http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100083906

There must be very few rifles that have shown the appreciation of the Pre 64 375s and especially the Supergrades.

In answer to your heading, No.

Doubtful, because the first thing needed is for Ruger to offer just one action length bolt rifle, in push feed, with press checkering on a birch stock. Then continue F'ed up ideas for 50 more years and ultimately become a foreign owned importer of Japanese rifles and struggle to regain its reputation. Not likely.

The irony is that pre64 M70 rifle is no better, feature for feature than what is expected from the NC Winchesters.

A Winchester for $8500! Somebody must be smoking to much crack.

I sort of agree with four bore on his last sentence. I have pre 64 mod 70's and New Haven mod 70's.
I would like a gunsmith to tell me the advantages of the pre 64 action over a newer mod 70 CRF.
I believe the pre 64 rifles may have had button rifling where as the newer models are hammer forged although I did have someone at Winchester tell me years back that their stainless barrels were button rifled.
The action is what I am most interested in and why such a great interest in it over one made today?

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
A Winchester for $8500! Somebody must be smoking to much crack.

Nice are not, I'm with you Dave.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
A Winchester for $8500! Somebody must be smoking to much crack.

My thoughts exactly. Of course someone can advertise a 375 Ruger for $8500 but will it sell? My guess is that it will not just like this winchester.

Never did get the whole "pre-64" thing, or Winchester itself for that matter. I grew up in the 60s and 70s from a gun standpoint, and always found Winchester wanting for accuracy and quality. Maybe in the pre-war days they might have had a leg up on others out there in the American market, but I think Winchester's best days ended when US hunters moved from Lever guns to bolts after WW 1. Just my 2 cents...give me a Magnum Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by David Culpepper:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
A Winchester for $8500! Somebody must be smoking to much crack.

My thoughts exactly. Of course someone can advertise a 375 Ruger for $8500 but will it sell? My guess is that it will not just like this winchester.

There are plenty of others at big money.

Here is a 458 pre 64

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100102140

But I wonder just how many are selling at these advertised prices? I can understand one that has been customized selling for higher prices but not ones straight out of the box.

quote:

Originally posted by David Culpepper:
But I wonder just how many are selling at these advertised prices? I can understand one that has been customized selling for higher prices but not ones straight out of the box.

Pre 64s in 375, even the standard rifle have been worth big money for a long time. If you customised a mint condition Supergrage 375 it would lose value.

But actually the Post 64 action is a longer action and more suitable for 375.

A Duane Wiebe M70 in 375 Wby. Be interesting to see what the price would be if it was an H&H

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100075911

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Doubtful, because the first thing needed is for Ruger to offer just one action length bolt rifle, in push feed, with press checkering on a birch stock. Then continue F'ed up ideas for 50 more years and ultimately become a foreign owned importer of Japanese rifles and struggle to regain its reputation. Not likely.

The irony is that pre64 M70 rifle is no better, feature for feature than what is expected from the NC Winchesters.

X-2

There are legions of Winchester collectors out there.

What they will pay for a pristine model - including a pristine Model 70, and especially one in a relatively rare caliber - is pretty amazing sometimes.

Rugers - especially the rifles - don't seem to have the same appeal to collectors as other, more historic brands, such as Winchester and Colt.

There is a pre 64 Mod 70 super grade (375 H&H) over at Cabelas in Fort Worth in very good shape. I believe they are asking about $5,200.00 for it. Pretty steep!

A friend I hunt with...his bud just bought the 375 Wby by Duane Wiebe...about $1,000 off listed price. Nice rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
The irony is that pre64 M70 rifle is no better, feature for feature than what is expected from the NC Winchesters.

Except maybe one. Has Winchester returned to the forged one piece bolt on the newest interation of the M70?

I agree with the crack analogy....$8500 for a Win 70, Supergrade or not, is horse $hit. I have a post 64 mod 70 action in stainless that is as good as anything that came out pre-64...and mine was made in the 90's.
Sad thing....someone will buy it for that.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

There is a pre-64 .375 H&H at Cabelas Dundee for I believe $3800 in about the same condition. I don't think it's a supergrade though. I love rifles but have yet to see a Pre-64 that overwhelmed me to the point of paying an outrageous premium for. There is a pre-64 that is not beat but well used in .308 Norma (rechamber) at one of my local haunts and they want something like $1500 for it. If it was a BDL in the same shape it would be $400. Just my 2 cents.

For a 3 down factory rifle I would rather have a Browning Safari (CRF). Probably cost you about $2,500.00 max for a very nice unit.

EZ

quote:

For a 3 down factory rifle I would rather have a Browning Safari (CRF). Probably cost you about $2,500.00 max for a very nice unit.

If you are talking value, that money will get you two new Winchesters a 375 and 458 pair.

I have and have had both Browning FN Safaris and P-64 Mod. 70s in various chamberings since June, 1967. The P-64-.375 H&H, .338WM and .300H&H rifles, as they came from the factory, are much superior to the Brownings.

