I have a few delusions that I want to confirm. Can someone tell me what the inside mag dimensions are? I want to know the max extremes that can function. Thanks!

It's .7025" OD & .6525" ID.

I don't know what your project is, but maybe this would help you:

https://www.marlinowners.com/f...tube-dimensions.html

Boom stick,
Are you thinking of the inside length and width of the Winchester Model 1895 magazine?

Tell us what you want to put into it and then I will see if it will fit. I can tell he means the Win 95, not the Marlin.
I convert all of them to .405 WCF. Even the Miroku 270s. Easy.

Sorry, Winchester 1895. What is the internal dimensions? Front and rear please. Thanks! Wanting to know where the extremes are.

OK,
I will check the design diagrams in my Winnie M1895 book.

dpcd may beat me to this and then you will have two answers.

I can just measure one but I want to know what you want to stuff into one; I can have a better answer.

.480x3.125
As you know the feed lips vary.

Thank you. What about the 405 win and the rim diameter?

OK Boom stick,
After a bit of research and tinkering here are some numbers for my Miroku/Winchester 1895 .405:
The COL is 3.175 inches and all my standard 300 grain ammo is loaded to that COL.
My 400 grain Woodleigh DG ammo crimped at the cannelure is loaded to 3.21 and this works fine for the top two in the magazine. Try to load in a third one and it will jam in the magazine.


The base of the .405 brass is .59 inch.
The neck of a loaded cartridge is .54
There is very little clearance between the inner lips of the magazine and the loaded brass.(my feeler gauges are out in my shop). So my guess is that the inner surface of the mag box is a few thousandths greater than the diameter of the brass. The Winchester design docs call the magazine box a magazine cover.

The above is a combination of measurements of my rifle and design drawings from from the book
"Winchester Model 1895
Last of the Classic Lever Actions"
Authors Kassab and Dunbar.

Best of luck with your project.

quote:

What about the 405 win and the rim diameter?

The Lyman loading manual data is :
The .405 WCF rim measures:
Diameter .543
Thickness .073

Any more ? on the .405?

dpcd and I really like that caliber.
It is also good in a DR.

Thanks guys! Ok, now we are getting somewhere. So we have a trapezoidal box? Can it feed any cartridge that falls within those parameters? Can it only feed something no wider than the base of the 405 and not the rim diameter? If it can feed something within the trapezoid than can it feed a 404 Jeffery case that is about .543” that tapers a good amount necked to 411 for a more potent package?

quote:

The base of the .405 brass is .59 inch.
The neck of a loaded cartridge is .54

ERROR!
Error correction - tired eyes error:
The base .2 inches above the rim is actually .460
The neck of loaded cartridge is actually .4360

I confirmed this with Lyman load manual.
Sorry for the error.

Ok, Boom; I wish you had outlined your needs first so as to avoid guessing on what you need/want. So I can measure everything you want at one time. I will measure actual iron.
Do you want to shoot 405s?
The box is not a trapezoid. It has feed lips inside it at the rear. If you wanted me to check a 404, say so. But I gave you the ID of the box from an original 95, and it is much smaller, at .480.
A 404 definitely won't go into it. Anything less than .480, will.
Not sure what you want.

One last observation:
The 404 Jeff COL = 3.530
The .405 WCF COL = 3.175

The 404 COL is .355 longer than the 1905 .405.

The 404 case length is 2.875
the .405 WCF case length is 2.583
The 404 case is .292 inch longer than the .405


I will leave it to DPCD to speculate on whether it is practical to stretch the magazine and the chamber to accommodate the 404 cartridge necked down for a 400 grain .411 bullet.

PS If your goal is just to use a Winchester 1895 .405 to shoot 300 grain .411 bullets at 2400 fps and 400 grain .411 bullets at 2150 fps, then I am confident that the goal is easily attainable, but it should be a separate topic.

It's not the length, it's the ID of .480; you can't make the magazine wider due to the lever that surrounds it. So any round must be less than .480 to fit into the mag. Width; length is what cr said. But lengths can be changed; diameters, can't. 404 is a no go at any length.
But yes,, CR is right; you can make a 405 equal a 404 without the drama of the weird bullet size. Which is really metric.

