The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Mr. Jack Belk - comment @ Rem 700Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Mr. Jack Belk - comment @ Rem 700 | Login/Join |
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Jack, As an extension to this could you outline the potential hazards of a trigger block only safety as per the Mark X side safety? Every time I take my rifle out I check that it will not fire on safe. I understand that a break on the firing pin any place behind the spring will result in a discharge but are there any other pitfalls to be aware of? | |||
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I'm wondering why Remington doesn't just contract for aftermarket triggers, slap a tamper seal on it, and advertise it as having an "improved" trigger. They could get them for 50 cents on the retail dollar and those who want to compromise their legal standing can rip the seal off and adjust them. | |||
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Is this problem still seen in their newer rifles, because I think this may have happened to me last bear season with my 300RUM BDL SS. I took a shot at a bear and when I went to load another round, the gun immediately went off when I closed the bolt (the safety was already off from the first shot). Because I had adjusted the trigger to 3 lbs and the fact that I was excited, I always figured that I must have bumped the trigger inadvertantly. I had never done that in 20 years of hunting, so I was pretty upset with myself for letting it happen. The temp was also around 25 degrees, so I'm not sure if that may have attributed as well. It hasn't happened since, but once is really all it takes. Is there anyway to test this again, or is it a completely random occurance? | |||
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Damn! This thread is going to cause me to dump all of my Remington rifles and buy more Montana actions! ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} Then I'll have to have them all barreled! This could get expensive!! | |||
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| <Lightnin> |
Nebraska, If thay are shooters they should stop by and say hello. I am the resident rangemaster at Prescott Sportsman Club rifle & pistol range. Where can a person do some pheasant hunting back there in Nebraska? I went to Paxton last season and was not impressed. Jim | ||
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1894;The young man that was killed was standing on the opposite side of a horse trailer when his mother was unloading the rifle.The bullet passed through the trailer before striking the boy.Sure it would have been better if the rifle had been pointed at the ground but I think the culprit here is the manufacturer not the mother.w/regards | |||
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Jack, Would switching to a Timney (or similar) trigger solve the problem (since it uses the factory safety), or would it be necessary to also install something like the Gentry three-positon safety? I'm not trying to put a price tag on safety, but this could get expensive if you own more than one M700! | |||
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quote:Indeed I agree - anyhow if nothing else at least it made me think about how I carry my rifle. | |||
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quote:Jack many thanks for this but it leads me to ask how likely a risk this is? I think my test checks the loosening issue. What in your opinion is the best side safety for a mauser that locks the bolt on safe? | |||
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| <JBelk> |
1894--- I don't know of a side safety trigger that locks the bolt that also has a way to unload it without taking the safety off......so to answer your question-- I don't know of one. I've seen (and have a drawer half full) of Mk-X and Santa Barbara triggers with broken ears from overtightening the tension screw or the trigger contacting the inletting and breaking the ears on firing. My suggestion to my students was to grind the side safety off those Mk-X triggers so you could get more skips out of it when you threw it in the lake. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Canjar makes a good side lever, trigger locking safety and so did, at one time, Sako. I will not use a trigger locking safety on one of my rifles. Shroud mount only for me.......even though I don't use them. I lift the bolt handle for safe. | ||
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| <JOHAN> |
JBelk Is there anyone makeing a solid trigger for the remmy? I have a shilen trigger that have worked very fine but all this gives me the creeps ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Hell, I might sell all the rifles and fill their space with good commercial mausers, just to have a proper action ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} / JOHAN | ||
