Hello Mr. Belk,

I saw that the media quoted you as having noticed the Rem 700 safety issue back in 1969.

I noticed it in 1973. I was loading a rem 600 to go deer hunting. I loaded the mag, dropped one in the chamber and closed the bolt. As the bolt fully closed, the gun want BANG! and shot a woodpile. The gun was completely un-modified and factory original. I shipped it to Remington and they sent it back again. It had a gold-colored trigger when it went to Rem and a black trigger when it returned. There was no invoice or work order stating what Remington had done to the rifle. The new trigger had a harder pull than the old one. I have had no problems with the rifle since then, but I am still afraid of it.

I also had the same thing happen with a Beretta .410 single barrel shotgun - close the action and it went POW! A gunsmith fixed it and now it has a 20 pound trigger pull.

550grains---

The design flaw has been present since 1948 and it's STILL there.

As long as it has a two piece "trigger" there's always the possibility of firing when the bolt is closed (FBC), fire on bolt opening (FBO), and fire on safety release (FSR). The latter is by far the most common.

Let me know if you want a more complete description and I can email it or repost it.

Jack,

I have three Remington rifles (M700, M721 & M40XB).

I would like to read your description of the problem. I have not experienced it to date, thank you Lord.

jim dodd

So it sounds like the new trigger that Reminton installed in my model 600 will not solve the problem.

Is there a fix that will completely elminate the problem?

Perhaps more to the point, what is the fix?

Will replacing it with an aftermarket trigger such as Rifle Basix fix the Rem 600 issue?

Thank you.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

CBS News story with interview with Jack Belk.

CBS News

Regards,

Terry

Tragic - in more ways than one. In no place in the article is it mentioned that the rifle must have been pointed at or near the son for him to have been killed.

Jack is this specificaly a remington trigger issue or side safeties (a la Mark X etc) in general?

Repost by request---

The “Walker System trigger” is an override sear system much like the Sako, Timney, Canjar, Dayton Traister and others.

That means the cocking piece is putting downward pressure on a sear that is pivoted (at the front on a Remington). This sear holds the cocking piece/firing pin to the rear by resting on the upper portion of the trigger.

The trigger is pivoted right in the middle. As the trigger is pulled to the rear the top of it goes forward and slips from beneath the sear which allows the sear to fall and let the cocking piece and firing pin go forward to fire the rifle.

This is a common system and works well …….EXCEPT that Remington added another part. Its called a “Connector”. The connector is a small stamped piece of metal that wraps over the top of the trigger. It is this connector INSTEAD of the trigger that holds up the sear.

The safety lever is pivoted to the trigger housing and acts by slightly lifting the sear at the back when engaged. This raises the sear off the connector when its on safe. When the safety is released the sear comes back down to rest on the connector and ready for a pull of the trigger to fire the rifle.

The problem is that the connector is NOT attached to the trigger. It depends on the trigger return spring to push it back into the proper position for each shot. That means if the connector, for any reason, becomes dislodged while the rifle is on safe there is NOTHING to catch the sear when the safety is released. It’s called FSR. Fire on Safety Release.

Remember that at EVERY shot the connector is forced forward away from the trigger. That means any amount of debris that gets caught between the connector and the trigger then REDUCES the amount of contact between the connector and the sear. The trigger is enclosed which means it catches all kinds of gunk and the possibility of failure is increased as dirt accumulates.

On rifles made before 1982 the safety also locks the bolt down. That means in order to unload these rifles you FIRST have to take it off safe. IF the connector is not in the right place…and you cant tell if it is or not. Its hidden and out of your control, totally….the rifle fires when you are only trying to unload it. That’s happened MANY times.

For those that say, “The rifle should be pointed in a safe direction ALL THE TIME”. Where is that direction? Pointed downward had cost several feet and legs and at least one dog hit by a ricochet. Pointed up had killed at least two people…….pointed out has killed and injured even more. If you don’t know when the rifle *might* fire, there IS NO SAFE direction to point it.

The solution is to replace the Remington trigger with one of the many after market triggers that use a SOLID trigger and NO connector.

The problem was recognized by Remington more than 50 years ago and alternate designs have been made but never used.

I've re-edited my post because Mr Belk posted at the same time I did. See post below!

jpb

[ 03-12-2003, 20:27: Message edited by: jpb ]

Jack, thanks for the very illuminating detail of the Remington trigger hazard. I agree with you that there is no such thing as pointing a gun a safe direction if you don't know when it might discharge.

As incredible as it may seem, it is cheaper for Remington to kill and maim people than to fix its trigger. With all the hype corporate America puts out about the "lawsuit crisis", this seems incongruent, but it is obviously true.

