I have never really warmed up to long range shooting for long range shooting's sake but after my Coues deer hunt this last January in Sonora I can see the need to be able hold dead on at 400-500 yards and just pull the trigger.

I've looked at a few long range scopes and I used a Nightforce 5.5x22 in Sonora. I personally didn't care for the Nightforce for a number of reasons. What do you guys think of the Leupold 30 mm 3x18 with 56 mm objective. It would seem it would cover all the bases at about half the price of the Nightforce.

Mark

Mark:

I use both Nightforce and Leupold. Nightforce is a lot heavier. I like it best because I can see mirage slightly better than a Leupold (although not as well as using my spotting scope focused close).

In terms of W/E adjustments, they all work fine; I have mil dot reticles in all my 6.5-20X scopes. At 20X the 1 mil dot subtends 2 MOA and comes in handy for holding off in the wind. I went shooting Sunday and guessed the wind at 3 MOA on a target at 720 yards; worked perfectly. The next shot the wind died.

To really shoot at long range you need to learn how to read mirage. I think a good spotting scope is worth more than a good rifle scope, JMO.

My brother just sent me pics of some shooting he did at 330 yards with 155 scenars in his pedestrian Tikka 30 06. Group was 1.5 inches slightly right due to wind. He uses an older leupold straight 6 scope with the CDS turret and just dials for dollars. I shot the same rifle at 500 yards and was easily able to hit the 12x12 steel. Holding 'on' versus 'over' makes a huge difference in shooting long, In this case more than just raw magnification power in my opinion.

I'm looking into a 300 Win and will put a 3.5 to 10 VX3 with a CDS and think that should be good for up to 500. You can get the CDS made to match your trajectory and marked similarly.

Good luck!

I shoot F-Class every weekend, most guys are using a Nightforce target scope.

Honestly I think a guy is better off with a retical based hunting system like the Burris laser scope than trying to learn turrets for one hunt.

Especially if you shoot factory ammo.

If you are a far gone rifle crank, and long range shooting, is something you want to do all the time, I think it's worth learning dope.

Personally for me in hunting I use the H58 reticle from Horus, I have a number of different scopes with this reticle but it was easy to learn.

I prefer this method to dialing in dope.

I use both methods as I haven't had the finances to switch to 100% Horus Reticles in all my rifles.

go Nightforce or go home. Everything else is second best.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
My brother just sent me pics of some shooting he did at 330 yards with 155 scenars in his pedestrian Tikka 30 06. Group was 1.5 inches slightly right due to wind. He uses an older leupold straight 6 scope with the CDS turret and just dials for dollars. I shot the same rifle at 500 yards and was easily able to hit the 12x12 steel. Holding 'on' versus 'over' makes a huge difference in shooting long, In this case more than just raw magnification power in my opinion.

I'm looking into a 300 Win and will put a 3.5 to 10 VX3 with a CDS and think that should be good for up to 500. You can get the CDS made to match your trajectory and marked similarly.

Good luck!

Every Friday morning I shoot at the Phoenix Rod and Gun club at 500 yards. I shoot sitting with a bipod and have no trouble hitting the gongs at that range. With no wind my pedestrian X Bolt in .308 will keep four shots under one MOA (again, shooting sitting with a bipod). Last Friday I looked at the flags and knew it was at least a 2 MOA wind. First shot was 3 inches left. Like I said, factory gun, not even bedded. Wears a March scope and shoots 180 grain bullets.

My only complaint about shooting range practice is the wind is a lot easier due to the flags. After a while you just know where to hold. In the field, it is a lot harder.

I don't use custom turrets; I simply tape label stock on my turrets and mark the range that way. works great, and easy to change if needed.

Nightforce makes excellent scopes but most are second focal plane and the ranging/holdover feature only works at one magnification setting.

Schmidt and Benders are first focal plane scope so the ranging/holdover feature is not affected by the power setting.

I will zip my lip on shooting at any big game at 500 yards, as it will just provoke a row from the very few who can actually do it and the many who shoot off legs etc because they think they can.