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Mr Belk, I am curious as to what exactly is your stake in all this? While you post seem quite glib, they also seem quite polished and rehersed. Too much so for you to be driven solely by civic duty. You sound more like a disgruntled ex-employee of Remington or a lawyer laying a base for a big pay off. As I posted earlier, I have over 40 years experience with Remingtons and have never had the safety not function nor have I had an accidental discharge, fos, fod, fee, pdq, eeoc nor any other acronymn you used. Also, some years ago, I was told, not by one gunsmith but several, that the Remington trigger was the best in the business. But, as anyone who works with machinery should know, grimlins creep about at night and any mechanical device that can bite should be treated with circumspection AT ALL TIMES. All of this leads to my curiosity as to what drives your zeal in this matter? | |||
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Jeez, we all keep asking Jack to share his knowledge with us, and he spends his spare time doing so. Scepticism is fine, but in this form perhaps somewhat exaggerated? Perhaps a less personal note to the posts, regardless of whether opinions are shared or not? - mike | |||
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quote:Not everyone that drove a Ford Pinto blew up either.. It doesn't mean the problem didn't exist. Your attitude reminds me of some of the Milsurpers who routinely say: "Headspace, I've never checked it and never had a problem, YET." | |||
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Moderator |
beemanbeme, I don't want to speak for Mr. Belk, but if one reads his posts carefully, one will note a razor sharp wit and dry sense of humor. The man is one funny SOB. You see glibness, I see humor. Mr. Belk, I believe, has spent numerous hours in the courtroom testifying as an expert witness. At least my legal training leads me to believe that based on his knowledge of legal matters. Maybe that is why you interpret his answers as "polished and rehearsed". Regards, Terry [ 03-14-2003, 00:36: Message edited by: T.Carr ] | |||
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| <RickMD> |
beemanbeme: Mr. Belk is a renowned gunsmith and past President of the Gun Maker's Guild, a society of a very few, elite, custom gun makers. Your remarks are ignorant and totally uncalled for. He offers his expertise on this baord for free. | ||
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quote:Dead people. Dead people shot because of defective Remington triggers. | |||
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| <JBelk> |
beemanbeme-- My "stake" in this is firearms safety. Anytime ANYBODY gets shot it reflects badly on me as an absolute lover of guns. It is my belief that when anybody gets shot it should be as a result of 1) A crime, 2) As a result of defending against a crime, 3) or warfare. I'd suggest you look up the US Patent (M.H. Walker and Remington Arms Co inventors) and look at the design and understand how it works and how it's different from others. I'm trying to save lives and save our guns. What are you doing? BTW--- Before I figured out how they failed a bunch of people told me the M-700 trigger was good, too. Some *still* say it. That doesn't alter mechanical facts, no matter how much you wish it would. The INVENTOR of the trigger was the first to point out it's faults, not me!! I was only 2 years old at the time. You ever been in a plane crash? They must not happen, huh? | ||
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beeman, Jack is the last guy that needs to be defended by me but he is a wealth of knowledge who freely donates his time to the education of others. He is a very talented gunsmith, which is an unsertatement, who had investigated many ruptures and served as an expert witness many times. I feel very fortunate that Jack consented to working over an action for me. I am sure many others have felt or would feel the same. | |||
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Well beeman, I'll take your side. As long as he continues to be paid to testify against them, he will keep his routine "polished". | |||
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first off elkslayer, I know it may be dangerous for me, but i am willing to suffer and take those dangerous guns off your hands.. I have a rem 700 made just prior to 1981 when I bought it new....I think it happend once, but to a buddy and not me. I have thought until now he just accidentaly hit the trigger!!!!!! after hunting he jumped into the pass seat of my PU...I drove a little down the dirt road and then asked "is that gun unloaded?"...oops, no is what he said....so I tell him to unload it. It is verticle with the buttstock on the floot and the muzzle straight up....as he reaches down to undo the bolt...it wont open because the safety is on...as he goes for the safety the gun leans towards me some...as he undid the safety the gun goes off!!!!!! 7 mag!!!!!...the bullet goes up past my right ear and out the back window where it meets the sheet metal right behind my head!!!!!!!!its just like they say....it seamed like s l o w motion...there was some gunsmoke in the cab and I couldnt hear a damn thing!!!!!!!!!!man my head was ringing.....I always thought he must have accidentally tripped the trigger while reaching down between his knees!!....funny thing was, I incurred permanent damage to MY LEFT EAR!!!!!!!!!!! seems the noise blast bounched off the back window and then to the drivers window and directly into my left ear!!!!!!!!....that was one on my more closer calls with death!......glad I didnt yell at him!...I was to incapacitated at the scene to think straight!!!, later I told him...you got to check the gun before you get into the car....but didnt matter, I never hunted with him again anyway.....bob [ 03-14-2003, 02:20: Message edited by: 222blr ] | |||