Now, under the able leadership of a more-than-usually money-sensitive Congress, there is a proposal floating to limit medical malpractice claims to $250,000. Sounds reasonable, until you realize that if some incompentant surgeon leaves a sponge in your guts during an apendectomy, that the cost of PROVING his error will exceed the maximum $250,000 recovery, therefore your survivors will be out in the cold, you'll be six feet under, and the butcher will be enjoying a rich and rewarding lifestyle without fear of finacial responsibility for his incompentence. And you think your insurance premiums are going to go down? Grow up.

Mr Belk:

In his post above, JBelk said "The solution is to replace the Remington trigger with one of the many after market triggers that use a SOLID trigger and NO connector. "

Could you let me know which is of these triggers is of the preferred type? Shilen, Timney, Rifle Basix, Canjar, Jewel, JARD, any others? It isn't easy to determine this information from any of these companies web sites!

The JARD is one I have been able to find out little about but looks interesting. You can see it at
JARD trigger at Brownells

I really would like to hear your expert opinion! If I am going to replace my trigger, I might as well try to get the safest one available.

jpb

[ 03-12-2003, 20:28: Message edited by: jpb ]

Stonecreek,

The articles I have read on the medical malpractice limit say it is on something termed "pain and suffering", not on the actual damages and their consequences. We have had such in California for over 20 years, and it doesn't seem to have crimped people here or their lawyers (the lawyers would have changed the law here if so).

Jack, I have a Canjar on one Rem, and another after-arket unit on the other so I hope they are "good units". I am going to sell the M40X action anyway.

jim dodd

I did not know about this. I had got into a "discussion" about or with Belk and it was pointed out that he had know about some Remington defect going way back. I assumed it was the safety as that is also a major problem. The old 721/2 safeties would not lock the trigger if you unloaded the rifle let alone lock the firing pin! Not only that but many of these rifles have no floor plate.

Ruskin is quoted as saying that "The most expensive thing that you can buy is something that fails to do the job you got it for". The ill designed Remington 721/2 and 700 series are cheap. They are unsuitable for a base for a hunting rifle period!

Savage 99 said--

quote:

---

The old 721/2 safeties would not lock the trigger if you unloaded the rifle let alone lock the firing pin! Not only that but many of these rifles have no floor plate.

---

No they don't lock the trigger. Neither does a M-98, M-70, BRNO/CZ, and many others.

The Remington safety DOES lock the firing pin. That's how they work. The safety lifts the sear which is jammed against the cocking piece which is pinned to the firing pin.

You're right the 722/721s don't have a floorplate. That's pretty easy to see.

As far as I know there are no other triggers for the Remington rifles, or any other rifle, that has a separate connector.

The price of aftermarket triggers are a reflection of materials, processes and workmanship.......I have a previous post on that, also. Just holler if you want to see it again.

I have always strongly favored guns with bolt mounted safeties. While it is true some trigger mounted safties block the firing pin, this is only true when the gun is in battery. When you cycle the bolt, as mentioned above in another context, you don't know what that position is and if it is functional. If it doesn't catch as you close the bolt, you could have a slam fire.

With the lowly mauser, the cocking piece/firing pin is held back by a heavy metal lock which you can visually confirm. With the safety in place and functional, nothing can make the firing pin impact the primer with the exception of a major metal failure. This doesn't mean it can't fire when taking off safe, but as long as the safety is engaged, it is absolutely safe. For that reason, I believe the bolt mounted safeties are much better.

Jack,

Sorry that I don't even have a 721/2 here to look at. It's been thirty years or so since I had one.

I just recall that the 721/2 safety locked the bolt from opening. How can you empty the magazine on such ADL rifles?

Again I don't have one here to check. Thank goodness!

I also have a 700 adl from 80's. It also dropped the pin when I closed the bolt, Thank God it was not loaded!

Savage 99---

All the 600/700 series rifles prior to 1982 have a bolt lock leg on the safety lever. Go to Remington's site and you'll see they will fix that for $20........or you can do it yourself with a benchgrinder in less than 10 minutes.

One of the BIG gripes against push feed actions is that they must be put into an unsafe condition to unload them IF the safety acts on the trigger only. That's why I prefer CFR actions with three position safeties. They are, by definition, safer to use.

Reposted because mho wanted it.

___________________________________________

Triggers are simple levers, springs and plungers.......but MUST me made *right* to be good.

Here's what you're looking for--

Design----With a few exceptions the design is tried and true and engineered to within a fraction of a thousandths of an inch. The geometry is figured to give the best combination of engagement and security coupled with return springs and stop screws to offer adjustments. The design is CRITICAL! Never stone, polish or buff ANY trigger part.