Get a 4-16x50 Schmidt with the Number 8 Varmint reticle. Learn the dots for holdover and hold off with your rifle/cartridge combo and you will be quick on the draw with no knob twiddling or calculations.

What works on P-dogs in a 22-250 @500 yards will work just great on big game taken at ethical ranges.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I have never really warmed up to long range shooting for long range shooting's sake but after my Coues deer hunt this last January in Sonora I can see the need to be able hold dead on at 400-500 yards and just pull the trigger.

I've looked at a few long range scopes and I used a Nightforce 5.5x22 in Sonora. I personally didn't care for the Nightforce for a number of reasons. What do you guys think of the Leupold 30 mm 3x18 with 56 mm objective. It would seem it would cover all the bases at about half the price of the Nightforce.

I had a Nightforce 4.5-22X scope and got rid of it mainly because of the weight and size. I still have a Nightforce 3.5-15X scope which is OK but it isn't the one I use the most.

The scopes I like and use the most are Leupold Mark 4 scopes; I prefer the TMR reticle but the Mil Dot reticle is OK as well. I use the Mark 4 with the 4.5-14X magnification range but my favorite is the 3.5-10X with the M3 turrets.

The M3 turrets give 1/2 MOA windage and 1 MOA elevation adjustments. You may think the adjustments aren't close enough but turrets with 1/2 MOA adjustments with get you within 1/4 MOA of where you want to be while 1 MOA adjustments will get you within 1/2 MOA. If you really need to get closer than that you also need a benchrest gun. At least for me, a 3.5-10X scope is all I would need for 400 to 500 yard shots on a big game animal.

You can also get custom turrets made for use with Leupold's 3.5-10X Mark 4 scopes. These are very fast to use especially with the M3 turrets. You just determine the rang and then turn the turret to the needed range. I had some made for my favorite 223 Remington load and can testify that the turrets work at 400 yards with is about as far as I can shoot on my property.

As far as the first focal plane vs second focal plane controversy goes; I wouldn't worry about it. I suspect you'll be using a range finder anyway so won't need to range the animal with the reticle.

While ranging with SFP scopes is an issue, holdover is a bigger issue. As you change the power the distance between bar/dots/circles changes as the magnification are changed.
IMHO this is a major handicap. While punching paper, banging gongs or popping P-dogs you have time to figure out these variables but big game may not hang around for calculations or knob twiddling.
As I said before, the most practical scope reticle combination made IF shooting beyond 300 yards at big game is on your table is the 4-16x50 Schmidt and Bender with this reticle.



It is simple, FFP, and useful for everything from small varmints to big game, It is also bulletproof and can be used to pound in tent stakes.

All that said MOST hunters should not attempt shots past 400 yards and 300 is better. A modern flat shooting rifle, say a 300 Winmag, sighted it at 3" high @100 will kill any big game out to 300 with a plain old fixed 6X scope and a duplex reticle.

One wonders how JOC and the other giants of big game hunting ever killed anything with simple low fixed power scopes. I think I know, but I don't wish to start a flame war here.

Being a very good hunter and a very good shooter are not mutually exclusive. IMHO, if a choice were to be made, I would rather be known as the former than than the latter.

"There is no such thing as getting too close."

so your advising him to get a scope that has mil dot reticule, and you are saying to use turrets that are in MOA???? really, thats like talking in French and writing in German... Keep with a Mil reticule, then use Mil turrets. If you want to use MOA turrets, then use a MOA reticule. The average person will not range with the reticule... so FFP vs SFP...give me a break!

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I have never really warmed up to long range shooting for long range shooting's sake but after my Coues deer hunt this last January in Sonora I can see the need to be able hold dead on at 400-500 yards and just pull the trigger.

I've looked at a few long range scopes and I used a Nightforce 5.5x22 in Sonora. I personally didn't care for the Nightforce for a number of reasons. What do you guys think of the Leupold 30 mm 3x18 with 56 mm objective. It would seem it would cover all the bases at about half the price of the Nightforce.

