I first read that opinion when I began shooting circa 1958 and in JOC's "Outdoor Life" column and I was fascinated.

Imagine! The steely-eyed hunter, stern of visage and with the panetella sized Nitro rounds firmly clutched between the fingers of his "off hand" stalks the massive Grizzly through the drenching rain and dense alders.

He has both hands occupied clutching his 11 lb. Holland and Holland Modele Deluxe and thus is not very "stable" in the treacherous, moss-covered boulders and fallen logs where he has spotted old "Middendorfi", mighty eater of Salmon roe.

Suddenly, while daydreaming about his last IPSC match in the rugged wilderness of the Southern US, he slips, falls, cannot grasp a stray branch to steady himself and breaks his arm and collarbone...ouch! Leaving his gun, he crawls to the beach and is, fortunately, rescued by a local working bushman, toting a 9 lb. P-64 .375H&H in a synthetic stock and using trekking poles.

The moral of my little tale is, that there is a LOT of fantasy about Grizzlies, appropriate guns for them and IPSC is a game which has SFA to do with what is a North American DGR.

I seriously doubt that most if any riflemen can get off four CAREFULLY AIMED shots from a double or drilling of equal chambering, weight, sights and so forth ANY faster or AS fast as they could from a bolt rifle. I certainly couldn't and I own and shoot both types regularly as well as others.

TWO shots, yes, no question, however, the very different balance of major caliber DRs to that of bolt rifles would tend to make even that questionable. I have shot a LOT of different large bore rifles and for quite some time and I cannot shoot a DR as well as a bolt, due largely to familiarity.

Maybe I am wrong, but, I would like to see a man shoot FOUR AIMED shots more rapidly with a DR than an equally experienced one could with his bolt rifle.

Oh, the Modele Deluxe in my scenario, it snapped at the comb nose and is now at Champlin's for a few months, while Mr.P, repairs it. The Grizzly fell to a two shot "burst" from the worn P-64 as so many have and the local saved the dude's ass, but, that is for another day.

BTW, do either or both of you gentlemen own and use double or drillings in major chamberings? I do and I do not see them as practical a NA-DGR as a P-64-.375.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
The moral of my little tale is, that there is a LOT of fantasy about Grizzlies, appropriate guns for them and IPSC is a game which has SFA to do with what is a North American DGR.

The moral of MY little tale is that a fellow doesn't need more than 2 shots (actually 1) IF he can shoot straight. I never said anything about drillings or speed of successive shots, if the first one is placed properly then the subsequent shots aren't needed.

I'm not really interested in how quickly I can get off the fourth shot 'cause I figure that's probably too late since I OBVIOUSLY must have missed with the first 3!

Hosea Sarber and Walter Bell and Grancel Fitz repeatedly proved the truth of that little IPSC dictum about ~50-100 years ago and it still applies just as much today. As Gomer Pyle used to say, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[So jørgen,
Is it true that your company is coming out with a lever action 45-70?

Absolute NO, This would ruin all illutions about the old Mauser CRF tractors. I guess it would be like racing a Formula 1 (lever) against an farmtractor (M98)

But on the other hand, i have heard something about, that the best you can doo when attacked by a bear, is play dead. The Bear might misunderstand the speed of a CRF cycle, as if someone is playing dead

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
The moral of my little tale is, that there is a LOT of fantasy about Grizzlies, appropriate guns for them and IPSC is a game which has SFA to do with what is a North American DGR.

The moral of MY little tale is that a fellow doesn't need more than 2 shots (actually 1) IF he can shoot straight. I never said anything about drillings or speed of successive shots, if the first one is placed properly then the subsequent shots aren't needed.

I'm not really interested in how quickly I can get off the fourth shot 'cause I figure that's probably too late since I OBVIOUSLY must have missed with the first 3!

Hosea Sarber and Walter Bell and Grancel Fitz repeatedly proved the truth of that little IPSC dictum about ~50-100 years ago and it still applies just as much today. As Gomer Pyle used to say, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"
Regards, Joe

Hosea Sarber, would shoot many of his bears from a tower where they could not reach him in the event of a miss, a wounded and enraged bear attacking him or a failure of a bullet, quite commonplace in his era. His main client and supplier of some of his rifles, Dr. Smith, actually used a P-64 Mod. 70-.375H&H custom built by Thom Shelhammer and Sarber also used this rifle, which I have held in my hands and had the opportunity to buy in 1982. Sarber disappeared and it could have been a bear that did him in, however, he did not use a double rifle of any type, nor kill every bear he shot with a single bullet.

Grancel Fitz, used a Griffin& Howe .30-06 on an Enfield P-17 action; this is a CRF action very much like the Pre-64, except heavier and the ejectors tend to break quite easily. I sold the .338WM on that action I had as it is hard to obtain these when working in remote regions and the "fleur-de-lis" checkered stock was being beaten too badly in the coastal bush, rain and rocks.

Walter. D.M. Bell, was in the Yukon with a singleshot rifle by the immortal Scots maker, Daniel Fraser, and then in "darkest A". Now, HE went to Mauser and Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles as soon as he could and used a Lee-Enfield and other SS rifles, as well. The ironic aspect of your comments is that, in his own accounts of his shooting Elephants he states that he LOST about 25% of his game due to WOUNDS and I hardly consider that acceptable today.

Bell, was a controversial figure in his day and while he was, without question, a superb rifleman, he DID NOT KILL his game with a single shot each. If, you doubt this, fine, read his autobiography and it is there in simple English.

