the Kootenays.

So, I would pick an Echol's Legend, with custom bases, good irons and Burgess rings in .338 Win. as my first choice and I would have two Leupy FX-4s, plus a "care package" of pre-fitted parts with me. I would use 250 NP Gold Molyfree slugs in Win. brass, with Win. Mag. primers over RE-22 and I would carry the rifle in a "Kifaru" gunbearer attached to whatever pack I was carrying my emergency survival kit in.

If, I could not afford this, I would use a P-64, a Browning Safari FN-LE, an FN sporter, a Brno ZG-47, or a Husqvarna Mod. 1950/51, in cals. .30-06, .338-06, .35 Whelen, 9.3x62 or .338 Win. Mag., all with accessories and loads approximating the Echol's "dream gun". I actually have most of these now and others in progress and feel comfortable in the wilderness with any of them, especially re-stocked with a good synthetic, tuned and PRACTICED WITH and that is NOT for small group shooting.

I believe I'd just follow the above poster from a mile or so back. I could tell where he is because I could hear him talking about seeing Grizzlies around every corner. And since I believe(?) he sees them all the time, that would obviously keep all the Griz occupied with being where he can see them.

Since he isn't interested in accuracy, I'd just track down and kill all the critters he "wounds" and probably end up gaining weight on the trip. Once he wounds them, the good old 6" S&S 357Mag with about any bullet placed in their eye or ear should finish them off, but I'll "probably be" inside the 500yd distance.

Might take one dog along to help sniff out Rick's "Team" and share with them all the previously wounded game I find along the way. In return, I'd imagine some of those fine Gun Bearers would probably want to keep me warm at night.

Hey, HC, I see that you are exhibiting your ignorance again....the last two Grizzlies I saw were in mid-June, one of them a couple of miles below Allen Day's buddy Bob Fontana's main camp just below the Kananaskis Pass on the Elk Valley Road and the other in a field about 10 miles north of Hixon, B.C. Where and when have you ever seen ONE Grizzly, you poser?

Oh, you never did tell us about the ...charging Elephants.....

My Dad's old Winchester M70 in '06, no question about it. When the world comes to an end, that gun will still shoot 220gr. Partitions into 1.5MOA like it's the most natural thing in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeyB:
My Dad's old Winchester M70 in '06, no question about it. When the world comes to an end, that gun will still shoot 220gr. Partitions into 1.5MOA like it's the most natural thing in the world.

Mickey,

Wow, reading that post makes me wish I had my dad's old hunting rifle or my grandad's old Colt revolver. That has struck a chord.

Hope one day a grandson of yours holds that same rifle and repeats your exact words.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
WEll first answer was if the isutation were really possible and I had to look at it from work, but since we're all thinking better now.

screw the gun, I'm taking a couple bearers with me like Rick, Angelina Jolie and Elizabeth Hurley. I'll take oysters, chocolate and wine. Hell, if I have to hunt for the meat to ensure the prolonging of the trip with the bearers I'll just take my 1917 Rem. in 35 Whelen AI with the 6x weaver, put some Renessaince Wax on the metal, Some 250g North Forks, 26" barrel, we'd be able to feed the dogs.

Red

You got it Red! We’ll meet up and swap bearers after a few weeks!

I want to do it in the summer time though so their wardrobe will be a bit more appropriate.

First of all if it was spring, summer, or fall, I wouldn't have ANY dogs with me to feed (and constantly break up fights between). If it was winter, MAYBE. (Depends on the kind of country I'd be traversing). If you have snowshoes and no schedule to keep, you can go a long way in even the coldest winter without a dog team.


I'd be sure and have a hand line (or a cheap telescoping fishing rig IF I was using dogs), together with a small hand-axe for chopping holes in the ice, and a couple of pocket flint & steel rigs for starting fires. A good knife would be indispensible, as would a couple of good compasses & waterproofed maps if available.

For a rifle, I'd probably have the same rig I used to have for those kinds of trips in far Northern Alberta, Saskatchewan, and NW Yukon Territory. That was a Savage M219 single shot break-action, with 3 interchangeable barrels, in a fitted canvas sack...my barrels were and still would be .30-30, a scoped .22 Hornet, and a .410 shotgun. I'd also carry a small paperback survival manual just as a reassuring reference in those situations where I might query my own memory of how to handle things.

Nice to see that kutenay has the same charm here as 24hour. No wonder those Canadian women love us Yanks.....................

