I injured my left hand today with a marlin lever gun, and custom load.. the gun looks more like a helicopter than a gun at this time. It would take me tremendous time to take photos butall the doctor and nurses were amazed and took photos of it.. the rear panels on the sides of the reciever were blown back, its wierd to see the insertion port at a 30 degree angle to the line of sight.. the left panel is at a 90 degree angle to the barrel, peeled back to the safty button... the saftey button appears to be functioning, the bar that is dadoed into the bolt being very sturdy is in tact and kept the bolt from entering my brain. the bolt flops like a leaf in the wind.. the barrel at the breach exploded and split at the thread neatly at the top and bottom.. the reciever is split down the center on top and neatly in a perfectly strait line.. the magazin is buldged down and has look as if it had been shot, it hit my wrist very hard and may have saved my wrist and hand.. the forearm is in a thousand pieces and arround the range floor and tiny peices probably in my wrist and up and down my arm.. the doctor says it will be working out with puss for some time.. He said there is a 1 percent chance i could loose my hand and arm due to infection..altho im typing with it now.. If marlin is listening do not lessen the strenglth quality of the magazine tube..
the problem is puzzeling becouse it acted like a double charge but i check all strait cases with a flashlight, altho my eyes coould have deceved me but i think not..
othe more probable possible causes,
25 grains 57 44 book velocity is 1199 or so and i was getting 1360 with minimum load.. primers showed little if any flattening, there was a firing pin indent.. small but normal looking, maybe not normal i dont know.. Another shooter at the range when i drove up to pu some gear i forgot said it looked like there was some primer leaking in previous shells. the blown case is in heaven..
the bullet was 500 grain rcbs gc an excelent bullet and first time out with it.. .460 diameter and 14 brinell. I was excieted becouse the other 500 grain lyman mould i tried after over a year of experimented finnally stopped the leading.. 400 grain bullets leaded with brinell up to amazing hardness. . wheel weights with 10 percednt tin dropped in cold water after maximum heat in oven just below sluming would not stop the leading.. 500 grain less velocity and more grooves stopped the leading.. The gun was accurized by me with mcphearsons book and took many months, with butt thru bolt and the works, it shot very excelent.
Other possible foolish problems with what i thought was a minimum load was a .460 diameter bullet 509 grains nosed into the rifling, and 25 bullets fired with breach leading but visible at this time. it does not look severe..

becouse the cap key is difficult for me i will not use it any more..
nosing the bullet into the rifile with a hard bullet, and not trimmed cases for a while, and not suspecting high pressures becouse the velocity was not in line with book velocities are certainly suspect but the barrel extra legth was suspect for the extra velocity.. I accept the responsibility for the accident and do not blame anyone else but me.. the gun came totally apart but did its job in protecting me..

i am surprised it happened tho becouse others are using much higher velocity.. ive always blamed the bullsey blowups that totally denie double charges on a double charge. That is why my dillon used for pistols has a powder check.. how do you profess you didnt have a double charge if you didnt find it?.

im not one to carry on about this, i know you probably have a thousand questions but will probably not return here for some time.. im giving this for your knowledge and to help someone from having a more serous accident.. I drove myself to the doctor, and remembered later a marine friend used to call me a dinasore becouse i would not jump when he made large noises at the archery range.. it amusesed him and he repeated it to my dismay..
the nurse said shock comes from loss of blood or sheer stress..
good luck to you all and dont assume all is safe.. I have a fantastic family and they are helping and praying for me.. dave (im not going to correct this so accept it as it is as im gettng tired from the medicine and long day.)

I do not believe the muzzel was obstructed becouse it was forming a 2 1/2 inch group at 200 yards.. perfectly horizontal on a windy day open sights.. i had observed the last bullet hole with spotting scope.. The gun was one of my darlings of course (;<> unless you consider leading an obstrution.. It wAS THE first of series of heavy crimp loads.. as i load i sort the rounds into light, medium and heavy crimp.. 85 degrees third shot.. too much for the old girl someway..

That is quite odd. Thanks for your posts and warnings. Wishing you a speedy recovery

quote:

the barrel at the breach exploded and split at the thread neatly at the top and bottom.. the receiver is split down the center on top and neatly in a perfectly strait line

This is the weakest part of Marlin's 45-70. You can find internet postings of it happening every now and then.

NOTE: This is not a picture of fffg's rifle. It is one of several pictures of similar accidents available online.


A 45-70 barrel barely fits the 1895 receiver and the result is that, with the threads cut, the chamber walls are very thin - just a breath over 1/10th of an inch! The system has enough wall thickness for factory loads but if you reload and push the limit the thin chamber wall can give.

