I had a barrel that was threaded for a standard M700 and sent it to a friend who wanted to mess with that caliber. The action he was going to use it in had been trued by, who knows. The threads were oversize in the action resulting in a very sloppy fit with this barrel I sent him. He turned the treaded off the barrel, made a sleeve and used retaining compound to "glue" the sleeve on. Then he cut threads on the sleeve to the proper size for the action.. I just can't think that this is going to turn out well.
What are your opinions ?

quote:

Originally posted by Pat B.:
I had a barrel that was threaded for a standard M700 and sent it to a friend who wanted to mess with that caliber. The action he was going to use it in had been trued by, who knows. The threads were oversize in the action resulting in a very sloppy fit with this barrel I sent him. He turned the treaded off the barrel, made a sleeve and used retaining compound to "glue" the sleeve on. Then he cut threads on the sleeve to the proper size for the action.. I just can't think that this is going to turn out well.
What are your opinions ?

Tell your friend not to stop with the removal of the old threads, but to continue and remove the entire shank and start from scratch by cutting a new tennon with threads of the proper size. What he is doing is dangerous.

Take the great advice offered by malm and if the receiver threads were cut using Dave Manson tooling they are .010†oversize and he needs to have a new major thread diameter of 1.072â€/1/075†to get a good fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat B.:
I had a barrel that was threaded for a standard M700 and sent it to a friend who wanted to mess with that caliber. The action he was going to use it in had been trued by, who knows. The threads were oversize in the action resulting in a very sloppy fit with this barrel I sent him. He turned the treaded off the barrel, made a sleeve and used retaining compound to "glue" the sleeve on. Then he cut threads on the sleeve to the proper size for the action.. I just can't think that this is going to turn out well.
What are your opinions ?

Malm is absolutely right.......he's got the potential there to kill himself or someone else with that stunt.

Pat

If you'll scroll down to the next page you'll find a thread that discusses "outserts" which are sleeves that are THREADED onto a barrel tenon. If he installed a sleeve without a thread what he has done is create a very dangerous situation either for himself or the unlucky bastard that happens to own that rifle in the future. Sooner or later that sleeve will loosen and come off or, worse, slip partially off creating dangerous headspace. Copy this thread and send it to him. For his own good.

Ray

Refuse to take posession of the gun........This is an extremely poor procedure.

The gun should not be fired anytime like this.

Call me old fashioned but gluing guns together just ain't right! I don't care what kind of space age super duper adheisive they cook up, barrels have been machanically fastened - threaded, pinned or soldered/welded - together too long for me to adapt. This sounds like a particulr bad idea though!

I am curious as to what you guys think may be dangerous if this is done properly. I certainly would not profess doing it, but I can see nothing that might be really out of whack with it, as far as anyone being hurt by it. I may be overlooking something, if you people have any reasons why this may be bad voodoo I would like to hear from you about it. Thanks.

I'll throw this in just fer the hell of it:

relined barrels are glassed in, and chambered, but we got apples and oranges here, yeah/no?

-and the obvious solution to the question asked is to recut and thread the tenon properly, as stated.

Cheech is right. Go to Benchrestcentral and do a search. Dennis Sorrensen (sp) posted some picks on a threaded sleeve over old barrel threads.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
I am curious as to what you guys think may be dangerous if this is done properly. I certainly would not profess doing it, but I can see nothing that might be really out of whack with it, as far as anyone being hurt by it. I may be overlooking something, if you people have any reasons why this may be bad voodoo I would like to hear from you about it. Thanks.

Two scenarios: if the barrel shoots off of the insert, the unsupported case head ruptures under pressure or the case tears in half with the same resulting gas escape. Second scenario is what Cheechako said. If the barrel slips forward in the insert un-noticed by the shooter, you have instant excessive headspace with the potential for the same disasterous result. I don't doubt there are bonding agents out there that have the strength to withstand the basic stress but to expect consistent performance over the 25-50 year life of a gun through all the abuse it might see is foolish at best. A threaded "outsert" at least has mechanical support, even if it ain't exactly popular.

