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>6 MOA is 6.283 inches at 1K my gong in the above post is 12" in diameter. That would put on or over the edge of the target if I adjusted .6MOA for right hand spin drift. I know that artillery adjust for spin drift and corriolos drift. According to Lowlight the Marines sniper trianing doesn't teach spin drift and he should know since he was a Marins sniper _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Actually, I do not think you and I are very far apart either, and I respect your inquiring mind. Your posts have made good sense to me because I got the impression YOU were NOT depending on the PDA, but using it is a learning tool. Where I get upset is with those folks who seem to think PDAs or any other such gadgets are NECESSARY implements for successful long range shooting. In my opinion they are not only NOT necessary, but until the shooter has learned to judge wind for himself, without PDAs, any allowance for coriolis effect and so on is mostly irrelevant and gets in the way of quicker learning. Winds, and the ability to instantly pick-up and allow for wind changes, are far more important. Until that has been done, in my opinion the shooter is not a truly expert rifleman no matter what, and PDAs are essentially a distraction from the learning process. That is not to put anyone down. No-one is expert at anything in the beginning. But if he trains for the sport he participates in, rather than learning to RELY ON technology, he certainly CAN become very expert over time. This thread reminds me of the late John Howard, of Alberta, who started shooting hi-power in about 1978-80, or somewhere around there. John was a terrible shot at first, as was everyone new to the game, when they first started (especially yours truly). But he asked questions of everyone, listened, practiced a LOT, tried out everything people told him, studied what he had done right and what he had done wrong in just about every shoot I ever saw him in....and I shot with him weekly for a number of years. When I moved to Scottsdale in 1982, I told everyone who might want to, to come down and visit me and shoot at Black Canyon (now Ben Avery). John was the only one who called to do so. Unfortunately my wife and I were in a rough marital patch at the time and I was so ashamed of her nasty attitude toward shooters in general that I didn't respond at all...to my everlasting regret. Now that things are better, John is dead and gone, and I can't invite him again. DAMN. Anyway, pretty much totally on his own, John spent years becoming a superb shot, made a number of Canadian National Teams, and won a lot of championships...all without learning to depend on any electronic gadgets. And he never dveloped even a second of over-weening pride or arrogance in the process. The name of this thread was " reading the wind" was it not? So why PDAs, weather stations, various esoteric "effects" and so on? Learning to read the wind is done by learning what to watch, how to judge its effects regarding bullet strike at the target, and..........reading the wind, time and time again, perpetually, ad infinitum! Best wishes to you. | |||
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. Because if your scope is mounted incorrectly, you don't account for spin drift etc. then everyone has different resuts from their "wind read". Did you read Charley's script?
Having your scope mounted incorrectly causes you to miss even though you can read wind. If your lifetime of learning to read wind for long range shooting was based on a scope canted in the rings, not accounting for spin drift or Coriolis, then are you truly skilled at reading the wind itself? Eliminate other factors that affect drift first, then your hits and misses are absolutely due to your wind call.
