i found out today that John Ricks is down in california for "extended periods of time" building houses.maybe he can't hear his phone ring from all the noise on the jobsite? this is why he's not answering....LOL

Poulsbo, How did you find this out...did you talk to him? If so, how did you get ahold of him?

I would like to contact him reguarding my project.

Thanks, Doug

DOUG i'm sorry but the only #'s i have for him he will not answer,i found out what/where he is through a friend of mine who asked not be revealed, i will talk to my friend again and try to see if he knows any other way to contact him.

Where was Ricks located when He was working on peoples rifles.

What state?

Hes building houses in Calif? Is that where he is from?

John Ricks home and shop is on Mt. Pleasant Road, just outside of Port Angeles, Washington. Shop just back of the house, on a nice little 10-20 acre farm, more or less, the size and kind common to that area. The shop was well laid out, and equipped, I remember, I wouldn't know much about the farm or chicken ranch, or whatever it was. Wayne

If he is from out-of-state and doing business in CA he has to register for tax purposes. Isn't that a matter of public record?

He has to have a Calif General contractors liciense to build houses. They dont give those out free. You have to study and make a appointment for the test and there is a waiting line. And Calif is strickt as hell.
Call the contractors license board.

Unless he is in on some scam.

Perhaps, instead of being "in on some scam" he is simply working for a contractor. Perhaps he is doing this because he was offered the opportunity to take a job which offered him a better and more certain income for the immediate future. Perhaps he felt that he would be a fool to pass up this opportunity. Maybe he felt he could do this and return to catch up on his gunwork at a later date. Perhaps he should have simply returned all parts and told his customers to "go fish" but perhaps he was sure this would be a temporary hiatus so did not. I don't know. All is conjecture.
I do know that the incidence of "burnout" amongst gunsmiths is fairly common. Whether this is because they are simply poor businessmen or poor time managers (this is often the case)or their customer bases contains a higher percentage of aggravating assholes than is tolerable, it's hard for me to say. It is a bit of a concern though. Especially since so many of these are very competent or even talented gunsmiths.
I hope this situation resolves itself to everyone's satisfaction and John can quit getting this virtual flogging!
I'm a bit behind schedule myself and am feeling pretty nervous! Regards, Bill.

Maybe Mr. Ricks is trying to put food on the table. Who can say. Im with Bill Leeper on this. Im also behind and in general is because I spend a good amount of time talking to people who either have no intention of hiring me or if they do want something for nothing.

If ya dont have a dog in this fight maybe you should stay out of it? Just a suggestion.

I like John, and the work he did for me I'm mostly happy with. But I have to say, it's DAMN easy to set up a mailing list, with all clients on it, to send out bulk messages like 'all work on hold, won't be answering phones for two months. If you would like your things returned reply with "return" in the title.'
Or something similar. So, to you smiths who are feeling backed up, does this seem unreasonable? Maybe a weekly "what's happening in the shop" email to all clients would keep the phone calls down.
Or maybe it's just a different world with home-shop smiths, and we should just hand over our guns and wait patiently for our number to be called, and it's just that we don't understand the rules up front. I don't know. But it sure looks to me like a lot of unnecessary ugliness.
I'll bet it sucks for a talented gunsmith to be doing construction to pay the bills.

i don't give a flying "F" if someones aggrevated or burned out, you as a business owner must only take on work you can handle it's called SCHEDULING! how would you feel if someone had your pre-64 and $400 dollar barrel for ONE AND HALF YEARS! with no returned phone calls no email not even a "i'm burned out gunsmith i don't wanna build your gun" WAAAAAA cry me a river we all have jobs to do we all get burned out but most of us are still grown up enough to show up and work. not keep peoples property for years without reply.

I've found most people are generally very receptive to working out solutions to such things if they are kept in the loop. Leave people out in the cold, ignore them etc etc and people want to go for the throat. Can you blame them?

Mr Leepers post gives one a little insight into a part of the problem. Is this how these people see their customers? So a guy like Poulsbo who is concerned about his expensive guns and parts that he has entrusted to them and hasn't heard about them for a year and a half, or a month and a half or whatever, and can't find out what is going on is an aggravating asshole.