These and the P-64 Fwts. in .270W and .30-06 are THE BEST production hunting rifles EVER made in America and only European built Brno 21/22 and ZG-47 rifles plus the early FN sporters are superior.

I have had many purpose-built "Grizzly" rifles and can have anything I want, my final choice is a Classic sts barrel on a P-64 action, in a Micky "MC style" stock, Recknagels, Leuypy QRWs, Gun-Koted and 20" bbl. Shoots 300 NPs into .7", handles like a fine sxs and is easy to work on in the bush.

If, you think that the prices for pristine, rare Mod. 70 SGs are high, look at what suckers pay for English junk from th '50s, worn bores, terrible stocks and cheap. salvaged Mauser 98 std. actions....crappy rifles and still sell for HUGE bux!

The new Mod 70 is NOT as good a field rifle as the P-64 and few other rifles are or ever have been. What other rifle gives you a trim, accurate FIVE-shot .375H that you can pack all day while running forestry crews in steep mountains....none.

Question for those more knowlegeable on Pre 64's.

I have only seen a few of them in 375H&H and 300H&H and a couple of them had cracked stocks with one having had Cross bolts installed (not sure if they were original or not).

Is cracking of Pre 64's a known problem because of the lack of cross bolts ?

Any other thoughts or info would be appreciated on this.

Dewey,

I posted this same question on the gun smithing forum. What makes a pre 64 better than a New haven offering? I have two Pre 64's (270 Feather weight and a 300 H&H) that shoot very well but so do my New Haven guns. What makes the pre 64 better? With a little tuning all of my mod 70's (9 of them) work flawlessly.

EZ

I doubt there is a ruger today that would sell used for $850, let alone add another zero to it. For those of you that Pooh-Pooh the Old Model 70, show me another American-made bolt rifle that has retained it's value, let alone appreciated so much.

The reason Winchester can sell the NM is because it is pretty much a P64. You guys should save money and buy PF Remingtons. Boy there's a nice long term investment for you...

Sour grapes by those who failed to buy them when clean ones in any caliber were under a thousand dollars?

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Dewey,

I posted this same question on the gun smithing forum. What makes a pre 64 better than a New haven offering? I have two Pre 64's (270 Feather weight and a 300 H&H) that shoot very well but so do my New Haven guns. What makes the pre 64 better? With a little tuning all of my mod 70's (9 of them) work flawlessly.

EZ

Nothing, other than they are easier to machine (and make look pretty). The mod 70 classic actions are made from CroMoly steel, and have gas handling capabilities. One could argue that the added anti-bind rail in the classic action is a hinderance as they sometimes bend, but I haven't actually seen one hiccup and therefore reserve jufgement. In my opinion, the classic is a better rifle than the real Pre-64's. But I have oft spoke blasphemously.

Now we are entering the third generation of CRF winchesters, and from all reports, they are well made and accurate. We shall see.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I doubt there is a ruger today that would sell used for $850, let alone add another zero to it. For those of you that Pooh-Pooh the Old Model 70, show me another American-made bolt rifle that has retained it's value, let alone appreciated so much.

The reason Winchester can sell the NM is because it is pretty much a P64. You guys should save money and buy PF Remingtons. Boy there's a nice long term investment for you...

Sour grapes by those who failed to buy them when clean ones in any caliber were under a thousand dollars?

Rich

Rich, I wouldn't give you $1,000 for a pre-64 today! It is the single most overrated gun in history. Hell, the new ones are better. I have never had a pre-64 because I would never pay the inflated prices that some guys seem ready to pay but hey, it's a free world, if you want to shell out the money, be my guest. I had a bunch of Winchesters and for the most part, they were all crap. I had a Model 70 stainless in .375 H&H and the first time I opened the floor plate the follower fell out on the ground. Although I find the Ruger action not very attractive, the MKII is a much better gun. Just my humble opinion.

Over the years I've owned about 4 pre-64 mod. 70's. One was a super grade. None shot the way i wanted them to, so they all found a new home. I have to agree with the over rated statement.

Maybe its just me, but I would rather spend $800 on a rifle, another $800 getting it tuned, and go hunt something with the rest of the money. I have been known to oversimplify things though.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
A Duane Wiebe M70 in 375 Wby. Be interesting to see what the price would be if it was an H&H

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100075911

I've been eying that Wiebe lefty for months

I'd rather pay for that, than ANY factory rifle, I dont care how old it is!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
A Duane Wiebe M70 in 375 Wby. Be interesting to see what the price would be if it was an H&H

$20k

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
A Duane Wiebe M70 in 375 Wby. Be interesting to see what the price would be if it was an H&H

$20k

I don't know if it would that be that much but I think there would be close to 100% agreement that it would be worth a fair bit more. And of course that is totally illogical.

But the same thinking is why a Pre 64 Supergrade in 375 is big money.

quote:

I don't know if it would that be that much but I think there would be close to 100% agreement that it would be worth a fair bit more. And of course that is totally illogical.