Fit---- The parts of a trigger should be stable in lateral movement. Since triggers work on pure geometry, the parts have to mate together the same every time. If the cross pin holes are too big, or the pins too small, or the parts hole is of the wrong size, or the housing holes out of alignment, or maybe the housing is flimsy or the interior not parallel……any of these things or combinations of these and more, affect the quality and safety.

Finish--- Triggers have three frictional surfaces. The sear and trigger surfaces MUST be FLAT and smooth. Friction between these surfaces is what secures the trigger and the sear.

The frictional area that gives the most trouble is the area on both sides of the internal trigger parts. In enclosed housing trigger mechanisms this area includes all of the trigger and sear. On “open” designs, like the M-70 it’s only that portion of the parts enclosed by the receiver.

The third area is the pivot holes in the parts. A trigger can’t be smooth and repeatable if the pivots are rough.

Material----- Triggers and sears and cocking piece/safety parts have to be made from a material that resist galling, smearing, AND chipping and flaking on sharp edges. That means triggers and sears should be of steel and heat-treated for greatest security and long life.

A good trigger is of heat treated steel with a machined steel housing, having reamed and lapped holes, friction pads or bosses around the holes of internal parts, and lapped searing surfaces. They’re pretty scarce and usually expensive. It takes good machines, good steel perfectly finished and heat-treated to make a trigger that’s safe, crisp, long wearing, and repeatable in feel and pull. Fortunately, they are now more available than ever.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of junky triggers being made, too.
____________________________________________________

Mr. Belk,

Would any of the 3-position safeties made for the M700 (David Gentry, NECG, others?) do anything to solve, or even put a dent in, the safety/trigger issues with these rifles?

TIA,
stillinschool

Mr. Belk,

Just read your last post...

What are some of the better aftermarket triggers in your opinion? Forget about the the fact that it might be going into an M700...

TIA,
stillinschool

Stillinschool---

quote:

---

Would any of the 3-position safeties made for the M700 (David Gentry, NECG, others?) do anything to solve, or even put a dent in, the safety/trigger issues with these rifles?

---

Yes. All of them allow the bolt to be cycled in a safe position. That's a tremendous improvement over the pre-82 rifles, but they do nothing whatever for the basic flaw which is the extra, uncontrolled, and unseen part inside the trigger that causes the problem to start with.

The three position safeties DO improve the safety features of the guns but don't solve the basic problem. The trigger must be changed to do that.

Okay, now you all have me scared to pull my 600 out of the closet! I've looked for a 'drop-in' trigger replacement but have had no luck. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

I am new to this forum and do not wish to sound like I am on a soapbox or that I believe that I am any better or smarter than anyone else posting here but I must take exception to comments posted here by Jbelk and Stonecreek. I am certain that both men live gun safety on a daily basis (as we all should) but I am certain that their comments about not being able to point a gun in a safe direction when you don't know if it is going to go off are not accurate.In virtually any situation there is in fact a safe direction available IF the shooter is paying attention. It is harder to stay "on" and focused all the time but it is possible. In some situations it may not be possible to guarantee a perfectly safe choice but there will always be a least bad option. The incidents of ricochets to the foot,leg or dog may well have been preventable or may have been the least dangerous choice, after all any of the above are better than one to the chest!In any hypothetical situation where there is NO safe direction why was the gun loaded in the first place? If there is no safe direction right here then--move. In any situation there is always an opportunity to choose to do things the safest way possible.
I post this not to correct the other posts but to suggest that there are many people reading these posts who may not have a lifetimes experience to take these comments in context.
These comments could be an excuse for a beginner to be less careful since "it can't be helped, it's just one of those things,I read that sometimes there is no safe direction, or whatever they think they remember from reading these comments". Shooters with a tendency to carelessness do not need another excuse. We experienced shooters have a responsibility to promote gun safety as the first second and third responsibilities of gun ownership.
I teach gun safety to non-shooters almost every weekend and I am apalled at how they can take things out of context, how much misinformation is out there and how uncommon "common sense" actually is.

Enough of this rant.

By the way I am really happy that my MRC's won't have this problem.
Respectfully
Guy Morrison

I have installed a Timney trigger and a Gentry 3 position saftey on my 700 Does that solve the problem?

Smallcal,

I understand that Rifle Basix makes a trigger for Rem 600's.
I have heard positive feedback, and will put one on mine when it is back from re-barreling.

I have been using Remington rifles for well over 40 years and own at present a dozen or twenty of the things. I have never had a safety fail. Not one. I strongly agree with Morrison in that gun handling safety is the best safety you can have. Unfortunately, in this sue happy society we live in, you're not going to hear anyone say, gee, like an ass, I was pointing my rifle at someone and it went off. How stupid of me. Instead you hear "who can I blame other than me." Instead of spending so much money trying to protect folks from themselves, maybe they should remove all safeties and sell the guns with a disclaimer that the purchaser has the sole responsibility for safety.

