A question for custom rifle builders. Why is the Win mod 70 pre 64 action in such demand for custom projects. What makes it a better platform than a current mod 70 CRF? I have a few pre 64 model 70's (270 featherweight and a 300 H&H) and both shoot very well but so do my New Haven guns. Do a little action work and a little trigger work and they both function flawlessly?
Just curious??

EZ

Some traditions die hard.

I look forward to the day when shooters discover how good many of the push feed actions are......but not holding my breath.

Until then they are dirt cheap!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Some traditions die hard.

I look forward to the day when shooters discover how good many of the push feed actions are......but not holding my breath.

Until then they are dirt cheap!

Well...try feeding one upside down..i.e. pissed off lion trying to hurt your feelings

Main reason IMO is...ta da....drum roll please..."they don't make 'em any more!"

No question they're relatively weak and don't handle gas well but - they don't make 'em any more and Jack O liked 'em.
Regards, Joe

In addition to the CRF, there is a suble stylishness that you can's quite describe, but you know it is there. Kind of like a girl with something near perfect, but not the campus queen. Understated elegance. Ok, I have waxed poetic enough! I think they make great rifles and custom rifles particularly!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Some traditions die hard.

I look forward to the day when shooters discover how good many of the push feed actions are......but not holding my breath.

Until then they are dirt cheap!

Well...try feeding one upside down..i.e. pissed off lion trying to hurt your feelings

This is a very weak argument for a man building a .243, .257 Roberte etc!

There might be some validity for a DGR but even then it's still a weak argument!

In comparison to the New Haven Classics, there are a few things which truly favor the pre-64 and especially, the pre-war actions.
The first and main advantage is the one piece bolt body and handle. The pre-64 handle will never come adrift.
The feed rails are machined into the bottom of the receiver rather than being bent in lips on the sheet metal box.
The early bolt stop was fitted to the receiver so that stress from the bolt hitting the bolt stop was transfered to the receiver rather than just to the trigger pin.
The pre-64 bottom metal was not thick, clunky and ugly. Sadly, these adjectives are perfectly descriptive of late model factory metal. Those rifles which used Williams bottom metal were much better and I think the Williams metal is just fine.
The receiver threads in a pre-64 go all the way around the receiver ring instead of being interupted like the New Haven Classics.
Gas handling was a weakness in the pre-64 action but there was no improvement in the new classics. In fact, the new models lacked the vent at the top of the left raceway.
After about 1960, the pre-64's suufered from some real quality control issues. The answer to this was to make a rifle so lacking in quality, there was nothing to control. This was done in 1964. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Some traditions die hard.

I look forward to the day when shooters discover how good many of the push feed actions are......but not holding my breath.

Until then they are dirt cheap!

Well...try feeding one upside down..i.e. pissed off lion trying to hurt your feelings

This is a very weak argument for a man building a .243, .257 Roberte etc!

There might be some validity for a DGR but even then it's still a weak argument!

Especially when PFs will feed upside down.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
In comparison to the New Haven Classics, there are a few things which truly favor the pre-64 and especially, the pre-war actions.
The first and main advantage is the one piece bolt body and handle. The pre-64 handle will never come adrift.
The feed rails are machined into the bottom of the receiver rather than being bent in lips on the sheet metal box.
The early bolt stop was fitted to the receiver so that stress from the bolt hitting the bolt stop was transfered to the receiver rather than just to the trigger pin.
The pre-64 bottom metal was not thick, clunky and ugly. Sadly, these adjectives are perfectly descriptive of late model factory metal. Those rifles which used Williams bottom metal were much better and I think the Williams metal is just fine.
The receiver threads in a pre-64 go all the way around the receiver ring instead of being interupted like the New Haven Classics.
Gas handling was a weakness in the pre-64 action but there was no improvement in the new classics. In fact, the new models lacked the vent at the top of the left raceway.
After about 1960, the pre-64's suufered from some real quality control issues. The answer to this was to make a rifle so lacking in quality, there was nothing to control. This was done in 1964. Regards, Bill

Bill,

I would categorise all of that under the heading "desirability"

The bolt handle is an interesting one since so many custom gunsmiths cut them off and start again

In addition, the M70 was not an action that was designed with any gimmicks like Ruger's angled front screw. The M70 was designed to be bedded, the big recoil lug and tang and screw in the middle of the bedding flat and with a mid section like a girder.

But "desirability" is the key as someone wanting an expensive custom gun does not need questions about the action. No matter how good investment casting is a Ruger will not seen on an expensive gun. Ditto for leggo actions like the later Sakos.

And of course of your post illustrates why the Pre 64 is more "desirable" than the later M70s.