I had a Nightforce 4.5-22X scope and got rid of it mainly because of the weight and size. I still have a Nightforce 3.5-15X scope which is OK but it isn't the one I use the most.

The scopes I like and use the most are Leupold Mark 4 scopes; I prefer the TMR reticle but the Mil Dot reticle is OK as well. I use the Mark 4 with the 4.5-14X magnification range but my favorite is the 3.5-10X with the M3 turrets.

The M3 turrets give 1/2 MOA windage and 1 MOA elevation adjustments. You may think the adjustments aren't close enough but turrets with 1/2 MOA adjustments with get you within 1/4 MOA of where you want to be while 1 MOA adjustments will get you within 1/2 MOA. If you really need to get closer than that you also need a benchrest gun. At least for me, a 3.5-10X scope is all I would need for 400 to 500 yard shots on a big game animal.

You can also get custom turrets made for use with Leupold's 3.5-10X Mark 4 scopes. These are very fast to use especially with the M3 turrets. You just determine the rang and then turn the turret to the needed range. I had some made for my favorite 223 Remington load and can testify that the turrets work at 400 yards with is about as far as I can shoot on my property.

As far as the first focal plane vs second focal plane controversy goes; I wouldn't worry about it. I suspect you'll be using a range finder anyway so won't need to range the animal with the reticle.

quote:

Originally posted by Alaskaman11:
so your advising him to get a scope that has mil dot reticule, and you are saying to use turrets that are in MOA???? really, thats like talking in French and writing in German... Keep with a Mil reticule, then use Mil turrets. If you want to use MOA turrets, then use a MOA reticule. The average person will not range with the reticule... so FFP vs SFP...give me a break!

No, actually I wasn't advising him to get a scope with a mil reticle but merely informing him of what I liked and what I didn't like so much. I happen to like Leupold Mark 4 with reticles in mils and turrets in MOA but I suppose that's too complicated for some as well.

Knob twiddling is not that complex but it does take time. Just watch a video of military sniper/spotter teams shooting at unknown ranges and time how long it takes to get off a shot.
The ragheads may be dumb enough to sit in one place waiting to be dispatched, most big game is not.
While I would never shoot at a big game animal at 500 yards, I have no problem ringing the gong out to 800 with the Schmidt I suggested. With a 20 MOA rail, I could go a lot farther.
If you are a hunter, you can kill any game in North America with a 30-06 and a 2,3 or 4X scope.
If you cannot, IMHO, you are a long range target shooter that uses live game rather than paper or gongs. Neither gongs or paper have the bad habit of moving out of sight while you are twiddling knobs or, even worse, taking a step as you press the trigger.
In the lust for technology many seem to think they can substitiute machines for the correct use of cover, camo, wind reading and always getting as close as possible. Look at Military sniper training and compare how much time is spent sending rounds downrange vs remaining unseen by the target.
As one who has killed an Elk at 18 paces with a 61 caliber flinter and an Antelope at 90 paces with a 45 caliber percussion rifle, I know it can be done and it is far more satisfying than sitting 800 yards away where, if the animal is lucky you will miss, and if not the wolves, bears or yotes will have another three legged deer/elk/antelope to pull down and eat alive.
Yes, I value the humanity of ethical killing of big game far more than of the inhumanity of shooting off one of Achmed's legs.
Long range shooting is great fun as long as it is limited to paper, gongs or humans. Once you grab your "truck gun" AR and "handle" a situation of three Yotes eating a cripped Mulie alive, you gain a new perspective on what is hunting and what is not.
Good shooting !

I bought a Vortex Viper HS LR 4-16X44mm yesterday for $550. It has a drop compensation reticle and .5 MOA elevation adjustments for fast adjustment if one wants to go that way.

Look at the March 2.5X25. Or you could use any of several models. Top of the line and pricey.
http://www.deon.co.jp/march/index.html

You really are not comparing a Jap scope from a company in business for a few years to a Schmidt and Bender are you ?

Don't see any March scopes on USMC sniper rifles.......

Swaro, Zeiss, Schmidt ...... they have no equals except each other.