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| Moderator |
Cold Bore, Your comment, implying that Mr. Belk's opinions are unduly influenced by remuneration, is one of those backhanded internet insults that quite frankly pisses me off. Are we to think that all of Remington's experts are motivated solely by eleemosynary intent? Please sir, publish your curriculum vitae so that all here can be apprised of your qualifications. Until then, kindly keep your uninformed opinions and insults to yourself. Regards, Terry [ 03-14-2003, 04:59: Message edited by: T.Carr ] | |||
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I got to meet Jack Belk at the Firearms Engravers and Custom Gun Guild show in Reno at the end of January (same dates as the SCI Convention and the Bladesmith show). He is as witty in person as he is here, and he had some way cool things there he has built for show, touch and tell. I was going to say I haven't had a problem with my Remingtons, but "upon further review" I decided it is not true. I got my M721 in 1954, and I still have it. Along the way I looked at that split two-piece arrangement that Jack mentioned, and on went a Canjar replacement trigger. I bought a Rem M700 7mm Mag and took it on a deer and elk hunt in Idaho with my uncle (who lived there). One morning we motored up a mountain in the jeep, I jumped out when we stopped and loaded up. I was facing away from my Uncle Max and his jeep Little Joe when I closed the bolt -- blam! I figured it was something to do with the cold weather because I didn't touch the trigger. I traded that rifle years later for another with a .473" bolt face, and it is now a 6.5-'06 -- but with an aftermarket trigger. Jack, I have a Remington M7 Youth in 6mm Rem as one of my "grandson rifles"; what should I do with the trigger? jim | |||
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It seems this thread has a positive and a negative. Positive- Reminds us how important it is to handle every weapon as if it were loaded! Negative- the selling price of Remington's has just dropped a 100.00 for new triggers! [ 03-14-2003, 04:43: Message edited by: gsp ] | |||
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quote:Nothing backhanded about it. I said exactly what I meant. Nothing "implied", sneaky or anything else. Sorry, I'm not in the Belk worshipping group... | |||
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Well beemanbeme I hope this has been a lesson to your ass. Belk has a following on this board,he could feed some of these guys a shit sandwich and have them believe its prime rib. As for expert witnesses,these guys take on all shapes and forms. The ones with few morals will testify to just about anything as long as they're being paid and the pay in most cases is excellant. Which is why so many cops and law enforcement officers become expert witnesses. A good example is traffic investigation. The average cop can attend a couple weeks of study and then be "certified" as an expert in traffic investigation and in return testify in court as such. All an expert witness has to do is sell their story to a jury. Attorneys have lists of expert witnesses to choose from and these attorneys use these witnesses based on the witnesses track record of cases which were won or ruled in favor of due to their testimony. An attorney also looks for a witness with an impressive set of credentials,or credentials which will sound impressive to a jury which is probably uneducated in the witnesses specialty. So saying that Mr.Belk is a past president of the custom gun makers guild,first class gunsmith all around swell guy,can in some cases sell or impress a jury. Nevermind the fact that in the real world being a president of the guild and having 50 cents might get you a cup of coffee. A good attorney will try and match the personality of their expert witness with what they believe is the juries attitude. In belks case he's fairly creative on these boards and makes people laugh,draws a crowd. They also pick a witness that can break down subject matter so that even the slowest juror can understand it. Everything is rehearsed between the attorney and the witness,before they're put on stand. If an attorney can't get a witness to say the things they want,then the witness isn't used. Personally in belks case you can see that he's a died in wool mauser fan and pimps them out every chance he has,so his stance on push feeds like remington hold little water in my opinion. You can also read some of D'arcy Echols responses to belk and see that belk isn't quite the expert he'd have you believe he is. By the way what ever happened to the barbers? Did they make any progress with their suit against remington? I guess the next step is suing the horse trailer manufacturer for not making their trailers bullet proof. | |||