Pat B. did say it was a M700. No info on caliber but I guess we can assume it was chambered for at least a 40,000PSI CF round. That's quite a difference from a RF barrel.

Apples & oranges - yes.

It would be a matter of someone caring enough to do a hoop stress analysis and see if there is enough strength in the remaining chamber wall at the minor thread diameter for the intended chamber pressure plus the standard safety factor. There really is no reason for guesswork. It can be calculated on a case by case (pardon the pun) basis.

Not taking sides here just kicking things around.

A few years ago Midway ran some light weight barrels short chambered for 243 that had a threaded sleeve installed just as you guys described. They were intended for use on large ring 98 Mausers. Did anyone here see one or use one?

Pat,
Get your bow out and kill some more of those big hogs on your place. Anybody that would set at the bench and shoot 50 rounds of full loads of 375 H&H with only time in between for a few patches down the tube is a little crazy. What do you think of the reverse taper barrel that I sent you.
Butch

A threaded on sleeve works fine. I've done lots of them. I've also seen them silver soldered on and even soft soldered ( I wasn't too sure about this but it seemed to work. I don't think I would do it.) A glued on sleeve though...I don't think so. I was always going to try it on a junker just to see how much Devcon would take. I suspect a good joint might well hold. I wouldn't want to be shooting it though. Tell him not to shoot it and to redo it with a threaded sleeve. For a Remington sized thread, I use a 15/16x20tpi sleeve. It is loctited in place then threaded for the Remington. Same for mauser. Regards, Bill

Oops, I mis read the original thread, I thought the guy threaded the sleeve on............I did not realize you were talking about "gluing" the sleeve on.

Beep, Beep, Beep, Danger Will Robinson, Danger Will Robinson, Beep, Beep, Beep !

The barrel was originally chambered for a 6.5x284 and was an exceptionally fine shooter. I hadn't used it in a couple of years and didn't expect to. This friend wanted a 6.5x284 so I gave him the barrel. He has glued the sleeve on and threaded it to fit his oversize 700. I haven't heard from him on the outcome. Like most of you I couldn't see the benifit of doing this over just cutting off the tennon and starting over. I'm sure the inside threaded sleeve as Bill Leeper suggests would be fine but I'm not so sure about retaining compound.
Think I'll take Butch's advice and go hunting. I haven't chambered the reverse taper yet, it's a bit different, eh ??

I have made threaded sleeves to fit Win94 barrels on large bolt actions without a reamer.

Making internal threads is a pain.
The first bushing got left handed threads

The math to get the sight dovetails to clock [and concurrently headspace] requires internal and external threads to have a different pitch.


Gluing on a barrel?
It can be done.
It would take a big clamp.
The chamber pressure temporarily subtracts from the force on the shoulder, and thus reduces the force on threads or glue.
Maybe the next generation of Remingtons will be glued to save cost

I always scratch my head a bit whenever these types of topics come up.

All of these Rube Goldberg “fixes†might have had a modicum of validity back in the days before you could easily purchase new barrels. But today when you can order a brand new barrel and have it in your hands the next day and for under the cost of a tank of gas in some cases, why would anyone even bother with all this stupid stuff?

In this particular case it would have probably been a whole hell of allot easier to just buy another action. Midway sells them for $300.00 brand new and that barrel would have screwed right on to it.

If that was totally out of the question, malm suggested another way to solve the problem that doesn’t require resorting to such a questionable procedure as has been described.

PatB asked:

quote:

What are your opinions ?

in the plural.

personally, I enjoy the hell out of everyone sharing their expertise and experiences.

quote:

used retaining compound to "glue" the sleeve on.

I think that the shear strength of Loctite is stong enough for this, BUT (it is a big but too)
Loctite melts at 400F and is subject to attack by some chemicals. What it's fatigue properties are with a hot barrel I don't know. If the sleeve was 3 or 4 inches long I am sure it would be ok. I don't think a sleeve the length of a barrel shank would give me a warm fuzzy.