Rick, well being from the Windy State there are things I don't know about bears. The Blacks down here don't hibernate of course, especially with all the snow birds to munch on that time of year. So, while I was speculating up an answer I figured to throw that little factoid out into the fire. Then shoot the dogs so all the yappin' wouldn't wake up the light sleepers.

Ketchikan, maybe you need to get to know Hot Core a little better and see just how many times this whacko gratuitously attacks other posters, me included, before you are quite so ready to make remarks such as the above. I don't really give a rat's ass what you think of me, but, you will soon find out about HC, just visit more often and see for yourself.

As to Canadian women and Yanks, what bullshit, it's American women who lust after we manly, virile Canucks and we frequently have to fight them off in droves as we owe our allegiance to our own beautiful, hot, sexy ladies who simply eclipse any other females on Earth! So, eat your heart out, Canadian Beaver is not for you..............

Looks like we are fast approaching a “SINario“ here!

I’m still trying to figure out what Woodjack is going to do with the 500 pounds of meat he plans on shooting everyday...where he’s gonna actually find enough animals, that will dress out 500 pounds of meat, to shoot every day in the winter...and when he’s going to have enough daylight in Alaska in the winter, to hunt, shoot, butcher and pack 500 pounds of meat back to camp each day????????

I think after a about a week of this little “cenario†the dogs are gonna eat his ass and get the fu*k out of there!

This one is easy...

My stainless/synthetic (boat paddle stock) Ruger M77/MkII in 30-06 with compact Burris 4x scope. Loaded it's exactly 8 lbs ready to go...

The load? I'd use the 180gr Barnes TSX for my all-purpose load.

500 yards at game is a tall order, especially with a rifle powerful for 100% against a big bear point blank.
My Blaser R 93 in 375 H&H would probable get the nod. A 300 Mag would probably work too....
however D Humbarger might have a good idea. My H&K 91 in 308 with my Kahles ZF69 6x scope with Ballistic cam would be hard to beat. Show me the bear than can withstand up to 20 rounds of 180 Nosler Partitions...
I have killed antelope out to @ 350 yards with this 91 with no problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

I think after a about a week of this little “cenario†the dogs are gonna eat his ass and get the fu*k out of there!

Pretty much right on,Rick. Ain't NOTHIN' friendly or cuddly about a hell of a lot of the sled dogs I've met! Most of the ones I encountered in the North spent their summers individually chained to scrubby willow trees just to keep them from killing each other or anything else that got within reach. In 1975 or '76, we hired a doctor from eastern Canada to work in Lac La Ronge, Saskatchewan. He and his wife and young son moved there. Despite warnings to keep his son in, away from the dogs, one day his son (two or three years old, if I recall correctly) was out by himself anyway. The dogs killed and partially ate him. A damned pity but lots of things in the North are not as we would like to imagine them.

This whole scenario is pretty unrealistic to me. Traveling across the North and staying alive on your own is not "a picnic with a rifle". Mostly it's damned hard work, punctuated by spotty areas of absolutely "drive you insane" fly infestations (mosquitos, black flys, no-see-ums", etc). Between actual traveling, making camp, making and keeping a fire, etc., etc., there isn't a lot of time for sport hunting. When I was doing it, I ate a heck of a lot more birds than anything else, so most of the time my gun of choice was the .410 barrel on the Savage 219.

Feeding dogs isn't too hard in Northern Saskatchewan or Alberta, if you stay right next to a lake...you can get a pike just about every cast. But, doing that obviously isn't really gonna get you very far in your travels.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
As to Canadian women and Yanks, what bullshit, it's American women who lust after we manly, virile Canucks and we frequently have to fight them off in droves as we owe our allegiance to our own beautiful, hot, sexy ladies who simply eclipse any other females on Earth! So, eat your heart out, Canadian Beaver is not for you..............

HA!

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
...it's American women who lust after we manly, virile Canucks and we frequently have to fight them off in droves ....

Hey Ketchikan, So he "has the same charm here as 24hour". Doesn't surprise me at all.

Here I go offering to "clean-up" all the wounded critters he leaves scattered about because accuracy just isn't important and for some reason it puts him into his "normal state" of vulgarity. Sure looks like the "Little person" syndrom, just wanting to be a Big Man.

It might help you to visualize kutee as I do. I see "it" as about 5' tall. On top of the shoulders is about 1' of the part we normally wipe, which explains not only his brains but what typically spews forth. And when viewed from the front, I see from the shoulders down right at 4' of MOUTH.

And since I highly respect(?) his posts, I can see where he would be "fighting with women", it does fit.