Base of 450 Marlin case (in front of case head) = 0.5030"
Base of 45-70 case = 0.5055"
Marlin barrel threads = Major diameter 0.775" minor diameter 0.715"

Therefore, at the threads:

Minimum chamber wall using 450 Marlin case (in front of case head) = 0.1060"
Minimum chamber wall using 45-70 case = 0.1047"

A little bit of metal can make a big difference.

The weakness is further discussed on the leverguns website and they offer one way to make the system a little stronger:

quote:

These Marlin rifles have what I would deem a design flaw. Perhaps surprisingly, this is not the rear-locking lug. Rather, it is the relatively small diameter of the barrel threads. When chambering modern cartridges, that work at modern pressures, having a case body diameter larger than about 0.47-inch (Mauser and 30-06 related chamberings, an interesting historical accident!) the weakest portion of these barreled-actions is the chamber, under the barrel threads.

Unfortunately, due to close proximity of the magazine port under the barrel, it is not particularly feasible to enlarge these threads. This is too bad, had John Marlin simply moved the magazine tube and loading port 0.050-inch farther below the barrel he could have enlarged the barrel threads by 0.1-inch and eliminated this weakness. The subsequent design would have worked perfectly without any other significant changes! And this does matter; early Marlins, with softer barrel steel, are prone to chamber swelling. Modern guns avoid this fate only because the steel used in the barrels has significantly increased tensile strength.

My solution to this weakness is to modify the Marlin thread, so that the thinnest portion of the chamber wall under the threads is as thick as is feasible without significantly weakening the receiver. To do this, I use a custom tool set built to my specifications by custom reamer maker Dave Manson. My friend, Ben Forkin (Forkin Custom Classics) originally persuaded Manson to make such a tool set. These tools reduce height of the unnecessarily tall square thread and true the factory cuts so that one can install a barrel with precisely fitting threads.

The improvement is significant. With a properly fitted barrel, thinnest portion of the chamber wall is about 0.035 inch thicker. This may not sound like much until one considers that, for example, in the factory 45-70 Marlin the thinnest portion of the chamber is only 0.100-inch thick! Moreover, with precise threads in the receiver, the gunsmith can fit the barrel threads so closely that the receiver can share the load. While such a design is not ideal (most manufacturers would prefer not to rely on the hoop strength of the receiver to support he chamber), it is the best that we can do with the standard Marlin.

The above remedy adds 0.035" to the chamber wall. Another solution is to use a cartridge based on a case that is smaller in diameter than the 45-70 case. I have a Marlin getting barreled for a wildcat based on the 7.62x54R case and it will leave just about 0.01" extra in the chamber wall, making it about 10.5% thicker.

First I'm glad that you are safe.

I have to wonder if you had a double charge or if a SEE occurred.

I've never been enamored with the Marlin 45-70 and always felt the Winchesters were a stronger rifle, especially the 1886.

Makes me wonder if the 450 Marlin is more dangerous because the case is fatter then the 45-70 thus leaving even less metal thickness.

ffffg,
Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery.
Whatever the causes of this accident, my thanks to you for reporting it; all shooters and especially we that reload can benefit from a reminder of what can happen when things go wrong.

Sorry about your accident.I am glad to hear that you survived.If you want to shoot hot 45-70 loads I would recommend using a Ruger #1.

With the inherent design flaw makes one wonder why the various reloading manuals often quote loads of significant increase in power for just the Marlin?? They do the same for the '86 and more for the Ruger NO.1's. Most know the old Trapdoors are not to be fed "hot" loads, but again, if the powder companies know this problem it would seem very prudent for them to cease publishing increased power loads for the Marlin in caliber 45/70. Am I missing something here??

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
With the inherent design flaw ..... Am I missing something here??

It is not a design flaw. The Marlin 1895 is remarkably strong for a rifle designed to shoot.45-70 cartridges that comply with SAAMI pressure specifications. It was not designed for shooting .458 diameter bullets at magnum velocities. When guns get pushed beyond their limit they usually give at the weakest point.

It is not clear exactly what caused excessive pressure in ffffg's rifle. But he may have been on to something when he wrote, "possible foolish problems with what i thought was a minimum load was a .460 diameter bullet 509 grains nosed into the rifling, and 25 bullets fired with breach leading".

The incident serves as a reminder that we must be careful whenever loading/reloading ammunition.

The problem is that there are so many shooters who ask 'how hot can I load it ?'

As far as this incident 'breech leading' reminds me of the Glock problems .There harder lead bullets reduce dangerous leading .Of course careful cleaning minimizes buildup.

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
With the inherent design flaw makes one wonder why the various reloading manuals often quote loads of significant increase in power for just the Marlin?? They do the same for the '86 and more for the Ruger NO.1's. Most know the old Trapdoors are not to be fed "hot" loads, but again, if the powder companies know this problem it would seem very prudent for them to cease publishing increased power loads for the Marlin in caliber 45/70. Am I missing something here??

