JD--

I'm not a brake mechanic and don't know the variations, but I love the fail-safe elegance of the Westinghouse patents.

Does the facts that you state, that not all air brakes work the same, in any way change the fail-safe Westinghouse design I refferred to??

I don't think so.

Gents, I have been looking at this issue for the last three months. I had already decided to put a gentry 3 position on my 375, at about $150.00 I might add. I have now decided the trigger is a must also. I have never had a problem with accidental discharge with any of my remingtons. I do however feel it is only prudent. Why take a chance. I still like my rems and will keep them all. I will however take care of what I see as a problem.

To All:

It never ceases to amaze me how the simplest of discussions, and it seems to make no difference what the subject is, can degenerate into a king sized pissing contest. That seems to be the case here. Since everyone else has added their two cents worth, so will I.

First on the subject of Jack Belk. I've know Jack personally for about six or seven years now. I have found him to be intelligent, witty, a wonderful craftsman and to the point. Although I have disagreed with him on some matters, none have dealt with the technical aspects of a firearm. I am not technically oriented and when someone that is and whose opinions I have learned to trust (like Jack Belk's) makes a statement, I listen.

I too have owned a pot load of Remington 700s over the years, and, fingers crossed, I have not experienced an accidental discharge with any of them. I currently own but one and I assure you that based on what I have read on this post, it is getting a trigger replacement, post haste. I am simply not willing to take an unnecessary risk, however slight. My one and only accidental discharge was with a Ruger Nr. 1 fitted with a Canjar single-set trigger. It fired when I took it off safe after the days hunt. I assure you that it scared the bejeezus out of me and all those around me. I also didn't hear too well for quite some time as the muzzle was about three inches from my ear when it went. Close inspection revealed that the sharp point of a thorn (which we have plenty of here in AZ) had wedged the trigger depressed. That AD was not the fault of the trigger nor the action, it was simply a stroke of fate.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I have noted in this discussion that the vast majority of the responders seem to agree with Jack. For those that don't, fine. To imply that Jack has an ulterior motive for his opinions, based upon many years of technical experience in the field, seems to me to be disingenuous, at best.

Tom

Not relevant to the trigger discussion, but Jack, you are correct about George Westinghouse and the invention of airbrakes. His first versions were designed in the 1860's and DIDN'T have the failsafes designed into them. A few rather spectacular failures in the rail industry quickly lead to "fail applied" designs. You're right, they really are an interesting design. FWIW - Dan

This has been a wonderful class. Now to practical matters. Changing the trigger group is easy enough but I notice that the shroud safeties state "gunsmith installation reqired"
I have plenty of tools for gunsmithing and like to do my own work whenever possible, how hard is it to install?

Thanks, Rob

Recoil Rob---

They really are a pain in the butt to do one at a time......You have to have the means to grind or carbide mill a precice angle on the face of the cocking piece.

Remingtons aren't near as easy to break down for fitting. You need a fixture to do it.

If you have a lathe and a mill you can make the fixture and fit the safety.

I currently own but one and I assure you that based on what I have read on this post, it is getting a trigger replacement, post haste. I am simply not willing to take an unnecessary risk, however slight.

Well said Tom. I for myself can't see how I can afford not to spend the $70.00 or so to gain more peace of mind. That's a pretty cheap investment in my estimation. Less than a $1.50 per week for a year.

Jack: I don't have a copy of the Westinghouse patents, but you're probably right about the patents. Still a competent mechanic must keep them adjusted correctly, same as a trigger and safety mechanism should be maintained by a competent person.

JD---

EXACTLY my point!! If you DON'T maintain a failsafe mechanizm it fails....it doesn't work.....it doesn't do what it was made to do....It fails.

BUT, it fails *safe*. The train car won't move. The semi- trailer makes those long black skid marks that then swerve off the hiway........a gun won't fire.

A lack of adjustment or the fail to keep it clean or rust free should result in a failure of the gun to work, NOT a discharge when not intended.

Mr Belk,

I've greatly appreciated you comments and insights on this thread as I've followed it with subtle curiosity from the beginning. The mechanics, legalities, realities, myths, and emotions behind this issue are many. But there is one question I would like to ask you personally: Regardless of "if" the design is flawed, "how" it is flawed, or "why" it is flawed what is the solution? In your opinion, that is, what should Remmington do? What is a reasonable solution from the perspective of both Remington and the consumer?

Thanks

Waldog---

I've been ask the same question several times while under oath.

There are several viable options:

1) Replace the trigger and connector with a solid trigger.

2) When stamping the trigger housing, include a port forward of the trigger/connector that receives a bent leg of the safety lever so that the safety leg pushes the connector into full contact with the trigger as the rifle is put ON safe and holds it there until the safe is pushed off.

3) Adopt one or several alternate trigger/safety designs that are proven safe.

Mike Walker, the designer of the Remington trigger, was a great target shooter and a fine designer. He realized the trigger wasn't suited for hunting conditions and said so within a year of introduction. That still holds true today.

Jack,

I thought of another great "fail safe" design: the elevator brake invented by Otis. Too bad Mr. Otis didn't design triggers!

Does it seems strange to anyone else that in our society of "new-and-improved modles" Remington has not modified, changed, up-graded, or otherwise 'improved their trigger design?!? For heaven's sake, how many times have we Americans redesigned the tooth brush? You know Big Green went to all kinds of R&D to come up with their own line of ultra short short Magnums to promote and further interest and sales, yet I raise an eyebrow that a 50(?) year old trigger design has not been modernized one iota. Revamping the rifle design worked for Winchester and Ruger didn't it? I think Savage triggers have gone through some evolution too, but I'm not for sure. So why not Remington? Any idea what gives?

Waldog,

I know what you mean about toothbrushes. Geez, they won't even fit in the porcelain racks any more and don't brush teeth any better so far as I can tell.

However, if Remington changes their trigger it will bolster legal claims against them from future ADs that cause injury. It is an admission of sorts. A complete recall would be tremendously expensive but would offer some legal protection against the future mishaps.

I'm sure that is the case, but it's not like GM and Christler are recalling all cars produced without airbags and ABS. Nor is there an admission of guilt. You can see where I'm going with this, right? I believe the argument that it's a faulty design. I believe the counter arguments of handling, maintence, cleaning, improper adjustment, etc. BUT I think this last issue is what gets under my skin.... FINE, don't recall the rifles! FINE, don't admit any guilt! Fine, don't change the design! JUST QUIT PRODUCING THE DAMN THINGs AND MANUFACTURE SOMETHING BETTER!!!

Come on, there's nothing more American and capitalistic than re-inventing the wheel in the name of progress right? Why not Remington?

PS. Okay here's my admission... I own two 700's and replaced their triggers years ago only 'cause I wasn't satisified with them. At best, I think they are just another half-tolerable factory. trigger.

[ 03-19-2003, 01:11: Message edited by: waldog ]