A lot of barrel liners are installed with Loctite these days but that is a lot more contact.

Not at all advocating it be used for this, but the Loctite 600 series bearing retaining compounds are very resistent to chemicals, and withstands temps around 700 degrees if I recall.

It’s the stuff that comes with the Brownells bolt body bushing kit used to attach the bushings to the bolt body.

Loctite RC680 would probably hold up (for a couple of shots anyway) if he got a close tolerance fit and used PERFECT surface preparation.

but I'm not sure enough that loctite would holdto prevent me from saying that if he was going to shoot it without pulling on a string from behind sandbags I'd want to be the beneficiary of his life insurance.


AllanD

Maybe this whole topic should be included in that new DVD coming out: “Gunsmiths Gone Wild!â€

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

used retaining compound to "glue" the sleeve on.

I think that the shear strength of Loctite is stong enough for this, BUT (it is a big but too)
Loctite melts at 400F and is subject to attack by some chemicals. What it's fatigue properties are with a hot barrel I don't know. If the sleeve was 3 or 4 inches long I am sure it would be ok. I don't think a sleeve the length of a barrel shank would give me a warm fuzzy.

A lot of barrel liners are installed with Loctite these days but that is a lot more contact.

Yeah,
It took my slow brain a few years to cut threads and a shoulder and then screw it in.

Getting bonding to work, take the shock, temp, and chemicals would require me to do research, think, and work.

My future looks more like falling down and breaking a hip on the way to the bingo parlor.

No new technologies for me.

When I posted that I really didn't see what the danger was, I took this to be a thresded inside and outside sleeve. I would not try and glue a sleeve on to a barrel and thread that.

quote:

All of these Rube Goldberg “fixes†might have had a modicum of validity back in the days before you could easily purchase new barrels. But today when you can order a brand new barrel and have it in your hands the next day and for under the cost of a tank of gas in some cases, why would anyone even bother with all this stupid stuff?

FYJ,
this pains me, but that is one heck of a good question!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

All of these Rube Goldberg “fixes†might have had a modicum of validity back in the days before you could easily purchase new barrels. But today when you can order a brand new barrel and have it in your hands the next day and for under the cost of a tank of gas in some cases, why would anyone even bother with all this stupid stuff?

FYJ,
this pains me, but that is one heck of a good question!

Rusty,

If YOU think it’s a good question then I think I might have to go back and reconsider it. After all, you also seem to think the moderator knows what he’s talking about.

Some barrels are not that easily replaced or reproduced. It is a case of when does a particular barrel (like a full-round integral full rib from a small ring Mauser) deserve an extra effort to be re-mounted and preserved? Or an original rolling block barrel or any other antique part that has the potential to be part of a reproduction or restoration if there is a trick to make it work safely. Kind of like reboring; when it makes sense you'll see it right away.

And like it or not, the moderator here has opinions just like you. It would be nice if you and poleaxe would at least wait for him to comment before you start hammering him. (cleaned up for the sake of the season)

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
Maybe this whole topic should be included in that new DVD coming out: “Gunsmiths Gone Wild!â€

More like "bubba's gone wild".

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Some barrels are not that easily replaced or reproduced. It is a case of when does a particular barrel (like a full-round integral full rib from a small ring Mauser) deserve an extra effort to be re-mounted and preserved? Or an original rolling block barrel or any other antique part that has the potential to be part of a reproduction or restoration if there is a trick to make it work safely. Kind of like reboring; when it makes sense you'll see it right away.

And like it or not, the moderator here has opinions just like you. It would be nice if you and poleaxe would at least wait for him to comment before you start hammering him. (cleaned up for the sake of the season)

Well “Bubba†it ain’t the moderator’s “opinions†that draw the comments, not from me anyway. It’s his continual posting of out and out BS that he offers up as facts that I have commented on.

If you are choosing to believe his “story telling†then that really says allot about your experience as well.

So far, in just the last couple of weeks I have personally tested out four of his claims, and have found them all to be false.

