For ranges out to 200 yards, I am thinking the 400-grain .458 Barnes Buster might be about as good as it gets for elk.
Glad to hear your opinions, gentlemen.

The HSM “bear load” is a 430 grain +p load. It is a very hard cast bullet with a wide meplat that would be very effective on elk. I used it to take a moose at about 100 yards. One shot and done. 200 yards might be a stretch.

Hunting load for my .45-70 Marlin is the 400gr Buster at 1800 fps muzzle speed. Have used Hornady 350gr and Remington 405gr with good results on Moose except penetration could be better. The Buster should be an excellent penetrator.

4sixteen, that's some nice ballistic software. Thanks for sharing the chart and photos.
Digital, I'll look at that HSM load as well. Are you out around Dundee or McMinnville? Old Salem boy here.

Bill,
contact Phil Shoemaker, 458 on AR...He uses the 45-70 as a Brown Bear stopper in his daily routine and evening walks with family..He uses a production load, popular in the USA, but I can't recall off hand what it is but its very popular about everywhere..Phil or family has killed griz, browns, and black bear with it Im pretty sure..He posted somewhere around AR about this bullet or loaded ammo..He is prett high on it..

I used the 45-70 and the 45-90 (my favorite) with the 350 gr. Hornady (designed for the .458 Im told)..I liked it best. I also used the Nosler partition, elk left a lot of tracks before recovery was my experience with the Nosler, normally by all time favorite bullet in calibers but not in the 45-70, better in the 45-90 perhaps or so it seemed..I love the rifles, but neither really suited me for elk, Id opt for a 50-100,110 or 140, or the biggest I could find in the 1886 I believe, be worth a try anyway.

Ray, speaking of the .45-90, friend and Shootist Jim Taylor is using the old Lyman 457191 bullet for the .45-90 drawn down to .452 in his heavy .45 Colt loads running just under 1200 fps (pressure tested at under 30,000 in a Ruger Blackhawk). That's a righteous hammer.

The 350 grain Hornady round nose worked great for me on hogs so it should do well on elk.

Remington 405gr JSN recovered from Bull Moose. Angle shot. Impact speed was about 1650 fps. Wide expansion limits penetration. However the Bull Moose dropped instantly.




Hornady 350gr RN's recovered from Bull Mooses. Impact speeds as noted. Going with the Buster from now on. Forgo expansion to punch straight through. Being a .45 the bullet doesn't have to expand much if at all.

Thanks for sharing those results, 4sixteen.

Bill,

Yes, I’m just outside McMinnville. The HSM load worked great on my moose and my hunting partner used my gun for his moose as well. Two shots, two moose. Both shots were pass throughs; no tracking required.

Swift has a 350 gr A-Frame that should work well for elk. Their factory load might be a little slow for 200 yd shots, though.

BH63

.458 400gr Swift A-Frames recovered from Elk. Impact speeds as noted. Bonded core. Less expansion more penetration.

^
Swift states the 350gr SAF in their 45-70 loading is designed to open up at lower velocities. Check their website for details.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDetective:
The HSM “bear load” is a 430 grain +p load. It is a very hard cast bullet with a wide meplat that would be very effective on elk. I used it to take a moose at about 100 yards. One shot and done. 200 yards might be a stretch.

I have to agree!!! Hard cast with a big meplat!
I use a 300grain Meister at 1850fps in my 450bpe. I have killed 3 elk with it. One shot and down! One Bull skidded about 10yds, as he was running pretty fast! That’s as far as any of them went after the shot. You don’t need expansion in a .458 bullet. At 45-70 velocity, you want penetration.

Missouri Bullet Co makes a .45 405 gr hard cast bullet; I shoot them in my Marlin .45/70. Would not be my choice to shoot an elk, but if it was in my hands I would not hesitate.

I am going to use the 350gr North Fork as my PG bullet in Zim in two months.

Hope to poke an Eland with it.

I bet that 350 NF would work great on Moose and Elk at top speed out of a 45/70.

I've shot a couple Eland with the 45/70 and 350 grn Horn flatpoint bullets. 2070 fps.
Shots were around 60-70 yds. They ran 30-40 yds and piled up. The same distance as the ones I've shot with .375 H&H, 8x68, 30-06 and so on.

The Barnes TSX is a great bullet. I don't know that I would use a solid in this instance (and the Buster has a tiny meplat). I would want to capitalize on internal destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by tarbe:
I bet that 350 NF would work great on Moose and Elk at top speed out of a 45/70.

Unfortunately they posted the other day on the Reloading forum that they are doing a going out of business sale and are done making bullets.


I've seen promising reports of the 405gr Remington. It is very light recoiling in the factory ammunition...and Freedom Group has limited the sale of reloading components.

I stocked up on the 430gr HSM Bear Load for my guide gun so that I had plenty in case I could not find it again

A guy used that in bear camp a couple of years ago. Although it killed the bear (about 35 yd shot) the core separated from the jacket.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
A guy used that in bear camp a couple of years ago. Although it killed the bear (about 35 yd shot) the core separated from the jacket.

BH63

400, 405, 350?

I have a whooping sample group of two critters with the Remington 405 grain FP. One a mule deer doe and the other a bull moose. The doe was about 65 yards and the bull about 35 yards. Both were broadside shots and both penetrated fully leaving fist sized exit wounds with chunks of lung hanging out the off side. The doe ran 20 yards and the moose dropped where he stood. I would use the same bullet again without hesitation on any NA game. The load was going 1700 fps.