Well, there is another example of Hot Core's usual method of attacking those whom he either disagrees with or is jealous of, usually the latter. His misspelled, grammatically erroneous and self-aggrandizing posts are probably the least appealing feature of AR and, as many posts from others have demonstrated, I am not the only one who thinks so. He has picked fights with various other posters and I think this demonstrates everything that anyone needs to know about HC, he is simply a person with obvious and severe mental problems.

It's curious, though, he claims to have such enormous hunting experience, yet, he never posts details thereof, including the ...charging Elephants... he talks about. He also claims to have...taken out...four brothers at once at some school shindig that he was kicked out of, boy, what a guy!!!

Factory stock model 70 classic stainless steel,.375HH, aperture sights, nylon sling. Kutenay says the first shot counts the most, so it better be a good one, fast and accurate and powerful. The rifle will be bouncing around in the Kifaru ready sling and getting wet and beat up so there's no point in something fancy. Chrome don't get ya home.

Alberta,

Sled dogs are mostly REALLY mean bastards...at least the ones I was around were.

About the only “game†that anyone would come in frequent contact with in Alaska, in the winter, would be rabbits, squirrels, and birds.

A Savage over and under .22/20ga might be nice since you could carry some slugs for the 20ga just in case you spotted a Moose...and you could use the .22 to kill yourself if you missed him and he charged you!

Rick - I know that the .22/20 ga. was partly in humour, but it would be a good gun for 80% of the time in the North. I always liked my 219 because I also had the other two barrels with me (same forend fitted them all).

The scope on the Hornet barrel was the little Redfield 3/4" tube 4-X, with belled ocular and objective lenses. It was handy for small deer, but mostly for varmints. (No, I am NOT including wolves in that. I always got along great with wolves...they used to sing one to sleep some nights and they'd kind of explore the edges of camp, but were just curious. They never made any hostile moves.)

The natives (northern "Indians") and Inuit used Hornets for many years, for everything from seals to caribou to polar bears...'cause that's what the Government gave them by way of arms and ammo. Later the gov't gave them bigger cartridges and rifles...the .222 Remington. I don't know what they have gotten in the past 20 years, but wouldn't surprise me if it was just an upgrade to the .223! The Metis, as they lived & sometimes worked intermingled with the "white" Canadians, used whatever they came by, lots of SMLE's and odds & sods of everything else too. Although I am a "Native American" by U.S. standards, I am really a Metis by Canadian views, so have personally had the chance to meet quite a few different guns in their hands.

I had the .30-30 barrel in case I needed something with heavier bullets. If you get close enough with 170 gr. bullets, it is pretty much like a .30-06 would be at 200 or so yards. I would have preferred a .303" barrel, either Savage or British, but Savage did not supply those for the Model 219. The only reason I would have liked that better is that you could get heavier bullets in factory ammo of that bore...190 gr. in the .303 Savage, and 174 or 215 gr. in the .303 Brit. (BTW, to all those who believe the .303 Savage always had a .308" diameter bullet, I still have some boxes of Canadian Industries Limited...CIL...190 gr. bullets for the .303 Savage. They are marked .311" diameter, and that's what they mic.)

Anyway, for cross country travel, most of the guns listed here would be a hindrance rather than a help, in my experience. Plan to live off mostly bird game & fish or spend some weeks making jerky. Carrying backstraps or part of a haunch, or some other big hunk of meat, and keeping it from spoiling, is not gonna make a guy's day any easier. You WILL need some source of fat as the weather gets colder, but as it gets colder the meat will be easier to keep (though NOT to cut), and your sled will finally become usable along with the damned dogs.

I would opt for a Win. mod 70 pre 64 in 30-06 or a Savage Mod 99 in .308 complete with iron sights and a 4X Leupold scope...As for 500 yard shots I would learn to hunt prior to the trip!

Ray - Two pretty skookum choices! Of the two, I'd personally likely choose your Savage M99, but in .300 Savage, especially if it was a take-down and if I could get a .410 barrel for it too...as used to be occasionally available...

For the pre-'64, I'd want the .30-06 FW, if I was gonna take it...every ounce makes a difference if you are carrying everything on your own back. In the winter, with the sled, (as long as you weren't in dense bush), weight wouldn't be quite as important. I have a FW now, which has had Stith 2-1/2 & 4-X, Kollmorgan 4 & 6-X, B&L Balvar 5, Weaver K-3 and a couple of other scopes on it, in Buehler, Leupold "Adjusto-Mount", and Stith "Master" & "Streamline" mounts on it. All worked pretty darned well, and several of those combos were carried in the North by me.