I was considering replacing the safety on my 700 as it has the old style. I got alot of help and material on this problem from one of the members of this forum. I am not free to post any of it without his permision. I will contaact him asap and see what he says. He sent several articles as well as internal memos from remington concerning this subject. I believe this is the reason remington has the recall on all the old style safety mechanisms that locked the bolt down. Taht added to the trigger problem that Jack talked about is a recipe for disaster. I would however also state that if the gun was always pointed in a safe direction it would be much less of an issue.

Frank---

You did GOOD! That's a good combo.

mho---

The Jewel trigger is well named. They're a high quality, well made and finished trigger. So is Canjar, Shilen, Hart, and the rare and expensive Keyon. I haven't dealt with any others and can't comment on them.

To all of us---- I'd hope that everyone would back up and take another look at gun safety.

We all take the "it can't happen to me because I'm more careful than that" attitude. So do I. I shoot a Remington from time to time and have for 40 years. I've never had one go off without a trigger pull. Never had an FSR, FBC, FBO, or anything else........but my own carelessness.

But the reality is----others aren't NEARLY as careful. Look at ANY of the hunting shows on TV. ANY of them if you want to see terrible gun handling. Think of how many hunters are within 2 miles of you when hunting...how many within 2 miles of your kids on a school bus....how many of those are not paying attention. How many of them have a gun that they DONT know when it might fire?

We have sights on a gun so we can control *where* it shoots. We have triggers to control *when* it shoots.

Closing a bolt should NEVER fire a rifle. Neither should manipulation of a safety.

A gun should NEVER fire without the trigger being pulled and should be incapable of firing with the safety engaged. If either of those happen the blame belongs to those who made it....... the same as a car maker is responsible if the accelerator goes to the floor when the gear shift goes to drive. (Remember the Olds story?)

The difference is that the car maker has a publicized recall so others aren't hurt by something already proven faulty......

........and it DOESN'T TAKE FIFTY YEARS TO DO IT !!!

You're right!! EVERYONE should ALWAY point any gun in a SAFE direction. That's common sense and always should be the rule.....even though it's a physical impossibility unless you're the only person, animal, or machine in the 5 mile cirle you stand in.....or have a traveling bullet trap.

My wish is that the gunmakers would be as careful as we are.

Here is one solution to the problem. I've been playing with Remington triggers for many years. Ironically the first time that I encountered a trigger problem on a Remington was in 1970 on a Marine Corps M40. Push ups for failing to keep these clean, and regular maintenance of the trigger group kept debris from causing an out of place connector like Jack describes. Of course gun and muzzle safety was big in the Corps. Fast forward a few years.

I had a customer come to my shop with a malfunctioning Remington trigger. The connector was the problem. Someone had backed off the trigger spring to the point that it was no longer able to exert enough pressure on the connector to hold it in place reliably.

I had played with replacement trigger levers for the Remington 700 triggers that were heat treated and would replace the original, thereby eliminating the connector. One day I decided to try a little acra-glas to secure the connector in place and guess what? It worked so well that I put aside my plans for the replacement trigger levers.

Remington triggers can be excellent if carefully reworked. When I rework a Remington trigger for target work, I always apply a little acra-glas to the connector before reassembling the trigger and setting the adjustments. The acra-glas holds... Just a thought.

Malm

Malm---

I've been doing that for many years BUT, the rear of the connector has a 5 degree angle on it that the sear cams off of every shot. The glas will many times break its bond because of it.

I grind them square.

I think that anyone who owns one of these things should ship it to me here in Prescott, AZ and I will dispose of it for you........NO CHARGE.

Jack,

That's right. Squaring the drop off angle of the connector is part of the trigger job. When the sear drops off the connector, it should be a straight drop with zero interference.

Question? What is the purpose of the stupid hole for the over travel screw in the connector anyway? That would have been a good place to retro fit a small screw to hold the connector in place...

Realizing that the sear spring has to sit on something, You would think that the engineers could have "un-Cluster Foxtrotted" this area a bit better. While we're making cyber improvements to the factory trigger, why not swap places with the trigger spring and the over travel screw? I think the higher location for the spring would be a benefit to the design.

Come on Remington, it wouldn't take a whole hell of a lot to correct these little errors if you would just do it!


Malm

This has been a very instructive thread. The best thing about this forum, is all the stuff you can learn! Thanks to all who posted.
- mike

.

[ 03-13-2003, 23:43: Message edited by: Nebraska ]