I think it's just the opposite. Mr Ricks has been getting away with a lot of this dissapearing crap because most everyone has been too tolerant of what ever game he's been playing here, contracting to do a job and then going off to do something else. And maybe thinking he's such a hotshot talented arteest gunbuilder too saintly and annointed to stoop to answer to all these lowly peasants who want to know what is happening to all their possesions and the profect they contracted for.

It's not that he don't know what he's doing either. I got an e-mail from John way back, stating that the Jack Belk affair was giving custom gunmakers a real bad name, when Jack dropped out and lot's of guns and parts went missing. So go figure. Wayne

its easy to get a contractors lic in calif
they give you the answers to the test

poulsbo,
Don't rant too heavily on me. I'm not your gunsmith. Don't hand me that "cry me a river" shit! When it comes to SCHEDULING, it's easy to say but not so easy to do sometimes. Customers often seem to have trouble accepting SCHEDULING.
I've been at this for nearly 30 years and I've seen most of the problems and pitfalls of what is a fairly unique business. I've avoided some and not avoided others. At times I've had to relearn lessons which had been forgotten.
By far the best situation for any gunsmith is to work from a separate shop, perhaps in affiliation with a retail outlet. This way he can work his 8 hour day then leave it behind at night. It will probably be necessary to have an unlisted number at home however.
Many gunsmiths have trouble separating their work and their hobby largely because they are the same thing. Also they have trouble differentiating between friends and customers because, again, they are the same thing. Some customers, whether deliberately or not, take advantage of this.
Many years ago I had a customer who wondered out loud why another 'smith had quit and sold all his tools. I told him it was likely because he got tired of a whole bunch of his customers always trying to chisel on prices.
"I was always happy to pay whatever he wanted", this fellow protested.
Yet, I had been in the shop and listened while this same guy asked the, now retired, 'smith "How much to refinish this stock?" and when given the price, "That sounds like quite a bit. How much for me?"
Please understand, I'm not trying to say poor service is acceptable and in most cases it could be greatly improved if the gunsmith would learn to "Just say NO". In order for this to really work though the client has to be able accept "NO" as well.
poulsbo, I am in no way saying your situation is in any way good or acceptable nor am I saying it is your fault. I am only commenting on a situation as I see it develope. If my input is offensive to you and you don't want hear it, maybe you shouldn't be doing your bitching on a public forum. Regards, Bill.

Bill Soverns and Bill Leeper,

I have a dog in this one. I'm missing parts that weren't returned. I had to pay for work that I didn't contract for. I had work contracted for and wasn't done. He did a considerable amount of load developement with my gun and brass and bullets I paid for. I didn't get the information, or even the SASE I sent him for it back.

Not even a note saying go hump yourself, or bugger off.

I'm with Demsey and Bwanabe and Poulsbo on this one.

You two are trying to excuse the in-excuseable.

Soverns, YOU are the one who doesn't have a dog in this one. You should take your own suggestion. Butt out and maybe read what Demsey and Bwanabe have to say about solutions. John Ricks could have been decent enough to do what they suggest. It would have saved his Rep as a good guy and gunbuilder. Wayne

I have built Custom homes in California . Its a tough business. I deal with tons of contractors and know the storys .

I have news , people want house built for nothing Too!

If those with an apparent "dog" in the fight don't like interuptions or intrusion, they ought to get togethor on a conference call. To rant on a public form and ask others to keep away .................... c'mon. The first thread was understandable, but this is a borderline whine session. We get the picture.

Chuck

Chuck, wuz only asking the man to take his own suggestion, and while some would say that the fellow is whinin', just as many others would say he's got a real bitch. Now for a gunbuilder who may see himself as a pure genuine martyr pushed to the limits of his endurance by his chiseling clients, the exposure of a skunk in thier midst may be more than they want to bear, and that's all right, understandable, but for every really put-upon gunsmith i see here I can name a whole bunch of people who entrusted smiths with their guns and never seen them again. So warning people and exposeing skunks should be a legitimate use for a public forum. Especially skunks who used the very same forum to promote themselves and sucker in the yokels. Wayne

I know John Ricks only from my dealings with him as a customer, but I'd be very surprised if he's working at anything other than 'smithing as a matter of preference. If he's got an outside job it's because he wasn't able to make ends meet as a gunsmith. Anybody who's talked with him at any length knows that he lives to do custom gunwork to the best of his ability.