I believe D'Arcy Echols will disagree with you.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I believe D'Arcy Echols will disagree with you.

Probably because of the availability of them, I would think.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I believe D'Arcy Echols will disagree with you.

Probably because of the availability of them, I would think.

and might another m70 master-Dave Miller, whos not shy of using the classicM70.

p64 actions arent that rare. If your ordering a Legend, your probably not the kind of person who needs to wait for a super bargain p64 receiver or donor rifle to come available...just pay a $200 premium, and get your $20k rifle started, so you can go on your $30k hunt.
ClassicCRF actions are better suited to .300/.375H&H.
The P64 starves you of load length, & thats even after considerable metal has been sliced away from the lug abutements.

quote:

No matter how good investment casting is a Ruger will not seen on an expensive gun....

maybe unlikely in an boltRifle, but ive seen many dolleros spent on investment cast falling blocks.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by vapodog:
Some traditions die hard.

I look forward to the day when shooters discover how good many of the push feed actions are......but not holding my breath.

Until then they are dirt cheap!



Well...try feeding one upside down..i.e. pissed off lion trying to hurt your feelings

Well, after hearing this a hundred times, or so, I thought I would test my finely tuned BS detector and go home and try it. I loaded my ADL in 308 with one round of three bullet weights and tried to feed it upside down. It fed and ejected perfectly! So, I thought it might be a magnum thing, so I loaded the 264WM with three different bullet weights in the ADL, and SAME THING, it fed and ejected perfectly upside down. So I would call that myth busted, at lease with my small sample of two.

Now on to the firing upside down with the charging lion. I am curious, has anyone had had this scenario actually happen to them? Has anyone HEARD of a hunter having to fire on their back upside down? (I'm assuming that is the scenario since it would be stupid not to just turn the rifle over if standing.) Or is this another myth that doesn't exist, or perhaps a South Central LA thing like the other gang member gun holding? Just curious since the BS meter is going off on this too.

quote:

Now on to the firing upside down with the charging lion. I am curious, has anyone had had this scenario actually happen to them? Has anyone HEARD of a hunter having to fire on their back upside down? (I'm assuming that is the scenario since it would be stupid not to just turn the rifle over if standing.) Or is this another myth that doesn't exist, or perhaps a South Central LA thing like the other gang member gun holding? Just curious since the BS meter is going off on this too.

Precisely.

Don't get me wrong here.....I'm not at all anti "pre-64"....I have now and have had pre-64s and a few later CRF rifles as well as a whole boat load of '98 Mausers! I have just not found anything objectionable with the push feed Winchesters!

Again.....I believe folks want customs made from pre-64 Winchesters more out of tradition than anything else. It gives them a warm fuzzy feeling and they like that!

As a DGR rifle the CRF will allow you to short stroke the bolt and retraction of the bolt will eject a loaded round as short stroking a PF will jam the action upon attempting to stroke in another round. This don't seem to cut any mustard with the Sako, Remington, Weatherby, etc crowd however!

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I believe D'Arcy Echols will disagree with you.

Probably not.

As far as I know he builds belted magnums on the classic and your 06 based cartridges on the Pre-64.

Back to the original question. Because the Model 70 receiver looks like and acts like a receiver should.

Does anyone know what the actual bluing method was on those pre-64 receivers, and whether there was a good reason to make the receiver so dull and the barrels polished, unlike today's model 70s where everthing is basically the same?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Does anyone know what the actual bluing method was on those pre-64 receivers, and whether there was a good reason to make the receiver so dull and the barrels polished, unlike today's model 70s where everthing is basically the same?

I'm not aware of what the method was but can tell you that if the metal surface is bead blasted (usually with glass beads) and then blued as a barreled action the finish will take the luster of the substrate. It shouldn't be difficult to reproduce the two tone bluing used on those Winchesters.

I've never tried to reproduce it but actually liked it a lot.

Speaking from the stand point of a DG rifle. The reason CRF is preferred over a push feed Is one tradition and as stated in the second post old traditions die hard. The second one is that a properly built CRF rifle will feed reliably in any position. It's not that a push feed gun won't feed reliably it's that there is a possibility that it may miss feed. The other problem is a spring loaded ejector. That can allow a person to short stroke a bolt chambering an empty chamber. And in reality the ejection system is more to blame then the push feed for the action not being used by DG hunters.
No for the North American continent It's a matter of taste pure and simple.
And I can prove that in a Ruger as they are CRF rifles. Why are they not as popular as a good winchester or remy?? They are considered a cheep action and by some ugly and inaccurate. But Come on it's a CRF. They don't care It's not a Pre64 winchester or a High Grade M98

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It's not that a push feed gun won't feed reliably it's that there is a possibility that it may miss feed.

