quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
...Holding over with second focal plane "ballistic reticles" is not even close. These "ballistic reticles" are set up in "yards". They do not match every load, or any load for that matter. ...

Not to disagree , but I've found just the exact 100% opposite to be True in the Southeastern USA. Perhaps it is different over in N.M.

If I go out and verify the Drop Rate by actual shooting(without the use of a telephone ) I can see where ANY LOAD Impacts and create a Drop Chart just for that specific Load, doesn't matter what it is.

So, I really do not understand what R is saying or thinking in the above quote - unless he is just totally 100% WRONGO! (Your appology is accepted just like Mr. Woods. )
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To go Hunting without actually verifying the real Drop Rate by shooting at the distance a person intends to take shots at Game is unethical at best and a sure sign of a complete Rookie.

A ballistic reticle is just a multi-stadia reticle composed of nonrepeating units of subtension. I've never seen one yet that matches perfectly to provide an intuitive hundred-yd. system as designed.

Here's my system for the 60 gr. JLK Low Drag out of a Savage Striker using the Nikon Encore BDC reticle as calcd. and tested (dope is in the upper right corner)--

quote:

To go Hunting without actually verifying the real Drop Rate by shooting at the distance a person intends to take shots at Game is unethical at best and a sure sign of a complete Rookie.

Unfortunately this describs about 90% of average hunters and I completely agree.

quote:

HC says:
If I go out and verify the Drop Rate by actual shooting(without the use of a telephone ) I can see where ANY LOAD Impacts and create a Drop Chart just for that specific Load, doesn't matter what it is.

quote:

woods says:
Why do all the target shooters like turrets? Like bikers who wear leather and have tattoos, it's part of the schtick!

You guys really need to put your "theories" to the test out here at the SRM. It would be fun!

quote:

Originally posted by sscoyote:
A ballistic reticle is just a multi-stadia reticle composed of nonrepeating units of subtension. I've never seen one yet that matches perfectly to provide an intuitive hundred-yd. system as designed.

Completely agree.
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Hey R, I don't see a thing wrong with Crankin - if you have the time to consult your phone, then get it Cranked in, verify the Cranks. reverify the distance to the Game(which has now walked 73yds farther away), reconsult the phone, recrank, reverify the Cranks(Did I Crank for closer or farther ???), etc.....

Have to agree with rcamuglia and HC, have a scope with repeatable adjustments and dial in the elevation. I spent many happy years shooting long range on small ground squirrels with a .223 and rock chucks with 6mm Rem and a 6.5-280. I used fixed powder 10 and 12s and used hold over with guestimated ranges. Succes was increased at 3+ shots. Did drop tests and had Lee dots put in for hold over, still was guessing but success increased at 2+ shots. Got the 1st T10 and T16 in Oregon and used them after test/zeroing at ranges to 600 yards with .223 and 1000 yards with 6.5-280 and then dialing in the range. Success went to 1+ shots with boring regularity.

With the availability of range finders I've gotten to where I won't shoot a ground squirrel closer than 250 yards with the .223 (these are the very small Belding or Columbian ground squirrels many times referred to as "gophers" or "picket pins". The California or rock squirrels are not shot under 300 yards. Rock chucks were sought only beyond 500 yards.

Same holds true for target shooting at long range; no one who expects to win or even shoot well uses hold off. With Iron or scopes sight adjustments are always used. That is as in precision shooting. You can get away with hold off in some sniper scenarios where the target area is large (a standing man) but as the target area gets smaller sight adjustment is the only way to go for positive 1st shot hits.

Larry Gibson

With the rig above i was out hunting coyotes on the same day i shot that PD pictured. On the way back to the truck, i spotted a mange dog loping along. I flipped open my stadium seat went into the sitting position, and pulled out the bipod legs. I got as steady a position as possible, and watched the dog. He was alerted and kept skirting my position. He finally came to a small rise and line of trees, and stopped momentarily on top of the rise. I lasered him at 375 as quickly as i could, referenced the zero for that range (1.7 subtension units) and as i was acquiring the dog in the optic i barked at him to try and keep him there for the next couple seconds as i've hunted them enough to know what they're habits usually are. Luckily he did just that and i got a quick calcd. shot off and nailed him. If i'd have been running a turret for that shot i probably wouldn't have had the extra couple seconds to set it for the correct range. I used to use turrets for coyote hunting (as my buddy above also does), but 90% of our long shots are reticled, since it provides for the fastest accurate system of long range application there is--not as accurate as turret but accurate enough for most of the intermediate range shots i've encountered on game.