He doesn't have anything of mine at the moment- but if he did I hope I'd be waiting and working to hear from him rather than trashing him based on hearsay in a public forum.

You've been screwed, we get it.

Chuck

Don G, how long would you wait with no contact before you became upset? Not looking to incite riots or flame anyone. I do find this whole thing interesting from a different perspective.

I CAN CLEARLY SEE WHO USED BE A USED CAR SALESMAN......

Walex,
I don't mean to label anyone as aggravating or an asshole. In fact I am sympathetic towards those who have had such difficulties with any tradesman. I've been burned by virtually every automotive professional with whom I've dealt so I understand the frustrations felt by those clients who have been wronged.
Virtually all of my customers, past and present, are great guys and, I often felt, deserved better than I could deliver. There have been times, over the years, that I have dropped the ball so to speak and it always weighed heavily on me. Perhaps, for this reason, I am a bit too tolerant of the failings of other gunsmiths and hope their mistakes are anomalies. Sadly this is not always the case.
As to the length of time without contact which is acceptable, I think this is a call which can only be made by the individual. It seems that in this case the old saying should be modified to read, "No news is just that. No news!". It is seldom that the gunsmith is keeping good news bottled up inside!
There are some gunsmiths and gunmakers who are very astute businessmen. Chances are though, all have gone througha period or two where they were less so until they learned what they needed to know. Others, for whatever reason, seem incapable of learning.
poulsbo,
To whom are you referring? It can't be me. I'm an ex-sawmill worker, logger, machinist, mechanic, soldier, and guide, and have lost my ass on virtually everything I have ever sold! Regards, Bill.
P.S. I personally am taking on no more work until I can get a good handle on my existing backlog. I don't like being too far behind.

Well, if Mr. Ricks ran his gunshop like a business, and actually spent the time working at it that is required to actually get some work done in order to be able to charge for it, he wouldn't have to make a living any where else.

The fact is he ran his shop like a hobby, at his clients expense, at HIS pleasure, whenever HE felt like it,in total disregard of the customers needs and their time.

He did some super good work on my project, he also did some real shoddy work, really half-assed. He was test-firing my rifle and returned it to me with-out even looking at the mal-functioning safety That I told him needed to be looked at.

I wouldn't imagine too many smiths would want to risk the liability exposure that little details like this would incur.

And for instance, if he short throated Poulsbos chamber and that's what is causing his cases to stick in the chamber, wouldn't that have been a problem for the smith, had the thing developed really excessive pressure and caused an accident? A really liability problem?

A real close look inside Mr Ricks shop operation looked to me a lot more like a fairly well to do retired guy's shop than that of a struggling craftsman hard at work struggling to make ends meet., but who knows. But his approach to the business also more or less bears this observation out.

If that was the case, he should have been up-front about it with his clients, and I believe others have pointed this out.

Also, this being a free country, I admit that if someone wants to contract for a job, and wants to wait for years in the hope that some time maybe years down the road, he may (or may not) get a nice job done, maybe, then that is OK too. Those people should have the same consideration for the guy who bitches about a poor job done, or wants to try and locate the smith who dissapeared, can't be found or contacted, and who would like to have his stuff or his money back.

That is really what this post by Poulsbo is all about. I don't imagine that those guys give a rats rear about hearing what a nice guy John Ricks is or has been, or how great a smith he was when ever he wanted to be and it pleased him. Wayne

Bill Leeper, I thought that I was the only one who always sold low and bought high. I should apologize for making comment on the aggravating assholes, as I know that in a long career of working and struggling in a small business, you had to have met some real doozies. Did you ever in your logging days, ever work for any dyed in the wool Oregon gyppos? Forty some odd years later I'm still waiting for a couple of log-rafts to get to the mill so I can get my pay-check. Wayne

<this is NOT a post as the moderator>

Guys,
either give it a rest or lynch him. If you have a gun (there's 6 of you) you need to send him a letter.

Give that a week, and see what happens.