I have a many differnet US-loading books. And for the Marlin 1895 lever action rifle, I found different max. pressures. Lyman, Lee and Speer held with ~28.000cup/psi approx. the SAAMI max. pressure. Hornady load it up to 40.000cup, and Norma and Barnes quote loads up to 42.000/43.500psi.
Here in Germany, it´s not allowed by law to reload any round over the CIP max. pressure. For the .45-70 this is 2200bar/~30.000psi.
But one question I have. I read the starters post a few times. But my english isn´t the best. Sorry.
What was the reason for this accident, in a few words. I also reload the .45-70 with 5744 for reduced loads behind (soft) lead bullets between 300grs and 525grs. Yesterday I tested it. A double charge of 25grs 5744 will fill the brass to ~75%. Hmmmm....



Thanks,

An "insecured" Martin

The modern Marlins seem to do OK looking at the 338 ME.

Grenadier,
You are correct regarding my statement on design flaw. I had just returned home from near 500mile trip on motorcycle and brain still vibrating when I read the original post. The unforgiving hard 460 bullet pressed into rifling and excessive loads would seem to be the issue here, if that is what occured?? As mentioned earlier, IF one is going to use extra stout loads in the 45/70 the Ruger would be the one to use. I have a No.3 and Brng. '86 in 45/70 and venture they could be destroyed by using WOT loads as well. I don't plan on approaching that level of loads.

There ISN'T any "DESIGN FLAW" in the Marlin receiver...there is only a "DESIGN LIMITATION" and EVERY rifle, pistol, shotgun,pea shooter I know of has "DESIGN LIMITATIONS"...gimme me a break...Jezzzz.

THE DESIGN LIMITS WERE EXCEEDED IN THIS CASE BY A VERY WIDE MARGIN...AND NO ONE WILL KNOW THE EXACT CAUSE BECAUSE THERE WASN'T ONE, THERE WAS MANY.

Beside which, the Marlin receiver was designed a long time ago for specific cartridges from a predicessor receiver for the 30-30 and 35 Rem...Ya'll need to do some homework and get your facts straight.

The fact that it will handle many cartridges of higher pressures than the 45-70 attests to the INHERENT strength of that receiver, irregardlessof the "design limitation" that seems not to that much of a limitation at all, if the head is screwed on right.

As far as all this happy horse-sh** on wildcatting the receiver...SOME of that receiver/barrel fiddling is adjunct to a higher strength steel barrel...somewhere in the 130,00 PSI range or beyond, and some just use the same barrel at a lower pressure...WITHOUT PROBLEMS OF PRESSURE...those 45-50 Alaskan conversions each have a pressure limitation which if followed makes a perfectly safe riflePSI...which if you have ANY KIND of math skills and bother with using them, you can come up with the approximate pressures produced on the bolt and barrel in relation to the strengh of those pieces. Some people I've talked to have a major problem with this concept some understand it perfectly.

DON'T blame the gun or "THE DESIGN"...when there were other obvious and probably hidden problems in the reloading end...if the shooter had used factory ammo this would NEVER have happened.

Jezzz, I get tired of the mindless conjecture and even more mindless "expertize" coming out everytime something like this happens.

There are some extremely knowledgeable individuals on these forums that might come up with a plausible reason/answer, but NO ONE except a structural engineer with the tools to analyze this accident can come up with anything but an oddball guess. I really wish people would just leave out their baseless krap. All the "gass" just serves to confuse and cause mis and dis understanding.

There are many ways to increase the pressures and velocities in the 45-70 in the Marlin, SAFELY. The 444 M has a SAAMI pressure spec of 44KCUP and the WWW, BUFFALO BORE and GARRET ammo is only loaded to ~42KCUP. That ammo has been used all over the world in Marlins without ANY problems.

This "DESIGN FLAW" BULLSH** is just mindless twaddle from individuals that don't quite understand all they DON'T know about firearms design, that keeps being hot aired all over the various levergun forums.

NOT sorry about the rant, as I hope it will wake at least ONE other person up.

I DO hope fffg gets well and doesn't have any complications from this accident and continues in this sport. When something like this happens, it is a loss to everyone...in this sport, individually and family

Luck

well 25 grains of 5744 sounds like awfully light load with 500 gr in 45/70, hangfire or SEE sounds more like it. I guess none of you ever wondered why they publish starting loads? Starting load is safe SO EVEN LESS IS SAFER, RIGHT...............

Hope you heal up just fine!