I would back an inline feed PF for feeding against any CRF including an inline feed CFR. CRF is very reliant on case rim and extractor groove dimensions and condition.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Speaking from the stand point of a DG rifle. for the North American continent It's a matter of taste pure and simple.

I beg to differ as I live in BC and have spent extensive time working and living alone in some of our most remote wilderness regions, as well as having been in the NWT, Yukon and Alaska. I have SEEN Rugers, Remingtons and various other rifles fail in deep bush due to harsh weather and the rough handling they sometimes receive; I have NEVER seen a P-64 fail in over 45 years.

While ANY mechanical device CAN fail, the TRUE CRFs such as Mauser 98s and their closest derivatives, such as P-64s plus the superb Brno 21/22 and ZG-47 series rifles will work when any other rifle has long ceased to function. I base this on having owned well in excess of 100 big game rifles and having seen hundreds of others in action during my working life in the bush and managing a gunshop.

When you live in a backpackable mountain tent for a month at a time, in rain, snow and freezing temps, with no breaks and no heat, you soon discover what works best and what fails soonest. I will no longer own a non-CRF rifle and have total confidence in my P-64s.

An "in-line" type can certainly be very smooth, but, it makes an awkward rifle to have a 4+1 capacity in yoour DGR, as such a mag will hang too far beneath the stock bottonline and thus your rifle is impossible to carry comfortably in one hand....and, in Grizzly country, with a load of meat on your back, THAT is where you WANT it!

Each to his own, but, the old P-64s damm well worked and better than almost any rifles made since then.

I respectfully suggest that in North America, if you can't properly sort out the animal with 2 shots, you're VERY unlikely to get a 3rd; the 3- or 4-down requirement makes my BS meter peg its needle. Africa, maybe, amidst a herd of trucelent big boys, but not bears. If a fellow 'needs' 4+1 then it sounds to me like what he really needs is either more gun or more practice or both.

For pure reliability it's hard to beat a good military rifle. The Mauser is almost unchanged from its military configuration and the M70 is a direct descendent of the 1903 Springfield, so there you are.
Regards, Joe

I doubt that you will find many actual working bushmen in BC or AK or "the Territories" who will agree with you. It seems to me that the P-64 Mod. 70 in .375H&H was especially popular among major Alaskan Brown Bear guides, Hal Waugh, Pinnel and Talifson and so on. I imagine that these men knew what they were about and what worked best.

I can post on several recent attacks by "family groups" of Grizzlies here in BC and these happened to extremely experienced guys, the legendary Jack Turner was one among them. I would consider a large capacity magazine a definite advantage when confronted with a sow and three cubs.

Have you and your ...BS meter... spent a lot of time in Alaskan bear country and any of that alone? How many confrontations have you actually had?

I have never been to Africa, some of my friends are from there and my most frequent hunting partner has lived and hunted there. So, I won't comment on African hunting as I only offer opinions based on my actual experiences.

You're entitled to your opinion of course but IIRC the 375 M70 didn't have 4+1.

And I guess all those DR shooters are really taking a big chance going after all those herds of bears with only a 2-shooter! I'll be sure to tell my friend Henry Chatoney in Haines how dangerous it is to hunt bear herds with only his 500 Nitro double.....
Regards, Joe

The PRE-64 Mod. 70, in .300 H&H and .375H&H certainly DOES hold 4+1, as anyone who owns or has shot one can tell you. I have had about a dozen of these and currently have three and I use mine frequently. The Classic action will only hold 3+1 and since you must carry the same weight with either and the same profile to grip, why not use the one with a larger capacity?

Relatively few of us can afford DRs or drillings in Grizzly calibers, I have one, but, they are heavy and too susceptible to moisture and breaking at the pistol grip in rough mountain use for my taste, while a P-64 .375 in a synthetic stock is about as "bombproof" as it gets.

When I started working on the isolated BC coast 40 years ago, it was VERY hard to get most ammo and you have no facilities for handloading in the bush. When I was in Alaska, and worked alone in the mountains on the BC-AK border, I could find very little ammo. of any type and NO components, this was in '72. When last up there this past Sept., things were a "bit" better, but, not as much as one would like.

You really didn't reply to my query, have YOU been there and how often? Do you own and shoot a Nitro DR and, how fast can you reload as ...herds... of Grizzlies are fairly common on Salmon streams all along the BC coast and into Alaska.

Come here and visit and I will SHOW you what I mean and I think that you might reconsider your opinion afterwards.

At the risk of begging the question, it's because the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 is, as Roger Rule wrote, The Rifleman's Rifle.