Tearing the guy apart, repetedly, in public is just not becoming to gentlemen.

<mod hat back on>

"jeffe, pull this stick out, ".. yep.. but, you know, he's not here to defend himself, and it's awful easy to TALK to a keyboard, rather than to a man's face

jeffe

quote:

As to the length of time without contact which is acceptable, I think this is a call which can only be made by the individual. It seems that in this case the old saying should be modified to read, "No news is just that. No news!". It is seldom that the gunsmith is keeping good news bottled up inside!

I'm sorry but that is just wrong. Gunsmithing may be unique in certain ways but is really no different than any other business that provides a service. My father owned a transmission shop for many years, when he decided to retire the first thing he did was refuse more work, the second was to finish to completion every customers item he had left in the shop. It really isn't rocket science. This situation just flat out stinks to high heaven, aside from the specifics of this situation, the attitude in general that a person is at the mercy of a smith once he drops off his rifle is just plain wrong and unacceptable. It really isn't that difficult to tell a customer what to expect for a time line and if he doesn't like it politely reject the project.

This is an age old problem in the gunsmith trade, most simply cannot demand the money to survive and they get in over there heads, then they play hide and seek...I think Hawkins himself was guilty of this from time to time...

Its a tough business but I find it hard to forgive any of them when they won't try and work it out with you and keep in touch...Ricks was fair with me in my dealing with him, but I have seen this happen to many gunsmiths....

For John's sake, as well as his customers, I hope that he can begin communicating with you guys. It is most definitely a sad state of affairs considering his talent and knowledge in the field.

I've met and spoke with hundreds of different smiths and gunbuilders over the years and have considered John amongst the most knowledgeable in regards to how to make one shoot accurately, as well as being reliable.

John, if you're listening by chance, I've got work for you right now in a friendlier state. Hearing about you building houses makes my stomach turn. It's like going to law school to flip burgers at McDonald's......just don't fit.

As for the rest of ya with "dogs in fights", I hope this gets resolved soon, but keep in mind, it's not uncommon at all to have custom rifles on backorder for 2-3 years with good smiths. Patience and some tact might go a long way. Flaming on this forum isn't gonna get anything resolved any quicker. If he's not answering his emails, he's probably not looking at this site, so it's nothing more than soap box time.

Try a certified professional letter outlining what you had expected by now and good luck.

No offense intended to either gunsmith or any of his customers, but there is a reason guys drop $10-20K for a fine custom rifle from one of the established makers - a combination of delivery and quality. All of the aggravation of not getting a project done on time or not getting it how you want it can make any savings seem not worth while at all.

jeffe, what you suggest has been done. How about a month and a half or so. Sent the man a letter, told him what I'd like to have back, sent a self-addressed stamped envelope and waited, and waited, still waiting. That is what the post is about.

As for the guy not being there to defend himself, actually that would be preferable, and even better if he were to take the first punch and start swinging in good old American traditional fashion like in the olden days, but that just doesn't seem to be his style, to show up, or explain, or whatever, no matter what the format.

Wel, I was patient, didn't call him very often, didn't bug him, even when the project that he said would take a few months, stretched into a year and a half, and then after many months I got through to him on the e-mail he wanted to do more load developement, and he had to think about the dies, and I could see another year and 1/2 going by wasted waiting for the Pacific Northwest sun to shine on his chrony.

One thing has come out of this post is that he has been playing this game for a lot longer than what I was involved,

Well jeffe, even if Ricks did answer a letter or show up in person, what could he say? "So sue me" "Screw you guys" What? Wayne

Wayne,
I'll ask you a question in answering yours. What does venting on line accomplish, once it's been said?

Catharsis? sure...

remember, i aint defending his actions, just trying to "be fair"


the so sue me issue.. that's another issue, and, frankly, i would get a recorder and have him knowingly say that. Then go to my local small claims with a postal inspector

jeffe

500, I WAS prepared to pay many many times what he finally billed me, had he finished the job and did what I wanted done, and had done it right, and Matt, I'm extremely happy with the chambering work, and work on the feeding from the magazine.