Actually it's .6 MOA. If your scope is turned in the rings ever so slightly counter clockwise it will account automatically for spin drift and that may be why you are not noticing it. I'd leave it alone! | |||
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.6 MOAis what I understood as well. I know that some shooters swear that they have to account for spin drift and others swear that they do not account for it. Some account for spin drift with certain bullets, but not with other bullets. I have talked to Brain Lietz about this at length as well as Gerald Perry of Exbal. I sure do not know all of the answers, I just know what has worked for me with my 338 Lapua and 300 win _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I certainly do not disagree with the various charts, tables, variables, math, etc. for it is scientific and math being the only true science, can not be disputed. However, from a practical side and for those shooting long range with sling and peep sights, this indepth knowledge becomes less of a factor than the human factor. Few shooters can hold the rifle in sling/prone position as steady as one from a bench/bag or support and the human influence shows up on the target face. My system for adjusting/reading the wind boils down to a basic formula developed sometime in the past by the military for the '06 cartridge. Wind from each clock face reading, that is 1 o'clock, 2,3, etc. has different impact on the bullets flight. I generally disregard wind from either 12 or 6. Obviously if it is of great speed may have an impact but normal wind I find does not have any impact on shot placement. Formula I use is quite simple and quick to employ with a bit of division/multiplication in the head while studying the wind. If wind is from 3 or 9 it is full value and if say the range is 800yds one simply takes the estimated wind speed times the range and divides that answer by 1000. Est. wind speed is 8mph times 800 equals 6400 and then divide by 1000 equals 6.4moa wind adjustment, right or left. Not all that simple for rarely is the wind exactly from either 3 or 9 direction and that is the tricky part. The original formula has a different number to divide by according to each clock face direction, but I am not smart enought to remember all of those and I simply take half of the 1000 result and apply that if I think the wind is comning from say either 2 o'clock or 10 o'clock. I have shot enough that the wind speed is not a problem for me, but flags, leaves, smoke, cloud cover, etc. help in the direction issue. I don't concern myself with what the wind is doing beyond the first third of the bullets flight, can't make the bullet alter it's course once in flight anyway and the first third has the most impact on the flight of the bullet. In NRA Long Range registered matches, long range begins at 600 to 1000 and in those matches I would also adjust elevation when I adjust for wind based on the winds direction. A strong full value wind of say 10 to 14 mph would require either an up or down elevation of the sights. Most rifles are right hand twist and if wind from the right, bullet will tend to climb, from the left, bullet will tend to drop. A bit tricky but I will add or subtract a click or two in those instances to compensate. By not doing the elevation adj. the bullet will go out of the 10 ring and end up a high or low 7 or 8. System has worked for me nearly 40 years and stumbled my way to High Master Long Range using it. Told you I was slow. Give it a try next time shooting long range whether from supported or the old fashion way, sling/prone with peep sights. | |||
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Gotta know your range conditions. Even then, you are going to be lucky if your wind call puts your first bullet in the ten ring. I have shot at enough ranges to know that wind conditions are not uniform from place to place nor do they look the same. Which is another reason I don't believe in long range hunting. Your wind call on your "fouling shot" is very likely to wound, not kill. | |||
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RC - Of f course I read it. And I thought "One of the first things a rifleman learns is to make sure his sights are reasonably dead plumb, both scopes and iron sights". But to tell you the truth, it may not matter if the sights are off plumb a small bit as long as he shoots the same rifle when the chips are down as he did when learning to read the wind. If his dope book (and/or memory) tells him a target at 1,000 yards requires 37-1/2 MOA elevation and 2-1/4 MOA left windage as a wind-free center zero, then it doesn't matter whether his sights are plumb or not, now does it? That is what it takes one way or the other. So if he recognizes that the wind he sees along that distance right now requires 7-1/2 MOA right windage and only 36-3/4 MOA elevation to hit center target, that's still what it's gonna take with HIS rifle and hold, in that wind condition. While it may be true that with some rifles with dead-center plumb sights it might only take 5-1/2 MOA of right windage, and only down to 37 minutes elevation, he isn't shooting that other rifle. He is shooting his own. And his will teach him what he needs to do with IT to make hits in given conditions at every distance, if he lets it. No complicated theory involved. Just plain old recorded or remembered experience. Like I said before, anyone can make all this as complicated as they want. Or they can simplify it and go shooting. I like the K.I.S.S. approach myself. Hasta Luego...gotta go do some stuff in my shop. | |||