If noone else will then here is some numbers:

25gr 5744 gives 68.8% filling and 27700psi
50gr 5744 gives an almost full case without boolit and i cant see compression like that happening. filling with boolit 137.6% and a pressure of NOW HOLD ON 254300psi.

But as little as 30gr will give 43600psi.

All the above is not taking into account the seating into the lands and slight oversize boolit. I also made the calcs with a max length of 2.55" as is standard.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
The 444 M has a SAAMI pressure spec of 44KCUP and the WWW, BUFFALO BORE and GARRET ammo is only loaded to ~42KCUP. That ammo has been used all over the world in Marlins without ANY problems.

The .444 Marlin case is much smaller in diameter than the .45-70 case. The chamber walls of a Marlin 1895 chambered in .444 Marlin are more than 15% thicker than the same rifle chambered in .45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
If noone else will then here is some numbers:

25gr 5744 gives 68.8% filling and 27700psi
50gr 5744 gives an almost full case without boolit and i cant see compression like that happening. filling with boolit 137.6% and a pressure of NOW HOLD ON 254300psi.

But as little as 30gr will give 43600psi.

All the above is not taking into account the seating into the lands and slight oversize boolit. I also made the calcs with a max length of 2.55" as is standard.

You made me rethink what I posted. That 500 grain RCBS bullet takes up a lot of case space because not only is it long, it has to be loaded to the leveraction over all length to be able to cycle from the magazine to the chamber. That makes that load not so slight!!!

Your right Grenadier...but it isn't THAT much smaller, and it gets into nitpicing without any useful result...

Rechambering to a 45 Alaskan reduces the walls by about the same amount...~8.7% by the same math, but the pressures are reduced to ~22%...45KCUP to 35KCUP. The 45-70 Marlin still has chamber walls thick enough to handle 45KCUP PLUS a WIDE safety margin.

If Henrik's calculations are ANYWHERE close, the high pressure is on the order of twice the pressure limits of normal 4130 barrel steel...no wonder it came apart...and as he stated and is correct, the numbers didn't take into consideration ALL the factors that went into this "accident".

I think this accident was cause by many of the "baddies" all stacked up, one on top of the other...but the clear indication here is SAFETY ALWAYS...know and understand all the hows and whys of reloading and take them all into consideration whenever reloading...THEN STOP...if something appears wrong.

The HIGHER than expected velocity reading on the first round would have stopped me and gas leaking around the primer is another indication something is amiss, and I wouldn't have proceeded until I worked through all the reasons.

I'm not about to publish the numbers I came up with for obvious reasons, but you can do the math ANY time, by doing a hoop stress analysis with online software in/on many physics links, as I said before, that you just have to punch in the numbers...I keep saying "NEVER believe ANYTHING ANYONE says on the net...do your own homework".

When I was building my "switch barrel" Marlin, I crawled all over the 3 barrels measuring everything that could be measured and the same with the receiver.

I also calculated the strengths of the different parts...INCLUDING calculating the area of the steel cutting the square threads remove on the barrel, AND by extension, on the receiver as compared to a 24 TPI thread...AND how to go about increasing the strength of the barrel by increasing the major and minor diameters of the barrel thread...basically no different than I do for a bolt gun or NEF swap barrel...as close as I could...AND several brands of case diameters diameters...~0.505" for the 45-70 and 0.464" for the 444.

No matter how I do the math it still comes out ~8%...either dividing the .505", base dia of a W-W case into .464", base dia of a R-P case (just above the rim) or subtracting the two then dividing the result by .505".

I have a very good idea of the strength of the components, and more importantly, WHERE the weak areas are.

I don't claim to be any kind of genius here, I don't NEED to be right...I've always been a problem SOLVER...not a problem CAUSER. My intentions are always directed to solving problems and I never cared WHO takes the credit...doing something useful that might save someones azz AND family down the line is credit enough...you keep the fanny pats.

Again, go check out the pressures that the various custom ammo makers load the 45-70 to and ask yourself would they do that in todays litigous atmosphere and risk a law suit and resulting media attention that would surely wipe them out? I doubt it.

I have NO problem with reloadin my 356 W, 444 M and 458 American to SAAMI specs...especially the 458 A because the belted case is stronger and has more meat in the base for a longer distance than the 45-70 case...that's why a 1.8" 458 WM case has less capacity than a 45-70 by 5 gr H20. REF 458 WSM thread.

Please don't get into that "hair splitting" krapol as it isn't germain to this problem and just serves to confuse those at a lower lever of understanding.

The only way this can help ANYONE is to send the receiver and any pieces and parts...having the case would have been ideal, possibly pointing out WHERE/WHAT happened with the pressure that led to the problem, the reloading data and maybe one or two of the other cases that lead up to the "big bang, to Marlin. They might find it useful...or not.