Buddy mentioned above and an alerted 500-yarder that gave us just enough time to laser and shoot--

i've been following along as there is SO much to learn, and it seems my methods are alittle
primitive.(no offense taken)
with nearly 1300 handloaded rds fired out of the 1st barrel
and just over 180 out of the replacement. (rifle was new in 2002,new barrel dec 09')
"Practice" is my first and foremost rule.
the rifle is physically printed and the table
noted. 1" high @ 100 yds zero
i shoot everything with this one rifle and same handload and know the "withers to brisket"
dimensions of every creature i pursue.
the chosen point of impact is the centerline of this measurement.
if i can't get closer and the setup allows
i use the animals body measurement as the "hold over graduation and so far this method has
worked.
with 20 big game animals including the bear taken at excess of 500 yds.of these only 3 @600+
dial up scopes were rare on hunting rifles in 2002 and not being able to marry a scope EXACTLY to my shooting data led me to this method.
long range game animals taken verse overall shots fired equate to 1 per 95-100 rds and start my "long range" at 500+yds.
i feel this is an acceptable method of long range shooting/hunting.
i read with interest the other ways and means and try and keep up with the "tech talk"
the knowledge offered and available keeps me coming back for more.
as an after thought to blabbing all this,
i missed that bear with the first shot, but i think we all miss.
whether dial up or hold over.

Ha--well said sir.

IMO, guys that have experience with a certain system oughtta' speak up here and provide their input. There are a lot of eyes reading these forums and if some system fits some guys way of hunting/shooting then maybe we've helped in some way.

One thing's for sure multi-stadia reticles and turrets are becoming more popular every day. Detailing ALL the various methods to apply them might enlighten someone who may not know or wants to know more.

Believe me, if you dial data, the only way you will miss is by misjudging windage.

Long range shooting is all about the wind after you develop an accurate load and confirm ballistic drop data by actual shooting. It will never change except for altitude and atmospheric conditions and even with those changes, the changes are minimal.

I have a buddy who won the Steel Safari 2010 and used the same drop chart hanging from his scope from January to September.


It's nice to only have one thing to worry about.

Wind... With a reticle for hold off set in MOA or Mils... Your printed data tells you very accurately what the hold off is.

Not inches! MOA OR MILS. Judging inches at 500 + yards in your scope is SO imprecise with a reticle with NO graduations!

Hey woods!?

Do you take thingy measurements with instruments that have no reference marks!?

Bring your shooting precision up to your level of handloading precision! Abandon BWDT shooting!
I'll be your shooting Sensei!
Remember, I'm a SHOOTER...

For target shooting as Rick, Larry, AS and other experienced guys point out, dialling is the only way to go.

Hunting is a little different in that definitions may vary.

Personally hunting is about stalking to get close but to able to deal with the occasional long shot if need be. So for this I limit my range to whatever the distance I feel comfortable compensating by hold-over because Id on't like the idea that if I am on a high value hunt somewhere wild with none of my fancy kit, I would still be able to make a tricky shot using nothing more than my rifle and my backpack. A tad romantic and perhaps even a little silly for sure, but think of Ander's Tajik hunt as an example of what I'm getting at.

Varminting, in the American sense, as we do it over here is more like target shooting and so I dial in.

The only real disagreement seems to be in terms of how to account for windage. I have been reading with interest the pros and cons of the holding off vs the dialling in methods on this thread.

I think I'll bite the bullet and buy a mildot scope to try the holding off method as I have always dialled.

I readily accept that it is faster but I am having difficulty accepting that the method would be more accurate than dialling, though from my reading with a mildot reticle one can hold to a quarter minute resolution with them.

Do I have that right?