I especially liked your comment on learning to hunt. My first moose was at 180 yards (shot with a Brno ZKK-600 in 7x57 with 2-1/2-X Meopta scope in Meopta 1-piece-base slide-on mount, with 139 gr. Hornadys in converted '06 GI brass and the old RWS convex-top primers. And, yes, Virginia, both bullets completely penetrated the moose and exited the far side, with the two impacts about 2" apart). All the moose after that were shot at less than 50 yards, a couple at under 20 yards. All died on the spot...the last one while still in its bed (out in the middle of a danged muskeg!! Thought for a while I was going to have to eat him on the spot, too!).

500lbs of meat and 500yd shots sounded fair and reasonable when I started this post, I must be influenced by the British who think that 50 men,50 horses and 500 hounds chasing one dog on a fox hunt is fair.
I would go a pre64 type in .300 H&H,integral scope ring/base and a premium quality variable scope(tested in the freezer before I go).

I thank you for your post, Woodjack. Was interesting, and a good opportunity to share experiences and opinions.

If you ever get the chance, a great trip which can be done on foot in a month traveling at a very lazy rate, is to go into Northern Alberta, to the town of Athabasca, then go right (East) a few miles, then cross the Athabasca River to the north side at the bridge. Preferably, then go on up that road until you come to Calling Lake. From there, you can either start walking N x NE and eventually come out around Ft. McMurray/Lake Athabaska, or you can have someone drop you off at the Athabasca River itself east of Calling Lake, and float to Ft. McMurray in a matter of days. (You're better off to bear a little too much east on this trek...if you go too much north, you could end up spending twice as much time, and your real hopes then would be to find either Copper Mine or Ft. Smith in the NWT, or Uranium City over on the NE end of Lake Athabasca very close to the NWT/Saskatchewan border. Miss those, and your next sure-fire identifiable sightings could be many moons later and very bad news...either the Arctic Ocean (loosely generalized), or Hudson's Bay depending on whether you continued north or veered east too late. By staying biased to the east on this trek from the very beginning, you will keep butting up against the river, and will almost certainly find McMurray. If you actually get to Lake Athabaska, you are well too far North and need to follow the river back south to McMurray.

The best trip is in the early Fall (late August, early September), and by walking cross country along the ancient trail that more or less parallels the North Bank of the Athabasca River clear across the Athabasca Delta...one of the largest river Deltas in Canada. There is not a single paved road to be crossed in the whole couple of hundred miles, and only one or two dirt/gravel roads. There are a few low hills, but no mountains to be climbed. Whole area is FULL of game and fish.

Believe it or not, in 1971 I tried to hire a few young men who would be well paid to make that trip,and to do some surveys of the Athabasca Delta flora and fauna, pretty much on their own schedule, starting in April and ending in September, and I got exactly "0" takers!! We were all set to air-drop them supplies, and to keep them in contact by radio, and to provide all their equipment for them. But they all seemed more interested in summer in the big cities, and their girl-friends.

If a guy has a real taste for adventure, he can get himself dropped off in far Northern Alberta just below the southern edge of the McKenzie District of the N'West Territories. Some of the Dog-Rib indian familes there still make the age old trek east each year across the equivalent of about half of the McKenzie District and 3/4's the width of the Keewatin District to Baker Lake, subsistence trapping as they go. When enough get to Baker Lake, a radio call from the Hudson's Bay Company post there will get a DC-9 (or Fokker F-27, or some such) to drop out of the clouds on its daily trip overhead, to pick them up and take them up to Yellowknife, NWT. Then, they can hitch a ride from there down to Great Slave Lake, cross or do an end run around that, and take the McKenzie Highway south back into Northern Alberta and to their homes. Actual foot travel, which takes much of the year, is somewhere around 1,500-2,000 miles. For the average modern man, the two most important single items on that trip are LOTS of fly-dope, and intelligent patience. In the foot part of that whole trip, you will likely cross NO roads or railroads.

AB,
sometimes you have to make things sound rediculous to get peoples attention to get the ball rolling,then it all flows and sorts itself out from there.
I am not fond of walking all the time,and like treks as you suggest, where you dont have to waste time doubling back. I am fond of drop offs,(rotary wing) theres some thing special about flying into a remote area,and treking out,or just staying there for a while to explore. It would be great to fly into a remote base camp spot and have the Heli at you disposal. Cant you see yourself in one of these?
http://www.helispot.com/photos/00401.html