I wouldn't take ten Remingtons for one of The Rifleman's Rifle!

Most tend to agree with that sentiment, and for good reason.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I wouldn't take ten Remingtons for one of The Rifleman's Rifle!

Most tend to agree with that sentiment, and for good reason.

Two more pages of the Big bores forum on this subject.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
At the risk of begging the question, it's because the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 is, as Roger Rule wrote, The Rifleman's Rifle.

I wouldn't take ten Remingtons for one of The Rifleman's Rifle!

Most tend to agree with that sentiment, and for good reason.

With all due respect, I have a Pre-64 barreled action here in 30-06 that is in very good condition. I would gladly trade it to you for 10 remington barreled actions in the same very good condition if you want to do that trade. I will even pay the postage.

Okay, you've caught me, I've never killed a bear, never even been to Alaska.

But I, like you, have an opinion that's based upon facts even if not upon my own experiences. I suggest that we continue to disagree.

It's been almost 40 years since I've had to shoot more than one shot at any big-game animal (other than a 22LR finisher to the head), only killed about 50 so far though. Of course the biggest game animals we have down here are feral hogs crossed with 'Russian boars' that weigh only up to 400 lbs or so. They actually DO run in herds.

This idea of being forced to shoot 5 quick shots at bears is one that I'll hafta take under advisement. Seems to me that any sort of decent shot would have 4-5 dead bears on the ground pretty quickly.

And I figure the rest of us would have heard of such a thing, if it had ever happened.

You keep using your pre-64 375 and I'll keep using my Mausers and single shots, OK?

My friend Henry Chatoney moved to up around Haines over 25 yrs ago and has killed most of his 2-3 dozen bears with various single-shot 45-70s, guess the bears in his neck of the woods don't run in herds....
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
This idea of being forced to shoot 5 quick shots at bears is one that I'll hafta take under advisement. Seems to me that any sort of decent shot would have 4-5 dead bears on the ground pretty quickly.

I'll never forget what my guide told me on my first grizzly hunt....

"You need to put the first shot in him, that makes him yours. Then we'll both unload our guns and reload as quickly as possible..................."

Dangerous game is a whole different animal. I'd guess that for 90% of the people on this board you're right you don't need a big game rifle and any ol' push feed'll do. More dangerous ridin around in 4 wheelers in the woods and gettin to/from camp than the actual hunting itself (or for that matter the boss when you get home......)

All it takes is one round that didn't feed (and that occured while huntin deer on my own property) from a custom made push feed to change your mind. Never again.

There is a reason why it's called the Rifleman's Rifle.

When working along the BC coast and visiting in Alaska, over a period of some 40 years, I have encountered large concentrations of Grizzlies on Salmon spawning streams more than once. This would be a dozen or so bears within a half mile of stream and they are usually fairly mellow, but, CAN get ugly real fast and without warning.

I would consider a rifle carried in such circumstances to be a genuine North American "DGR" and have found that, as issued from the factory, the P-64-.375H&H is the least costly, very effective and reliable and easy to carry action/rifle I have used. I have had a Brno 602, a Ruger RSM, a Browning FN-LE and three original and one custom P-64 rifles in .375H&H and the P-64s, overall, have been the most efficient and useful rifles for this use I have ever carried.

It is not my desire, here, to get into a snarky snit about this or any other issue, especially on Christmas. I am simply stating that, as factory issued, these are a VERY fine DGR in North American situations and that is why I use mine instead of the Merkel drilling in 9.3x74R-12x12 I have, or, my Oberndorf Mauser Type B in 9.3x62 or my Brno ZG-47 in 9.3x62 or even my Browning FN-LE in .458WM.

I am NOT trying to say that the P-64 is "perfect", is "best" for all hunting uses or that every hunter must, should or even should want to own/use one; I am simply posting on what I have experienced in over 40 years of using them and many other rifles, as well.

Each to his own, this is simply my opinion and not intended as a slight upon or mockery of any other poster's choices or opinions.I could post details of several recent Grizzly situations here in BC, that involved multiple bears and a single human, but, I think my point is made.

Well I sincerely beg to differ with you BIG bore fans for bear. You do not need a 375 H&H for bear.

All that is required is a .22 pistol....... To shot you buddy in the foot. You don't have to be faster then the bear just faster then the slowest guy.

But in all seriousness Brown bear is the exception and they can be a very dangerous game animal and very dangerous even when not hunting them. You need to understand that bear hunting is like lion hunting in africa it is a select group of people that can do it due to the cost and equipment required. again my comment was a generalization of what is typically hunted in North America. And that would be all varieties of dear and caribou. Which are tame by comparison.