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RMK, While I spar with Jack Belk also your missing one thing even though you used almost all the words in the dictionary above. What you missed is that we are discussing a mechanical device. I grew up in a large tool and die shop and a competant man can figure this stuff out. This is how I view Jack Belk. It's as simple as that. He figured it out. A picture says a thousand words. | |||
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This thread was supposed to be a discussion of Remington's safety, not a referendum on Mr. Belk or on expert witnesses. Did it ever occur to anyone that Mr. Belk testified against Remington because they did something that he thought was wrong? | |||
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Thank you RickMD. I did not know who Mr Belk is and of all the flames, yours was the only one with the answer. My post was neither rude or uncalled for. I felt it was very straight forward and clear and, as I said, based on my experience which is not exactly inconsiderable. I assume from your name you are a MD perhaps? Has no one ever ask to see you license? Or ask you where you stood in your graduating class? | |||
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| Moderator |
beemanbeme, Cold Bore and RMK, I personally do not know whether Remington triggers are unsafe. When this topic came up, I at least attempted to find some independent background information on the subject matter (see my first post on this thread regarding the CBS news story). If you have any evidence (other than anecdotal evidence) to contradict the issue at hand, then please present it so we may all make an informed decision. I am sorry, but "I own one and it ain't never happended to me" and a diatribe regarding court house antics are neither relevant nor informative. Regards, Terry [ 03-14-2003, 09:09: Message edited by: T.Carr ] | |||
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Mr. Carr, well said. Mr. Belk, remember Albert Einstein's statement, "Great spirits have always been met with violent opposition from mediocre minds." I think the relevance of that quote to this thread is rather obvious. Don't worry, we know who knows what they're talking about around here... | |||
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I have never had Mr. Belk ever do any work for me so am not here to brag him up on that account. I don't really intend to brag him up up or tear him down as an expert witness either. Why, simply because I have never observed him in a court room or anywhere else for that matter. But, anyone who has read these threads that have been posted since he appeared on this board should note one thing. He has always stressed safety above anything else. That to me is worth remembering and I appreciate it even if I don't always agree with everything else he says. Now, I have never had a problem with any Remington 700s or 721s I have ever owned either. I now longer have them because of my love for reworked military actions in stocks that I like. But my Wife has a Remington 721 in 30-06 that she dotes on. She doesn't want to get rid of it for any reason. So, I did take apart the trigger and I can see what Mr. Belk is saying. It isn't the best designed thing in the world. Also since I am most likley to be the one hunting with my Wife and although she is as careful as anyone I have ever hunted with, and much more careful than most, there remains that small chance something could happen. A new Shilen trigger was not all that expensive and a three position safety will follow shortly. Sure it adds to the cost of the total package but how many times have you heard folks tell about putting a super high level scope or an expesive synthetic stock on their rifle and not feel the least bit bad spending many hundreds of dollars doing it. The Rimrock stock on my Wife's rifle cost almost as much as the new trigger and safety will. If you add the price of the new trigger guard to it it is about the same expense. I am willing to spend at least as much for safety as for added function most of the time. If others are not so be it. So instead of knocking a person for being concerned about safety, let's forget about personalities here and just discuss the issue of the Remington 700 trigger. Upon taking one apart does anyone think it is a superior design than say any of the aftermarket designs to replace it and if so why? | |||
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Mr Belk, On the issue of triggers, is the model 7 still of the inferior design or not? SP | |||
