quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
JWP, I guess he's getting ready in case there is ever a rainbow power forum on the site. He keeps pushing the sticking things up other peoples obummers, bless his heart.

Let's recap recent events. Rick gets banned for bad behavior. Some people are happy, some are mad. Moderator's comments are at best condescending.

Forum goes silent for a short while. Posts become more contentious and the moderator goes from condescending to being an ass. You would expect a little better behavior from a moderator.

Glad to see Rick gone, it is definitely a kinder, more gentle forum since he left.

Mike, sometimes when you get to cleaning up you just got to throw some bleach on the really hard to clean spots.

But thanks for your input.

Mrs. hitman,
I just counted 20 posts by you on 3 threads that have nothing to do with the topic. Just arguing like your wing men.

Talk about peanut gallery. Disgraceful.

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Mr Hot Core----please try and be a little more mild mannered because your over use of crude adjectives is diluting your message. Are you not capable of communicating on a higher plane than that? There is a thread below this one that you need to spend some time on. Maybe that will help you to work through this anger thing that you clearly cannot win on and help you focus on more productive endeavors.

jwp475,

I've heavily prepped and have done some very basic (insure even length) and have, like you, seen amazing accuracy from the basic stuff. I sometimes wonder if it's just a matter of, by chance, finding a rifle that has all the RIGHT STUFF to turn out great groups. I sometimes think it might be the cartridge itself. The advanced design of some cartridges lends itself to accuracy; sometimes not. What I know is that both my 6.5x47's are the most accurate I've ever owned/shot. My first rifle has over 1200 rounds through it and yet all I do is FL size with a Redding Type-S with a .289" neck bushing (.001" neck tension). I do anneal about every 4th shot. I wish it would shoot 1/4 MOA stuff like jwp's. Instead, mine both stay around 1/2 MOA for 5-shot groups.

Alan

There is no down and dirty answer to this question otherwise EVERY RIFLE AND LOADED ROUND could/would produce bugholer targets with anything it was fed.

I have run test after test with many rifles, some benchrest quality some out of the box factory and just about evey iteration on "tuning" you could wish for.

I guarantee that EVERY rifle and group shot by just picking seating length, brass and bullets randomly were from twice to 4-5 times larger than groups with the same components but with the brass "tuned".

Ive shot 3-5 round groups with prepped brass that go into one hole basically, then turn right around and shoot another group with the same components and this time get a 1" group...THEN...take the same brass, weight sort and ogive sort the bullets and get another oneholer group that stays that way until the brass dies.

My results also clearly show that just about ANY rifle will respond to tuning both the ammo and the rifle...the degree of effort resulting in those very small groups.

Some rifles and calibers require a higher level of tuning, other less...it depends on ALL the various factors not just a few.

A good barrel, tight, parallel to the bore axis "perfectly cut" chamber will shot much better than a sloppy one, but tuning the ammo to a sloppy one will result in good groups although it it MUCH HARDER to get small groups with a "lousy" chamber or barrel than in one with a good chamber.

WHY do you think benchresters, longrangers and competition shooter go to all the trouble with their rifles and ammo.

Repeatability is the bottom line. If your ammo shoots a bugholer one time them a 2" group the next...HOW can you compete?

I've had facory Rems that got to that quarter inch level with very little tuning and others that I couldn't get to shoot much less than 3/4 no matter WHAT I did or what components I used.

The same with benchresters or varminters I had built or built myself.

The picture I posted shows two groups that measure ~0.265" between the two shots and the third was little over ~0.325"...and this was with just the first preliminary loads...but the 6-284 barrel from the same maker is giving me all kinds of fits...even with new Norma brass turned just enough to clean up the neck variation and uniform the wall thickness. Even then I got groups with bullets going WAY out of the group and others just enlarging the hole slightly.

I've tried annealing brass by all the "usual" methods only to ruin it so I don't anneal anymore...you may get the neck tension back, but if you trimmed the cases any at all then metal has moved from one place to another, the amount of metal movement depending on the amount of trimming...but if it works for you I find only a few problems with it.

A well fitted chamber to resizer will keep ammo working a long time depending on the caliber...I've reloaded and fired the same 223 case 50 times with the load that shoots the best in one rifle and ended up with a 3/4" hole. The case was still going but I was worn out after 2 days of doing the test. I did the same thing with a 444 Marlin going 40 times and a 458 American going 30 times.

I keep thinking about buying one of the "automatic" annealing machines...at least the resulting brass would be more uniform.