It makes sense to me, a 375 wby is an oddball, while the 375HH is a standard. I would not buy a 375 wby any more than I would want a 375 Ruger. Nothing for/against a person owning either, but you should not be surprised (IMHO) to see lower demand for less popular rounds.

The Colt Single Action Army probably tops the list of appreciation of all firearms. The Ruger RSM will show solid appreciation. Custom rifles are valued by the name of the maker and the action used which is why buying a CZ and working it over to be reliable is a money loser. The M70 Classic made in CT is the best of the M70's. The Pre-64 (1936-1963) became famous because of the instant action change in 1964 - the biggest blunder in firearms history.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
A Duane Wiebe M70 in 375 Wby. Be interesting to see what the price would be if it was an H&H

$20k

I don't know if it would that be that much but I think there would be close to 100% agreement that it would be worth a fair bit more. And of course that is totally illogical.

But the same thinking is why a Pre 64 Supergrade in 375 is big money.

Well Mike, I have sold a couple of Holland rifles in 375H&H
and know of one that was a very nice gun like this one - top wood, cased etc etc that went for over $20k.

If that was an H&H gun, it would almost certainly be cased and I would have no problem getting $20k for it.

There is a comment by Bill Leeper concerning the P-64, primarily the action features, on the "Gunsmithing" section, that gives details as to why the P-64 is superior to other Mod- 70s. I agree with his opinions and would add that instant, easy parts interchange, stout well-fitted and functional parts and extreme reliability are other major aspects of the P-64, which I have found in my 40+ years of intense use of them.

The ten original P-64 rifles, out of the 40 I have had, which I have chosen to keep, make up one third of the total big game rifles I have kept out of well over 100 I have owned since 1965. I have never had a mechanical problem with a P-64, not once, mine have all been accurate, with the Std. .270s, the .300H&Hs and, my five .338WMs shooting "bugholes". This was/is with HUNTING ammo, not specially "tuned" SMK target stuff.

They certainly have their flaws, but, they are among the most useful, reliable, accurate and "bush functional" rifles I have ever used and that includes a very wide variety. The WORST rifles, I have ever had or used, dollar for dollar, are the ridiculously over-priced "name" English ones and the Holland .375H&H I shot would not touch any of the three P-64-.375s I had at the time and only held 4+1.

This was about 20 years ago, my P-64s were about $1500.00 at that time, the Holland was $8K and I was carrying a .375 every day at work in the Canadian Rockies....what did I carry, sure as hell not that ridiculous Limey rifle!

But, the detractors can say what they want, they probably shoot and carry Tikka T3s.

Guys, let's face it. The Pre-64 got cult status when they did away with the old gun and introduced the push feed gun. I say if you want one, go for it but let's not pretend that it is the equal in quality and price of a truly custom gun.

Most of you are missing the point. Its a pristine pre-64 SUPERGRADE in a relatively rare caliber. Thats a collectable gun, not a SHOOTER. Personally that price is a little steep as I'd estimate it at $6,000, but if it is unfired in the original box and with all the papers and tags well $8,000 is a possibility. You think this is expensive? Try collecting Lugers, Colts or REAL US MILITARY COMBAT SHOTGUNS. I was just shown a original, pristine Fat barrel American eagle luger for a mere $15,000. A nice REAL cartridge counter Luger goes for $50K or so. Borchardts for $75K. Trust me the economic downturn had no major effect on collectable guns period! Although a lot of guys who needed money sold some fabulous stuff way too cheaply. It was a buyers market! Remember all that money you lost from your 401K's? You would have been wise to have put ALL of IT in collectable guns. That pre-64 win will appreciate in value well past $8500 in 5 years. You'll be lucky to get $600 in that same timeframe for your RSM. Oh yes, those fabulous customs from the great makers, you'll be lucky to lose just 50%.of what you paid for it.BTW if you invested your money in registered,licensed machineguns, you would have seen your money grow by about 300% in the last 5 years.-Rob

I have had, in my hands, gorgeous custom rifles, by famous makers that would NOT do what my favourite P-64 Alaskan .338WM has done since I bought it, unfired, from a retired dealer in my hometown, at age 21. P-64s were WORKING rifles and were and are very popular among those who use a rifle for work where Grizzlies and Lions are a regular "feature" of one's day.

If, given a choice to use ONLY my gorgeous Dakota 76-.338WM or one of the Alaskans in .338WM I have, especially my first one and favourite, based on simple, rugged reliability, I would choose the P-64, hands-down. This is based on USING these rifles for many years in BC.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

Well Mike, I have sold a couple of Holland rifles in 375H&H
and know of one that was a very nice gun like this one - top wood, cased etc etc that went for over $20k.

If that was an H&H gun, it would almost certainly be cased and I would have no problem getting $20k for it.

I meant if that rifle was chambered in 375 H&H instead of 375 Wby