But you did confirm my belief and what I've been taught for many years. When you life is on the line in a DG hunt a push feed has no place.
I hear comments of I'll trade you, I bet you, etc, Well are you willing to bet your LIFE on it! because that is why a CRF is used. when your life is on the line and failure is not an option.
As for magazine capacity anything over three rounds is extra weight.
DR used day in day out in Africa hold two rounds and are considered the standard by which all else is measured.

JDS, for what it is worth I went to Botswana 20 years ago, the only African hunt I will ever make, to my eternal disgrace taking a pushfeed Sako Safari .375 leaving my .375 M70 at home simply because the Sako held 5+1 rather than the 70s 4+1. I had to shoot a buffalo four times, all killing shots, he kept getting up, and I can tell you it was a great relief at the end to realize that I still had two shots left in the magazine.

I have never been to Africa as I have no desire to hunt there, however, I have seen Grizzlies take 3-4 shots to kill and they can be VERY dangerous when wounded.

The weight issue strikes me as a bit odd, in that the two-shot DRs mentioned are considerably heavier than the 4+1 P-64 as supplied by the factory. I have handled and shot a number of British, German, Austrian and Belgian DRs and even in .375H&H, they weighed MORE than my Mod. 70s did/do.

So, I do not see an advantage and while I COULD buy a DR without any problem, I do not see them as an equal hunting rifle or North American DGR, based on my field experience, anyway.

The P-64 with 4+1 capacity is LIGHTER than the Classic with 3+1 and the Dakota with 3+1 and FAR lighter than either the Brno/CZ magnums or the Ruger RSM. I do not know this from reading or listening to secondhand reports from others, I know it from owning and using these rifles as North American DGRs.

But, each of us is free to use whatever he wishes.

After handeling about 14.000 m96 and m98, and later handeling about the same of PF actions, i have come to the conclution, that Murfy's law is pressent.

CRF rifles jams on a regular basis
PF rifles jams a little less, but still regulary.

With a slick PF rifles you can get away 3 rounds for every 2 you fiere from a Mausertype CRF.

One day i almost got beaten up by a tru CRF beliver. For a whole day at a sandy rangearea this guy has been telling about the supiriority of the CRF mauser, and how hopeles a modern PF rifle was if ther came a few grains of sand in them.

I got a little tiered, so i lured him into laying his fully loaded CRF rifle on the ground, with the bolt closed.
I placed my PY rifle the same way next to his rifle.
And before he realized what happend, i tossed 1 handful of fine dirt into the actions of both rifles. Then saying who is the first to get the nest 5 rds away.

I picked my rifle up, turned it upside down, cyckled the bolt, this remooved all of the sand, and i fired the 5 rd from the magszine in about 8 sek.

After 15 min, he vas still trying to get his CRF rifle cleaned out of the sand stuck ewerywhere, including the shit he got into the chamber with the first rd.

To be honnest i realy needed to keep distance to this guy, for the rest of the day.
He was imho more dangerous than the grizzly that would have killed him while he was trying to get his CRF rifle cleaned out

Jagren,
I agree with you. I have owned and shot most of the brands named in this thread. I like all of them and would hunt Africa with any of them. My preference is the new M70 that is coming out of South Carolina. I like the feel and the accuracy.

As to pre-64 or pre-war, my feeling is that it is hype and no big deal. I have owned 6 of these and sold them all as they are loose feeling and not as accurate as my new M70's. I like the M85 Sako as well due to its accuracy.

I will likely never be in a place or situation where a charging lion/elephant/mean beast will be a problem.

As Saeed says, make the first shot count and most of the problem is solved.

Shoot what you shoot the best.

quote:

After handeling about 14.000 m96 and m98, and later handeling about the same of PF actions, i have come to the conclution, that Murfy's law is pressent.

CRF rifles jams on a regular basis
PF rifles jams a little less, but still regulary.

With a slick PF rifles you can get away 3 rounds for every 2 you fiere from a Mausertype CRF.

So jørgen,
Is it true that your company (Schultz & Larsen) is coming out with a lever action 45-70?

My comment on any more then three shots being extra weight was tongue in cheek.

But the fact is a Double rifle in the correct hands can get of four to six rounds off faster then a bolt rifle can empty it's magazine.
But that is here nor there the real advantage to a DR is a follow up shot that is just a trigger pull away. It's that ultra fast follow up shot that is considered so advantageous.

Old IPSC dictum, slightly changed to suit: "You can't miss the stopping zones fast enough to stop the animal!"
Regards, Joe

That is true

A million rounds don't mean a damn thing if you can't hit where your aiming at.