The most ironic aspect of your comments is that, Bell, RECOMMENDED a certain rifle in his articles in the "American Rifleman" as being what he considered the best choice for Africa, etc., if he were returning at the time he wrote, just before his death. This rifle WAS the PRE-64 MODEL 70 WINCHESTER.....read what HE WROTE and see for yourself.

You now post that you ...never said anthing about...speed of successive shots..., well, ,re-read your previous posts on how DRs are faster for four...etc.; you seem to be arguing merely to argue and forget your posts as soon as you make them.

I don't know what some gay TV actor has to do with rifles, Grizzlies or reality, but, the game of IPSC seems to include "double taps" to the "center of mass" and not only single shots, at least the competitions I witnessed. So, I question your comparison here.

You are, simply wrong about how many shots are needed to prevent a Grizzly getting to you and your rather snarky tone, totally uncalled for, does not hide the fact that these animals and other dangerous game sometimes will attack and injure a person after receiving lethal wounds from a heavy caliber rifle. I have seen a bear take three bullets in the center chest before falling and dying and this was from a .300Win. so, unless you are such a fabulous shot that you can "brain" him every time, I suggest that your point is more fantasy than field reality.

Maybe less TV and more time in places like BC, Alaska and some real experience, before making snide comments about something you have zero personal experience of?

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[So jørgen,
Is it true that your company is coming out with a lever action 45-70?

Absolute NO, This would ruin all illutions about the old Mauser CRF tractors. I guess it would be like racing a Formula 1 (lever) against an farmtractor (M98)

But on the other hand, i have heard something about, that the best you can doo when attacked by a bear, is play dead. The Bear might misunderstand the speed of a CRF cycle, as if someone is playing dead

This is a false myth and is usually spread by those from urban areas who have no personal experience of bears. Here in BC, where rifles are a working tool that are used harshly and often not "cleaned" frequently, you will see most experienced guys using some form of Mauser-type rifle, a .30-06, .300 Mag., .338WM or .375H&H. These are available and work well for both hunting and defence, a need which happens quite often.

When I started, we all wanted the "highend" rifles and many of my buddies bought various rifles to try, as I did. We comnpared these at night in tent camps and "bughouses" and we found that some would consistently work better than others.

The Pre-64 Mod. 70 was the MOST utilitarian and reliable rifle, then the FN sporter and the Husqvarnas on FN actions. The Browning Safaris were good, but, the "pot metal" of the t-g assembly was fragile and the ejector system was also a concern. We loved the light HVA sporters, except the stocks broke at the grip and we had no epoxy bedding to use when in northern BC bush camps.

Quite a number of guys bought these nicely finished, rear-locking rifles from old Europe, the Schultz&Larsen, but, almost all of them would fail under BC conditions and quickly. They were and still are commonplace on the used racks here and you never see them in working bush camps, where Pre-64s are still eagerly sought after, used and prized for the wonderful tools that they are.

Real field experience trumps marketin bullshit every time and you will not find many users of P-64s, under field conditions involving dangerous game, that have anything bad to say about them.

I never could get my old H&H 500/450 Magnum double to regulate closer than about 4" @ 50 yds, even tried some Kynoch 480-gr solids and #172 primers with no joy. Too bad but understandable, the left bore is worn badly.

OTOH my 1886 Win 45-70 7.5-lb carbine will shoot into 2" @ 100 yds. Yawn and ho-hum you might say until I explain that this is with the 535-gr Lyman 457125 moving along at a respectablly brisk (but by no means maximum) chronographed 1730 fps. Yes, that's a 535 at over 1700 fps. The 457125 Government bullet cast of wheelweights will shoot a ~1/2" hole clean thru anything on the NA continent and the same bullet cast of pure lead will, guess what, also shoot thru ALMOST anything and leave a half-dollar-sized hole behind. The Lee bullets are even more impressive on game but I don't have a mould.

You wanta compare relative speed of aimed successive shots? It's pretty much BS IMO as stated above, but my '86 has 5 (or 6, depending upon seating) +1 that can be spat out as fast as you can recover from recoil.

About twice as fast as any bolt rifle, for what little THAT'S worth!

Don't get me wrong, I've owned several 375s and liked almost all of them, it's a great chambering and the M70 is as good as most bolt rifles. I just never saw the necessity of having more than 2-3 shots available.

Kinda reminds me of the FBI mindset prior to the 1985 Miami Massacre, when they all thought that firepower was the answer so everyone had lots of high-cap mags. Fired over 100 shots with NONE being stoppers, got some officers killed for nothing because of their spray-&-pray performance.
Regards, Joe

JD,

rumors abound about Hosea Farbee. Whatever happened to him?

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I don't know what some gay TV actor has to do with rifles, Grizzlies or reality, ?

Where did THAT come from? You musta been fantasizing......

Unlike you, I'm not denigrating YOUR choice of rifles. I hope you continue to have good luck with your M70 for many years to come, it's a perfectly adequate choice and has a splendid rep.

But don't criticize the rest of us if we don't agree that it's the ONLY proper choice. You sound a little strident, to say the least.
Regards, Joe

You mentioned ...Gomer Pyle..., who was played by one "Jim Nabors" and he was gay, hence, my comment.

I have NEVER stated that the P-64 was or is ...the ONLY proper choice..., in fact, I posted comments to the contrary.

I might get back to this tonight, I have a basement floor under repair that I need to get on with this morning.