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Used to be butting into a disagreement between two men was bad form. Mr. Belk's not a lady whose honor is being besmirched by hooligans. How about we give him the respect of letting him resolve his own disagreements? He might appreciate that and at the same time placate those with "fan club" issues. To those skeptical of Mr. Belk's qualifications I would suggest the civil thing to do is act like a lawyer and simply point out the inadequacies of his training or experience in general or his error about M700 triggers in particular. I'm sure Mr. Belk wants to know if he's wrong about something; most intelligent people do. (FWIW, here in GA expert witnesses are agreed to by both sides in the pre-trial order approved by the judge prior to the jury ever hearing testimony. That means qualifications of experts are usually stipulated by BOTH sides, and are rarely called into question once they take the stand. Their qualifications are far more important to attorneys than their ability to play to the jury.) As far as expert witnesses, will my M700 qualify? New out of the box it will fire each and every time the safety is pushed forward, if the trigger was pulled when the safety was on. Don't know how they missed it at the factory as surely they perform that simple test before shipping. Must have been packed at 1659 on a Friday. Is that expert enough? [ 03-14-2003, 18:14: Message edited by: steve y ] | |||
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quote:Jack, I'm sure you're familiar with the Sako 75's safety. For those who may not be, it's a two position, trigger mounted safety that locks the bolt when on. It has, however, a second button that allows the bolt to be opened without taking the gun off safe. Are there any inherent flaws with that design? What about the safety on Howas? It appears to be similar to Remington's, but I don't think they work the same. | |||
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quote:Maybe 'MD' stands for Maryland. | |||
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quote:Steve, the irony of that quote is that by so making it you are doing what you suggest some of the rest of us not do. In other words, by writing that we should stay out of other people's disagreements you are yourself entering into other people's disagreement. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} I make no apologies whatsoever for being a member of the Belk fan club. I'll even run for chapter president, if you want me to. I very much appreciate his willingness to take the time to share his wealth of knowledge with the rest of us. And he does so very patiently. Search some of the questions asked of him by the likes of me and others on this and other forums and his patience and graciousness will quickly become apparent. And no, he doesn't need me or anyone else to fight his battles for him; he can do that far better himself. But there comes a point when people like me feel compelled to step in. Why should an industry expert have to answer every sniping comment of less informed people nipping at his heals? I would rather that Mr. Belk use his energy to answer our questions. Especially when, by their posts, such people demonstrate that they aren't interested in engaging in an honest dialog, they are just throwing stones. | |||
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I can understand the 7xx fans for getting upset but don't put it in writing. Let the facts come out and we can all learn then. I admitted that I had never heard of this defect being more common to Remingtons than other rifles. We all know that other guns go off too sometimes for various reasons. This thread is more serious that some debate over cartridge selection. The primary responsibility is not to aim the gun at something that you don't want to shoot. That sounds familar doesn't it? If the shoe were on the other foot and my battery of M 70's had Remington type triggers I would replace them. It's not that hard to do and there has to be other benefits. Belk can come back and convince one more blind by choice person by spending another hour typing but the choice is very clear what to do already. | |||
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quote:I am not entirly sure what you are getting at? Because you have never witnessed a accidential discharge from a 700 they do not exist? Or that in 40 years of limited experiance you have never witnessed a accidential discharge? My friend Lon has 1 year of experiance with a remington 700, and has had 2 accidental discharges according to him, with the same rifle, in 60 rounds. I am now buying the rifle off of him, partly becasue I want it and partly because I dont believe his experiance. I have never had a "AD" but believe the 700 does/can/will, and is flawed. "I was told, not by one gunsmith but several, that the Remington trigger was the best in the business." , yes and a you aparently believe it... I dont believe that regardless of accidental discharges or not. Secondly... I am not sure where ANYONE should believe in "GRIMLINS" with regard to dangerous machinery. In engineering we try to understand why things fail, not which fairy tail causes them. The unexplainable is the remander of what we dont know, in conditions that already exist. | |||
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