Whether or not to "prep" your brass is a personal choice depending on many factors...it's YOUR choice...I see no need to flame it or those who do it...no different than vanilla/chocolate/pistachio, Ford/Chebby/Dodge, blond/brunette/redhead.

GSSP; Sound like you have an excellent rifle. Some brass is very uniform to begin with so tuning might improve OR go the other way. You might take a few minutes to do a little more tuning on a few pieces of brass and play with the load a bit and GET that oneholer...for a few pieces of brass anyway.

I've had a few rifles that I worked down to a few cases that would put them in the same hole time after time that I used for competition and never shot them other THAN in competition...everyone I knew at that time did the same....don't know what it going on in competition today, but I'll bet something along the same lines is going on.

Luck

You make some very good observations and without saying it point blank you eluded to it – PROCESS! This is the key to repeatability and 98% of the people that hand load have serious issues when it comes to the entire process. One thing I did learn watching a World Record HOF Shooter/Smith when building rifles, preparing the brass, making his bullets (an ordeal in the process by itself), and a multitude of other things was adhere to a process..

Bottom line is this---you cannot pick one operation out in the process and add consistency to it and expect to have repeatable results. The entire process must be proofed then there will be no surprises which is easy to say but in reality is hard to accomplish without a hell of a lot of work and documentation..

This Hot Core guy is a real piece of work. He tries to poo poo every thread . Kind of makes you wonder why he is here at all--from what I have read he is not a long range shooter so who knows?


Hmmmm he had posted below my post but it is now deleted. Maybe he is banned now who knows??

He's been warned; he won't have much of a presence on here.

quote:

This Hot Core guy is a real piece of work. He tries to poo poo every thread . Kind of makes you wonder why he is here at all--from what I have read he is not a long range shooter so who knows?

You are just now figuring that out?

Hotcore hates everything that was invented after the Folsum Tip.

Right on...what you call "process" I call "tuning, blueprinting or prepping"...same thing under a different nomen.

Everyone wants to get there, but many don't want to go through the "process", don't care, don't have the equipment, are beginners, or have no need for bugholers, etc...those that do know the rifle as a system, know how to work the "system".

I haven't seen a "world class" shooter, or rifle, or maker for a long time, but I have seen "world class rifle built, even came pretty close a few times myself and I've seen a "world class" maker come up with a few REAL dogs.

Todays crop of custom rifle produces have a tremendous advantage over those of "yesteryear" as EVERYTHING concerning this sport has increased in quality a million fold over the last 40-50 years...I remember fairly major matches won by 1/2" groups...today if you're not running in the 1's and 2's or less at 200 yds, you're falling off the bottom of the board.

Today factory bullets are as good or better than custom bullets back then and the custom bullets are just almost perfect in weight, ogive, length, size etc. The last couple of boxes of 6mm Sierra 107gr MK weighed 107gr +/- .1 gr with only 2-3 outside this weight...the same with the 22cal Sierra 77gr MK's at 77.6 gr +/- a tenth...and the ogives were just as close. Hornady on the otherhand is something else...I must be getting all the boxes from the beginning or end of the runs as the last 3 boxes of AMAX'S have had at least 2 and sometimes 3 different ranges of ogive measurements, but the weight have been right on...and they shot great groups when separated into ogive lengths and the seating adjusted.

Every forum I've visited has all the information needed to get there...but the same questions keep coming up...I don't think ANYONE really bothers with the search function...they are really missing all the good information.

And...of course...the redazz continues instead of letting the garbage drop and get buried. If no one kept the pot going, then those being what they, are would soon go somewhere else and stop posting...it ALWAYS takes TWO to keep the pot boiling...the fire AND the one feeding the fire.

It's simple...let the problem child be the problem child and DON'T become ANOTHER problem child by feeding it...it will soon die and cease to BE a problem child.

Being humans...that will NEVER happen...aggression is built into our genes and sniping seems to be the thing to do in todays permissive society.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
This Hot Core guy is a real piece of work. He tries to poo poo every thread . Kind of makes you wonder why he is here at all--from what I have read he is not a long range shooter so who knows?


Hmmmm he had posted below my post but it is now deleted. Maybe he is banned now who knows??

Seems you are continuing your string of WRONG - as usual.

Well from your posts it sure seems that you are not a long range shooter... Question then with a right hand twist and just to make it simple with no variations of speed and wind direction at various ranges where is the impact of a bullet going to impact with a 4 oclock condition?