At least this way Marlin "might" be able to come up with a plausible reason for the accident.

I worked in many areas of Safety, on many jobs, for many companies and helped in the study of various "accidents" and the conclusions were, almost always, some form of operator error, misjudgement by a human, failure of a structural component(usually always caused by human involvement) and once in a while just "bad luck"...99% of all accidents are NOT accidental. Sometimes an answer was found that hopefully helped down the road.

Safety was way down the list in the bad old days of heavy construction, and way too many people were injured, maimed or killed...it is better today, but what goes on in the home can't be controlled.

Luck

Sorry!
My calcs are a product of qualified WAG and QL 2.9.

So nowhere near realty but close enough to detect foul play.

PS i got the length of the RCBS boolit as 1.37" of the net. Alter that and calcs go haywire either way!

FOOBAR - Kudos to you for all the studying you have done with these actions and my hat is off to you for your ability to make these into switch-barrel rifles.

If you read a couple of posts up you will see that I am in agreement with you - "It is not a design flaw. " I also wrote, "When guns get pushed beyond their limit they usually give at the weakest point." That is what happened to ffffg's rifle and that is what happened to the rifle in the picture I posted.

You stated, "The 45-70 Marlin still has chamber walls thick enough to handle 45KCUP PLUS a WIDE safety margin." I do not dispute this. Nevertheless, whatever safety margin the 45-70 Marlin has it is much less of a margin at 45KCUP than it is at 30KCUP. When the margin for error is smaller, then smaller errors can make a big difference. In ffffg's case, whatever error or errors occurred, they pushed things beyond whatever margin of safety he had - and that is indisputable.

No way do I know what a qualified WAG? is. QL does a good enough job for a math program and 5744 does have a steep pressure curve. Trying to come up with any kind of a close number even using very simple models is tough.

Looking at the picture and having a fair understanding of how metals deform plastically, some knowledge of explosives and how pressure waves propagate directionally, a fair knowledge of the Marlin receiver and barrel and having blown up a couple of M98's(and other things) plus a bit of phyisics and "slightly" higher math, makes me realize just how strong MOST rifle actions are and what they can handle.

All you have to do is investigate ONE gas pressure cylinder accident and know several people just disappeared into basically water vapor and only tiny pieces of human were found, the tops and bottoms of the cylinders remaining intact but imbedded in concrete walls or floors and turned into unguided missles and found hundreds of yards away, to understand just what pressure can do.

The actual level of pressure is moot, just looking at the results and knowing that a relatively small amount of burning powder getting loose did all that damage, should open a few eyes...whether it does or not remains to be seen.

No one tells "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" so help you Hanna AND there is always lots of "stuff" that never sees the light of day and is held back or not revealed for many reasons.

This accident happened because all the "stuff" stacked the wrong way and all together.

If one person learns "a lesson" from this it averages out, maybe.

I've been working on some reloads for my Marlin 336, 458 American for the past couple of days...guess what's going through my mind every time I reload a case and then pull the trigger. Probably a good thing I'm old, broke down, have the patience of a broke dick bull and just don't give a **** or I would sell it and buy a TV.

Luck

A WAG is first cousin to a SWAG

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
If noone else will then here is some numbers:

25gr 5744 gives 68.8% filling and 27700psi
50gr 5744 gives an almost full case without boolit and i cant see compression like that happening. filling with boolit 137.6% and a pressure of NOW HOLD ON 254300psi.

But as little as 30gr will give 43600psi.

All the above is not taking into account the seating into the lands and slight oversize boolit. I also made the calcs with a max length of 2.55" as is standard.

You made me rethink what I posted. That 500 grain RCBS bullet takes up a lot of case space because not only is it long, it has to be loaded to the leveraction over all length to be able to cycle from the magazine to the chamber. That makes that load not so slight!!!

NOW THAT DOES SOUND LIKE SMOKINJ(AKA MaxPayne,Starmetal, Joe, Old Joe ad nauseam) "which ever way the wind blows" Joe blows

Wild a$$ guess = wag

I see...said the blind man to the deaf mute...sorta like WFO in some circles...WIDE PHUH'KEN OPEN.....hahahahahahahah...I'm old, but I still can learn.

Leverguns has some comments on this problem also if anyone is inclined to interest.

Luck

Ive talked this over with some shooting friends and looking it over some things seem apparent.. 25 grains of 5744 is the starting load with 500 grain bullets in the OLD LYMAN 49th book.. it is around 14200 cup. for the springfield action. it is interesting that this load is not in the new 49 edition at sportmans today.?????????. . that is wierd to me, and makes me wonder why that was done if the the loads were safe, to change an edition? the 49th edition i have is no where near the same as the 49th edition on the shelf for 45 70 loads in the store now... they list very few 5744 loads and very few 500 grain bullet loads. i dont remember any for the sprinfield or marlin..