I recently got back in the 45-70 game with a modern 1886 extra lightweight. And while I've not hunted it yet, I got well restocked with Remington 405 grain bullets.

Just to throw in my 2 cents into the mix, I've had pretty good luck so far with 405 grain Woodleigh's. They have good initial shock but still penetrate well. I know they flatten big black bears but I haven't shot an elk with them. I shoot them out of a Marlin 1895 GBL.

At any rate good luck and shoot a big one with whatever you choose!

quote:

Originally posted by Sevastopol:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
A guy used that in bear camp a couple of years ago. Although it killed the bear (about 35 yd shot) the core separated from the jacket.

BH63

400, 405, 350?

The Remington 405 gr My bad!

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Just to throw in my 2 cents into the mix, I've had pretty good luck so far with 405 grain Woodleigh's. They have good initial shock but still penetrate well. I know they flatten big black bears but I haven't shot an elk with them. I shoot them out of a Marlin 1895 GBL.

At any rate good luck and shoot a big one with whatever you choose!

What sort of powder do you use and how much velocity do you manage?

I've got the Woodleigh 405gr bullets but find, with my Winchester/Miroku '86, that the cannelure is too far back to crimp on unless I use the short Hornady brass. Otherwise they touch the rifling ... unless I crimp ahead of the cannelure with the Lee 'Factory-crimp' die. Either way, I expect powder space to become a problem if I get too far up the loadings.

Make sure they are the 405 grain version made for the 45-70. Velocity was around 1850(?). Actually Buffalo Bore uses the same bullet in they're loading. I would have to look at the exact load used. I'm not able to do that right now - sorry.

Paul, you no doubt have the Woodleigh manual. I see loads for H4198 and AR2207 getting that bullet to 2,000, and Benchmark and Bench Mark 2 getting to 1985 in Geoff's loads for the Marlin 1895.

Thanks guys, I don't have Woodleigh's manual (but can check it) and have got the ADI one, which probably has similar loads. I have got AR2207, which is the same as H4198, and it does seem to show the highest velocities.

Paul, the Woodleigh manual shows a starting load of 46 grains of AR 2207 giving 1,850, and a maximum load of 50.5 giving 2,000 at Marlin pressures.

Bill and all:
Do any of you have the pressures for the 400 grain bullet load at 2000 fps?

I am about to begin tinkering some Rem 405 grainers toward regulation in my .45-70 double rifle.

Sources vary. Norma .45-70 data lists 29,000 (seems too high for Springfield rifles??), 43,500 (modern lever rifles?) and 58,000 psi (Ruger No.1) maximum pressures. Speer modern Marlin 1895 data is held to 28,000 CUP. Hornady modern Marlin 1895 data is held to 40,000 psi. SAAMI-specified maximum pressure is 28,000 CUP / 28,000 psi.

Hodgdon:





Woodleigh modern Marlin 1895 data is likely held to ~40,000 psi?

https://www.norma-ammunition.c...overnment-43500-psi/

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Paul, the Woodleigh manual shows a starting load of 46 grains of AR 2207 giving 1,850, and a maximum load of 50.5 giving 2,000 at Marlin pressures.

Thanks Bill, yes, the ADI manual shows suspiciously similar numbers.

Nick Harvey (Australia's most-enduring gun scribe) exactly the same figures as ADI, so to what extent some writers test their own loads makes me wonder. ADI doesn't specify cases or primers, though - does Woodleigh?

Thanks 4sixteen -
As you say, sources do seem to vary (unless they are merely copies).

I will load on the safe side as I am not presently using my .45-70 DR for DG. Whatever modest velocities and pressures make it regulate with 400-405 grain hunting bullets will suffice for hogs and deer sized critters.

My .45-70 Traditions Outfitter G2 is a break action and could have comparable action strength to a double. No published load data for this rifle so I was on my own with load development. Has a rather short throat and would get higher muzzle speeds if the bullets could be seated less deep for more case capacity.

Safely gets higher muzzle speeds than my .45-70 Marlin with a 350gr. With my rifle if the action is opened partially and the fired case drops out under gravity I think the load should be relatively low pressure.

416,
Nice looking rifle and loaded cartridge.
Also target. You have a winner there.

Does that multi holed barrel end light up the forest at night? Or, can you use it to light a cigar?

Cigar lighter works quite well. Removable.

That looks like a hell of a capable rifle, 4sixteen. Do you know if Bergara made the barrel?
That Speer 350 at 2100 plus will do for just about anything, anywhere.

Whoops -- just looked it up and the barrel is by Lothar Walther. No flies on that outfit.

Paul, the Woodleigh manual does not specify case brand or primer make. It does specify the three load levels, but does not show any low-pressure loads for the Trapdoor -- just the Marlin 1895 and Ruger No. 1, and then Ruger No. 1 only load levels. The latter get that 405-grain bullet to 2100 fps.

Made by Ardesa -





Rather like this rifle. Decent trigger. Stowable and totes nicely. Weighs only 6.8 lbs as shown.

That's the same weight as the Henry single shot without scope. I'll bet it shoves you around a little with the 350 at 2100.