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MFD: I hate a wind from 12 or 6 oclock - it is far harder to hit at long range than a wind from 3 or 9. a wind at 5:30 or 6:30 will absolutely blow your bullet left or right. Rare is the wind that never shifts direction, but the effect of a wind shifting from 8:30 to 9:30 has way, way less effect than one shifting from 5:30 to 6:30. I love the comment "the wind was coming in at 135 degrees at 7 mph." Where is this guy shooting? Yesterday I was shooting in the desert; man, the wind was left to right, then right to left, died, then gusted to 10 mph on Kestrel, blah blah. One thing I have found is the wind will always have a greater effect than the measured speed, at least where i shoot. Except on a pancake flat rifle range, your bullet will fly several feet higher than the wind you are measuring. it is very true when shooting over a canyon or between two hills. As slamfire said, every range is different. you can quickly get mesmerized over your own greatness shooting at the same location over and over. | |||
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I have the PDA, whether station etc, tools really. To me, learning to read the wind is an continuous education. In the field Im finding myself evaluating wind,valleys, faces basically any obstacle that will in my mind make a significant difference to the direction or strengh to the wind more and more, before I squeeze the trigger. I evaluated a 1100 yrd shot for 15 mins on Saturday before even loading my rifle, just to try and get an idea of what the wind was doing, AND........ MISSED! got my left and right on the money, even took into account lift(up a face) but not enough by 2 MOA yep,22". Why, more wind there than I thought, or did the bullet enter a less denser air contribute to the error, who knows, but what ever it was it was constant. Second shot was on the money, complete pass through front shoulders on a well built billy, with my 284 WIN and 162 AMax. STOKED!! Back on subject, reading the wind is a main contributing factor to why I enjoy this sport/activity, I love it when I get it right, and if I dont,I try and learn/understand why it went wrong. Regards RUNAS War is inevitable, if idiots are in charge of countries | |||
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Hello Another AZ Writer, Well, not sure I understand your thinking that a wind from either 6 or 12 o'clock directions would have far more impact on the flight of the bullet than one from the 3 or 9 o'clock directions?? The 3 and 9 is considered "full value" winds as opposed to other directions or 1/2 or even 1/4 value. Checking on dope sheets, wind charts, etc. the adjustment required for other than 3 or 9 are less which would indicate less impact than more. | |||
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If a guy has hundreds of rifles like yourself and all the scopes are mounted differently.... I'm sure you don't shoot only one rifle.
A 9 or 3 wind does have more effect BUT if a 12 or 6 wind shifts even slightly, you miss. Say you are holding left edge on a 800 yard target for a 6'oclock wind (6:15?). The wind barely shifts to 5:45 and you miss left...the wind shifts minutely and you have to be on the other side of the target to make a hit! On a 90 degree crossing L to R wind, at least you know which side of the target you have to be on! | |||
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I'm going to totally agree with Rick here. I'd rather have a solid 3 or 9 wind than a 6 or 12. Where I shoot just south of Price, Utah at the North Spring complex we sometimes get switchy winds between 11 and 1 or 5 and 7. If you're not on top of the wind just before you drop the pin, it will switch on you and your on the other side of the target if not off it. I've heard a lot of groaning immediately after the shot from other shooters. Alan  | |||
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I have shot with Emil at Oak Ridge, TN and he is an excellent shooter and very nice fellow to boot. Emil's formula resulted in 4moa adjustment for a Full Value wind at 9 o'clock whereas my formula would result in 4.8moa adj. The formula, whichever one you use, is only a rule of thumb and a judgment the shooter must make in reading the wind at long range. It is virtually impossible to absolutely determine the direction of the wind and obviously there will be some corrections required in adjustments after your first shot down range and as conditions change. I noted in Emil's comments that a 12 o'clock wind has little bearing on the flight of the bullet. Same holds true from 6 o'clock. Would further point out that in attempting to "dope the wind" from other than 3 or 9 direction I generally will take either a 40-60% reduction in correction. Flags are at best a basic indictor of wind speed and direction but if it rained the night before and flags left out, they react entirely different than when dry. Old trick, but if you are shooting with those of Master or High Master ratings, let them shoot first and see where they end up. Shooters of this skill level can read the wind and is good indicator whether you have selected the right amount of correction windage wise. Mirage is one of the best ways to determine what the wind is doing and you can adjust accordingly. I back focus my spotting scope, Kowa, to something near half way and take a reading on mirage from that distance. If you have been seeing mirage all along and it should disappear, might want to hold up for wind has most likely approached or exceeded 10mph, flat line if you will. If mirage indicates a "boil" don't shoot for it will result in bullet rise and take you most likely out of the 10 ring. All of these things have helped me over the years, but the shooter in prone/sling/iron sights has a lot of human factors to deal with in breathing, eyesight, pulse rate, fatigue, etc. | |||
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As Speedy say's "the wind is your friend"! This is of course if you know how to read it lol! | |||
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