He didn't reshape the straight out bolt handle like I asked, so it wouldn't clank the scope. Instead of cutting the scope rails/bases integral on the double square bridges, he made up some real ugly mickey mouse bases, and mounted the scope about 3 inches high, to give the bolt handle clearance. He had pointed out that the scope mount holes were drilled crooked, and guess what, Yup, the bases and the scope is not pointed in exactly the same direction as the barrel.

Using up most of the scope adjustment to bring the POI over closer to center field, and I've never seen such accuracy in a rifle. One would be hard put to find a better chambering job, with such perfect headspace.

But if I put him to work at anything, I'd make sure that he was well supervised. Wayne

Jeffe, didn't really see any "venting" here, just some customers looking for answers, as well as calling a spade a spade, and a fraud a fraud, and a sociologist could better explain the benefis of that as well as venting. Overall I would think it tends to make an environment where spades find it harder to be spades and frauds find it harder to be frauds. Acting on the theory that you can't shame the shameless, you can make it harder for them to operate. Wayne

Walex,
Never worked in Oregon but did spend a month bucking for free in BC when the contractor bailed. Worked through most of elk season too! Of course, this probably made little difference to my chances of success anyway since they are usually pretty sad.
Dempsey,
I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to say that when you don't hear from a gunsmith it usually means he has nothing positive to tell you about your job. It doesn't necessarily mean there is anything bad either. Just nothing at all. Regards, Bill.

i once had to call the local sherriff to go and see if the gunsmith holding a rifle for me had died such a long period of time went by with no response to my phone calls all i wanted was my gun back and it was a 5000$ gun at that i finally got everthing back along with a nasty note after 1 1/2 years i havent had a custom gun built since,if i did it would be by a big gun house.


i am a remodeling contractor the only time i dont return someones calls is when i know i dont want to do there work but not after i take there money or actually start the work i actually go overboard to keep in touch with them

Last Thursday I sent Mr. Ricks a letter Priority Mail stating "No hard feelings, but I couldn't wait any longer and would like my rifle returned." Last night about 11pm CST. I got an email from him saying he was still out of town and would be till the end of the week. He did acknowledge he had gotten the letter (Someone at home must be relaying messages to him) and he would get my rifle boxed up and mail it Monday. I really didn't want to post anymore on the John Ricks threads as I don't see what it's accomplishing. But, I also don't want to castigate those that continue this as I know how it feels to wait and wait and be out of the loop. I think some would have a different point of view if they had work sitting there waiting to be finished and vice versa. Those who said to send a letter, that's very good advice, it worked for me.

What I've got over there certainly isn't an heirloom. It's an unused magnum Whitwoth mauser action with a new factory stock I bought from SARCO. It's got a Shilen #5 barrel with quarter rib and express sight, barrel band swivel and hooded front sight. Nothing extraordinary, just a good .375H&H working gun.

I really don't want to run the mans name in the ground. He's already building houses. For those have never done it for a living, it's some where between purgatory and hell on earth.

Here is a picture he sent me of the gun a few months ago


Terry

quote:

Originally posted by walex:
Jeffe, didn't really see any "venting" here, just some customers looking for answers, . Wayne

Wayne,
there a 6 guns in question, 5 owners, and I know 2 of those owners I don't imagine you have a dog in the fight, right? One of those people sent a letter and is supposed to be getting his rifle back next week.

I have suggested, to both the fellas I know, on the phone, to send a letter and get moving.

Perhaps I have a different measure of "venting"...

results for ACTION not from a forum where the gent isn't present.

Terry,
one of the few things worse than building houses (and not guns) is painting them.

jeffe

All I've got left to say is that like building a custom musical instrument, house, boat, fishpole, a custom gun project should be a happy satisfying experience, for both the artist/craftsman builder and the client, a good shared experience, to be savored and treasured. Not a totally in the dark, nightmare, and not knowing for months and months at a time if you'll ever even get your stuff back or hear from it again.

I think that most every one is here, because they love their guns and their sport, and their hunting and the good friends that go with it all. That's the real loss. When a guy sends a treasured gun, or expensive parts, to have the dream gun of a lifetime put together and then it disapears and you don't know if you will ever see it again, well, that's one thing, but when the happy hopes and dreams are taken away, that's another. Wayne