Now as to the probable problems that may have led to this accident.. The bullets were hard, , 500 grain with fast burning powder and tight crimp all together in one package... the last bullet i put in was tight as i put it in, the lever makes it easy to push it solidly into the rifling.. It could have been too big and hard of bullet pushed in too far into the rifling, with too fast of powder..

I put 25 grains of powder in two cases and 50 grains in one case and observed them with a flashlight and it was reasonalbly easy to see the 50 grains was an overload. As i mentioned i distinctly remember checking the powder level with a flashlight the night before... . dave

Hmmmm, thats true. In my 49th edition, this load is in. In the Lee reloading book is the same load, but with 25grs as max. and 22,5grs starting load.
The Accurate load edition 3.5 have many loads for the 5744, jacketed and leed bullets.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/...te_load_data_3.5.pdf


Martin

So these are cast, I'm wondering if a bullet didn't get sized properly?

I've had two issues similar.

One batch of 255gr .452 I had, I came across one that looked a little long, was not sure what the deal was. I just happened to be fitting a dummy round, and the thing pretty much fell into the case. I shrugged it off and then before I started pressing bullets in, i started thinking about what if it were the other way round? I then mic'ed all 500 and found yet another one that was .450, and three that were above .453-.454. As if the caster was playing with the sizer dies or something. Of course, you get what you pay for.

The reason I was cautious has to do with a box of soft lead 9mm, factory sealed box of 115gr from speer. I was using it to make up some plinker ammo, and came across a different bullet. It appeared fairly similar at first glance but it was considerably longer, as if a 38 148gr roundnose or something like it ended up in the same box (from the factory!). I didn't think much of it at the time but later split the barrel slightly on a load from the same box. I am slow, but at that point it all came together for me. I threw out several boxes of unfired ammo and started giving my components more scrutiny with the caliper.

As I said before...a lot of things went wrong here. Some that can be identified and some that can't.

Bullet length, per se, doesn't always mean much...it is the point where the bullet TOUCHES the lands that counts...I have several brands of hard cast bullets, in several calibers, ranging anywhere from 35 to 50 cal and from 300 to 550 gr weights...EVERY brand, weight, touching point is different and can vary a bit in each box or between casting runs depending on the lead mixture and hardness. I just weight/ogive sort, adjust where needed and keep on shooting.

The safest way to do things is to measure EACH bullet brand and weight as to the point it touches the lands AND the overall length...just like benchresters do(me too...EVERY BULLET, EVERY TIME)...AND SLUG your barrels if you are going to use cast lead bullets. I guarantee you can find a variation in bore size even in the same caliber rifle with a barrel made at a different time. Everyone assumes a 45 cal barrel measures 0.458" groove, 0.450" bore...but that ISN'T the case...a 0.002" to 0.006" variance(or even more) is well documented. For some reason people just load up and shoot without a thought I think sometimes.

Combine a hard cast 500 gr 0.460"+ OD bullet with a 0.454" undersized groove, jammed into the lands with a load(or overload) of fast burning powder and you can see the results.

AGAIN...all the wrong/bad things happened here all at once and the results should be a HUGE RED FLAG to all reloaders NOT to take things for granted...it doesn't matter what the reloading manuals say or what happened in the past million rounds fired with the same components...ANY CHANGE in components from what was originally used to develop the loads can cause problems...THIS INCIDENT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

I've experienced three such "pressure excursions" in my lifetime...one that happened 45 odd years ago with an XP-100 221 FB and one about 15 years later with a Rem 700, 25-06, and one just a couple of weeks ago with a 6-284, 1-8 T barrel that had a bore 0.0015" smaller than SAAMI specs. I blew two primers with loads that were below starting point in 3 different loading manuals. Part of the problem could also be the quick twist, but the barrel exibited high pressure from the start in all the loads I tried, chrono'ing velo's 200-300 fs plus faster than published loads and needing to drop the load 3-8 gr to equal the published loads...NOT GOOD AT ALL. I worked through the problems, talked to the powder people until I was certain it was the barrel and not the twist rate or my reloading procedures, components etc...I sent it back Sept 16 but haven't heard a word since.

I have spent the ensuing years trying to figure out "what the he** and why" to the earlier problems...all I have is conjecture reduced to a few possibilities...ALL OF WHICH boil down to a glitch in my reloading procedure...where or what component or combination actually caused the problem I can't say.
The thing that saved my large glutious maximus is the strength of the Rem receiver.