Here is a link to a thread on using Mil-Dot Reticles. Once a person understands they can be used in "inches" or used in "metric", as the person desires, their versitility for Hunting is difficult to beat. Only real issue is if the "Dot" ends up being too big for the intended Game - like a P-Dog, Rabbit, etc. way out yonder.

I agree they are not as Precise as Crankin, but they are an exponential Faster in Field use.

Plus, if you think you need to "Hold-into-the-Wind" more than 2-Mil-Dots, then there is no ethical shot anyhow.
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And R put instructions in the thread on "How to use a Phone".

Thanks HC, that was a very informative thread.

I think I'll leave the iPhone at home when I go hunting, I do have a friend who would have a good deal in common with our friend RC who once took an iPad up into a stand after a very small variety of deer we in abundance here. The chest kill zone is about 3-4" across rather than the usual 8-10" of the larger species.

At almost last knockings one stepped out about 150 yards away which is like shooting a whitetail sized deer at 350-400 yards my buddy go his ipad to do the calc on his gucci kit and looked up to find out he'd buggered up his night vision and couldn't see the deer in the scope!

Oh how we tormented him!

C'mon guys.

I know it's funny to imagine and rib me about, but I don't and would never whip out my PDA-run ballistic program on a hunt.

I use a printed data card taped to my stock. I use parameters (atmospheric and location) as close as I think I can get to what will be actual.

Like th coyote I shot at 930, we ranged him, I simply looked at the data on the stock and dialed it in, aimed and fired. There is plenty of time to do this at the ranges we are talking about; Long range. For targets, it's the only way to go as the don't run away before you can get your act together.

Hold over advocates say they do so for quick shots. This tells me that the animal is aware of you, moving or about to move into cover.

I can understand that and agree. The rifle in the picture that is the Long Range forum's banner is mine. I have it and a few others set up for that very purpose. The scope is a Leupold VX3 6.5x20 LR side focus 30mm tube 50mm objective and has the Varmint Hunter's Reticle. It also has target knobs. Depending on the situation I can hold over with the reticle or dial.

I have done both at the range for side by side comparison like I asked all here to do to actually see the difference in accuracy for yourself.

The scope has little triangles as witness marks on the power adjustment ring. The owner's manual tells what the distances between the aimpoints are in MOA. They are spot on as I have checked them on a perfectly marked board (in MOA and Mils) that my gunsmith uses for precision scope mounts. I then check the printed drop data for my load that corresponds to the distance between each aimpoint. I make a second range card or little hand drawn picture of the reticle itself and write what the aimpoints are in yards for the load.

I have found this to be a more accurate and simple way to use the reticle. Instead of shooting lots of ammo trying to find the sight in range and power setting that makes the reticle "fit" the load in perfect little 100 yard increments, I use a 200 yard -0- for the rifle and write on the pic for the other aimpoints.

To use the reticle for holdover, the power setting has to be perfect or it will throw the aimpoint's accuracy off. Second focal plane reticle.

Dialing works on any power setting perfectly.

My first choice is to dial but I can holdover accurately with this method. Range the target, check the reticle picture for aimpoint values, aim and fire.

I have found that dialing the windage into the scope while holding over is a whole lot more accurate than trying to figure out what it is in inches at the target. You can keep the target on the vertical reticle and not have to hold off in "outer space" of the lower right or left quadrant of the scope's FOV.

You can minimize the error of ballistic reticle by zeroing at 500 yards using the 500 yard holding point. If it creates too much error at 200 yards, you can zero instead for 400. That will generally allow you to use the aiming points out to at least 400.

I honestly don't have a problem using the B&C reticle on my .338 Win Mag. Worked perfectly last Oct to take a big Yukon moose. Granted, the range wasn't long (280 yards), and that is a huge target, but it works. But then again, I shoot painted rocks with this gun out to 500 yards as practice.

I would agree that holding off into space is a bad idea. I shoot my .22 rimfire at a gong at 200 yards quite a bit; it requires a ton of holdover for wind and elevation. I have found that I can calculate where to hold, then pick a spot (like a rock on the berm behind the gong, etc.) to aim. Works pretty well, although not so sure it would work on an animal.