1. There is no such cutting tool for turning a muzzle crown as he described on the web site he directed me to, nor anywhere else for that matter.

2. NECG peep sights do not change their elevation setting when the disc is removed or loose.

3. Williams sight discs have the exact same thread size and length as NECG discs. At least the ones I own do.

4. And bar soap doesn’t do diddly squat to keep solder from flowing and sticking on steel.

If he has posted this much BS in this short of a time I can only imagine how much he has dribbled out over the last few years.

Perhaps that sort of stuff is approved, condoned and encouraged within your Band of Bubba’s, but for the rest of us perhaps it isn’t.

Merry Christmas, and remember: You better not pout, you better not LIE, cuz Santa will pass you Bubba’s right on by!

All that being a bubba means is we enjoy shooting and spending a day with each other. Whether Jeffe knows his shit or not is out of the equation; he is good company in person.

You, on the other hand are probably a dick either way. And malm, stick to the topic and quit smearing a group because you don't like one one (or two, as the case may be) members.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
All that being a bubba means is we enjoy shooting and spending a day with each other. Whether Jeffe knows his shit or not is out of the equation; he is good company in person.

You, on the other hand are probably a dick either way. And, malm, you've been a prick ever since your "diveboss" PM.

There is a HUGE (!!!!!!!!!!!) difference between “knowing your shit†and lying your ass off, making stuff up, and then attacking people that call you on it after they have proved that you are full of crap.

If you and your fellow “Bubba’s†like the guy and don’t mind that you can’t believe 95% of what he says then that’s your business I guess.

If not suffering fools and liars (and their defenders) makes me a dick, then I will wear that title with pride, thank you.

I don’t know malm but I have a good friend living in Utah that has used him to work on several of his rifles and according to my friend (who isn’t a liar) malm is a first rate, fulltime gunsmith that does incredibly good work.

If malm posts advice or suggestions on working on rifles I would tend to believe that he knows what he is talking about and has actually had hands on experience with it. That is most certainly not the case with your friend.

Work on your reading comprehension, fyj. I don't support or criticize malm's credentials. Just his shot at "bubbas". I probably took it too personal and backed off my first crack at him but not in time, I guess.

Likewise, I neither support or criticize the moderator's gunsmithing, just your propensity to drag him into threads whether he participated or not. Attack the man's errors anytime he's wrong, just remember that gratuitous negatives say more about you than about him.

I, OTOH am a true asshole and any gratuitous negatives you wish to heap on me are just fertilizer for the attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
You, on the other hand are probably a dick either way.

This seem likely the case. Right on!

quote:

And malm, stick to the topic and quit smearing a group because you don't like one one (or two, as the case may be) members.

Malm is not always right here either. It's been shown several times as well.

He does seem to like to discredit others all too often. Sticking to the topic isn't something he can be relied on to do.

quote:

Originally posted by duikerman:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
You, on the other hand are probably a dick either way.

This seem likely the case. Right on!

quote:

And malm, stick to the topic and quit smearing a group because you don't like one one (or two, as the case may be) members.

Malm is not always right here either. It's been shown several times as well.

He does seem to like to discredit others all too often. Sticking to the topic isn't something he can be relied on to do.

You and tiggertate seem to be far more familiar with “dicks’ than I am, have you two been off together comparing notes perhaps?

Please direct me to all of your posts where you have contributed any sage or helpful suggestions or observations on any topic having to do with gunsmithing. I did a search and couldn’t find any.

quote:

Please direct me to all of your posts where you have contributed any sage or helpful suggestions or observations on any topic having to do with gunsmithing. I did a search and couldn’t find any.

Ever notice we only find what we want to find?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

I, OTOH am a true asshole and any gratuitous negatives you wish to heap on me are just fertilizer for the attitude.

LMAO!!! can I use that one, Tigger?

jeffe

fyj,
I don't have a dog in this fight. I just want to know where Pat's friend can find a $300 Remington action in Midway and where can you get a $60 barrel in 6.5x284 ready to screw on? $60 will fill my Duramax diesel.
Butch