This last problem I worked until I found "a/the" possible cause, but I won't know for certain until I get the specs back from the maker...in any event that barrel will NOT BE USED FOR ANYTHING other than a prominent reminder that Murphy is ever watchfull and ready to muck about with those that don't keep their heads screwed on straight.

Sh** happens...we are human and mistakes happen. If the barrel is faulty and the maker makes it good, then I will credit where credit is due, otherwise I won't ever uses another one. I've had only a few "bad" barrels from a couple of makers over these 50 odd years, all WAY back when, and they were warrented quickly...and I've used several barrels from each maker since...What happens with this one remains to be seen.

I have always wondered about the cavalier attitude people have about reloading...maybe this example will open some eyes...but probably not very many.

All I can do is hope.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
As I said before...a lot of things went wrong here. Some that can be identified and some that can't.

Bullet length, per se, doesn't always mean much...it is the point where the bullet TOUCHES the lands that counts...I have several brands of hard cast bullets, in several calibers, ranging anywhere from 35 to 50 cal and from 300 to 550 gr weights...EVERY brand, weight, touching point is different and can vary a bit in each box or between casting runs depending on the lead mixture and hardness. I just weight/ogive sort, adjust where needed and keep on shooting.

The safest way to do things is to measure EACH bullet brand and weight as to the point it touches the lands AND the overall length...just like benchresters do(me too...EVERY BULLET, EVERY TIME)...AND SLUG your barrels if you are going to use cast lead bullets. I guarantee you can find a variation in bore size even in the same caliber rifle with a barrel made at a different time. Everyone assumes a 45 cal barrel measures 0.458" groove, 0.450" bore...but that ISN'T the case...a 0.002" to 0.006" variance(or even more) is well documented. For some reason people just load up and shoot without a thought I think sometimes.

Combine a hard cast 500 gr 0.460"+ OD bullet with a 0.454" undersized groove, jammed into the lands with a load(or overload) of fast burning powder and you can see the results.

AGAIN...all the wrong/bad things happened here all at once and the results should be a HUGE RED FLAG to all reloaders NOT to take things for granted...it doesn't matter what the reloading manuals say or what happened in the past million rounds fired with the same components...ANY CHANGE in components from what was originally used to develop the loads can cause problems...THIS INCIDENT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

I've experienced three such "pressure excursions" in my lifetime...one that happened 45 odd years ago with an XP-100 221 FB and one about 15 years later with a Rem 700, 25-06, and one just a couple of weeks ago with a 6-284, 1-8 T barrel that had a bore 0.0015" smaller than SAAMI specs. I blew two primers with loads that were below starting point in 3 different loading manuals. Part of the problem could also be the quick twist, but the barrel exibited high pressure from the start in all the loads I tried, chrono'ing velo's 200-300 fs plus faster than published loads and needing to drop the load 3-8 gr to equal the published loads...NOT GOOD AT ALL. I worked through the problems, talked to the powder people until I was certain it was the barrel and not the twist rate or my reloading procedures, components etc...I sent it back Sept 16 but haven't heard a word since.

I have spent the ensuing years trying to figure out "what the he** and why" to the earlier problems...all I have is conjecture reduced to a few possibilities...ALL OF WHICH boil down to a glitch in my reloading procedure...where or what component or combination actually caused the problem I can't say.
The thing that saved my large glutious maximus is the strength of the Rem receiver.

This last problem I worked until I found "a/the" possible cause, but I won't know for certain until I get the specs back from the maker...in any event that barrel will NOT BE USED FOR ANYTHING other than a prominent reminder that Murphy is ever watchfull and ready to muck about with those that don't keep their heads screwed on straight.

Sh** happens...we are human and mistakes happen. If the barrel is faulty and the maker makes it good, then I will credit where credit is due, otherwise I won't ever uses another one. I've had only a few "bad" barrels from a couple of makers over these 50 odd years, all WAY back when, and they were warrented quickly...and I've used several barrels from each maker since...What happens with this one remains to be seen.

I have always wondered about the cavalier attitude people have about reloading...maybe this example will open some eyes...but probably not very many.

All I can do is hope.

Luck

When did the 6mm/284 become SAAMI?

Sorry...no SAAMI for the 6mm-284 or 6.5-284...I should have included the statement that the SAAMI spec was for the 284 case, but many times having to "explain" EVERYTHING is counter productive, useless and many don't bother to fully read or understand the content anyway...both of these wildcats have been around for a long time...I had the 6mm version first time back in the early 60's and 2-3 rebarrels since then. I have also worked with 22 cal versions using the 284 case and used up several 22-243 barrels and have an Encore chambered for that cartridge today.

These wildcats, and many others are well know and well understood by many and the "normal" velocities and pressures produced by the different wildcats have long histories and extensive data.

Having a long history in wildcatting back in the day before computers, I know pretty well when things go titsup and are "WRONG"...not to put too sharp a point on it.

My point was the the pressure excursions and problems in relation to the links original observations and intent. If you missed that point I didn't do a good job or you're being whatever you're being....whether or not the 6mm-284 HAS a SAAMI spec is way beside the point...you could have answered that question with a quick net search, it you didn't already know and simply called my attention to it in a short sentence without the full quote. That would have sufficed.

It is difficult enough attempting to convey usefull information or pass on knowledge of some value without going into some detail and and without going totally overboard.

Then again, I'm beginning to think it might just be a total waste of time. There isn't any selectivity as to WHO gets the info, little or no feedback or how the information is used.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Sorry...no SAAMI for the 6mm-284 or 6.5-284...I should have included the statement that the SAAMI spec was for the 284 case, but many times having to "explain" EVERYTHING is counter productive, useless and many don't bother to fully read or understand the content anyway...both of these wildcats have been around for a long time...I had the 6mm version first time back in the early 60's and 2-3 rebarrels since then. I have also worked with 22 cal versions using the 284 case and used up several 22-243 barrels and have an Encore chambered for that cartridge today.

These wildcats, and many others are well know and well understood by many and the "normal" velocities and pressures produced by the different wildcats have long histories and extensive data.

Having a long history in wildcatting back in the day before computers, I know pretty well when things go titsup and are "WRONG"...not to put too sharp a point on it.

My point was the the pressure excursions and problems in relation to the links original observations and intent. If you missed that point I didn't do a good job or you're being whatever you're being....whether or not the 6mm-284 HAS a SAAMI spec is way beside the point...you could have answered that question with a quick net search, it you didn't already know and simply called my attention to it in a short sentence without the full quote. That would have sufficed.

It is difficult enough attempting to convey usefull information or pass on knowledge of some value without going into some detail and and without going totally overboard.

Then again, I'm beginning to think it might just be a total waste of time. There isn't any selectivity as to WHO gets the info, little or no feedback or how the information is used.

Luck

Read a thing about when Ackley was fooling with the 6.5 Jap. I was interested in the part where he ran a 30-06 reamer in it, left the bore as it was. It didn't blow the rifle up. Well we knew they were strong. Interesting thing is he said that the initial higher pressure was swaging that 06 bullet down to 6.5. Then he said something about after it was swaged that the pressure of it going through the rest of the bore wasn't much different then firing the proper 6.5 ammo.

Probably the initial pressure you had with your 6mm/284 was the initial swaging the that .243 bullet down to that .241 groove and Lord knows how tight the bore was. Some of the European rifles that are chambered for popular American calibers have really undersized bore and grooves. My CZ 22 Hornet is like that. I thought all modern 22 Hornets were now designed for the .224 bullets. Not mine!! But man does she shoot really good.

Too many things with that Marlin blow up and you nailed them. In that caliber that rifle isn't strong especially when you exceed the normal pressure. Maybe Marlin should have made a slightly larger receiver for that caliber, but hey they wanted to shoehorn it in their 30-30 size receiver. We never saw Winchester do that. They only went as larger as the 375 and even there they made some receiver modifications. They did have a larger rifle for the 45-70 and we know it as the 1886.

quote:

"We never saw Winchester do that. They only went as larger as the 375 and even there they made some receiver modifications." by SmokinJ

Not true, Winchester used the BBore reciever for 444 Marlin which is larger.

1. Not a single photo.
2. Description of a over pressure failure with a powder that is not easy to over pressure to the extent described.

Without more information a powder mix up seems to be one possibility.

fffg

I am glad you did not get hurt worse.
I used to own a Marlin 45/70, my brother, and brother in law both own them as well.

We all shot the 45/70+P loads listed in loading manuals suitable for the Marlins.

Also, I was involved in the training of people for dangerous animal excapes, and many of them had Marlin 45/70's, they all used Cor Bon factory ammo, and we shot a lot of it.

Something WAY out of the "ordinary" must have happened, to cause then to "blow up" in the manner you described, and in the posted picture...

So what I am seeing is;

if you want more out of a 45-70, get a 450m with standard loads...

Ok, thai is what I did.


Snake

Historically light loads have blow up as many guns as overloads have..

I don't know what happened with your Marlin but I do know by the damage that you had a hell of a lot of pressure, and I mean a hell of a lot..I have seen double charges do less damage than that..Sure you didn't get the Bullseye instead of the 4457??

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Historically light loads have blow up as many guns as overloads have..

I don't know what happened with your Marlin but I do know by the damage that you had a hell of a lot of pressure, and I mean a hell of a lot..I have seen double charges do less damage than that..Sure you didn't get the Bullseye instead of the 4457??

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