Ok, thank you all and sorry for the Confucius as my anti Chinese friend would say. I was looking at the max case head diameter that would fit. So I guess unless you can alter the gun easily, the largest case to fit would be the 9,3x62 case or 9,3x66 case (Slightly larger than the 06 case). Is there any hope of getting a 10.75x68 case to feed that is .495” with some metal removal in non crucial areas? Can the internal magazine be milled out a tad, and if so, how much? Being the son of a machinist, I get delusions of grandeur with my gun ideas.
Thanks for your patients as my Doctor would say.

The mag box could be made from thinner steel and the 10.75 would work. Challenging to mill the box sides as they are very thin as is but could be done. But taking ten thou of each side is doable. File it.
Now, is when we are getting somewhere.

If the only way to make it work is to thin out the magazine that will be a lot of work and or costly. The best and most rational option is the 400 Whelen. What would be the obstacles from that working?

Per Wiki
"The .400 Whelen cartridge was developed by Colonel Townsend Whelen while he was commanding officer of Frankford Arsenal in the early 1920s.[2] The cartridge resembles a .30-06 Springfield case necked up to .40 caliber to accept bullets manufactured for the .405 Winchester.
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
300 gr (19 g) SP 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) 3,522 ft⋅lbf (4,775 J)
350 gr (23 g) 2,100 ft/s (640 m/s) 3,430 ft⋅lbf (4,650 J) "

So, after converting a Winchester 1895 .405 to 400 Whelen, you would attain velocities already exceeded by the .405 WCF?

Is the objective is merely to achieve .405 WCF performance and avoid flanged cartridges?

Sounds like a fun project, and if anyone can do it, I reckon dpcd can.

PS If you hand load and just want higher powered .405 WCF loads, let me know when your 1895 .405 is ready and I can suggest some.
PPS with 300 grain NF FPS bullets at 2250 fps, you really do not need any more speed; they will punch right through. But you can load them on up to 2400 if desired.

No reason to pick a 400 Whelen over a 405 unless you are starting with a 30-06 rifle; bolt head and extractor, you know.
Or just want one, which is reason enough.

Great info. The idea of a 400 Whelen over 405 case is capacity and pressure differences. I am not sure what the max OAL you can do from a 30-06 conversation.

DPCD - when the 1895 is chambered in 270 and 30/06 presumably a longer mag box used cf to the one used in the 405 ?

Is it possible to alter the 405 mag box to enable loading to an OAL of 3.4” ?

Nope; the mag box is fine as is. I alter the feed lips a bit.
3.4 inch? Not enough room.

Boomer;
This case capacity information was copied from a table of case capacities and shows the .405 WCF has 3 grains MORE capacity that the 400 Whelen:
400 Whelen 75
.405 Win 78

Using powders such as VV N133 can lower peak chamber pressures by 10-12 thousand PSI. I use N133 and have confirmed this with my Pressure Trace II system. My 400 grain .405 pressures dropped from 48,000 psi to mid 30s at the same 2076 fps velocity by switching from TAC to N133. The lower pressures are also better for my .405 double rifle and IMHO, just better all around when possible.

So, as dpcd said,"Or just want one, which is reason enough." And I agree, I just wanted to keep the facts straight. Modern use of the .405 WCF is not well understood and it is best to not muddy the waters.

From what I gather and if I am wrong, please let me know, the 405 brass is longer and not as strong in the webbing thus giving more case capacity but losing strength and with the OAL limits of the 1895, the Whelen has more useable case capacity. If one was to have the max oal of the 06 based 1895 that in theory should give better performance over the 405 Win. More useable case capacity + stronger brass + higher pressures = more energy potential or lower pressure at the same velocity. I was looking at a goal to see if 400 @ 2150 was obtainable in an 1895 with 411 bullets.

Boom stick,
WRT Hornady .405 brass case strength- I have not heard of any case strength issues with Hornady .405 brass. Since many reloaders of the .405 use either new or once fired Hornady brass, any serious problems should have been reported by now.

I just reviewed my .405 WCF notebook and found two reports of 300 grain bullets loaded to 2400 fps with excellent accuracy reported.The bullets used were Barnes and Northfork, both of which shoot quite well in my 1895 .405 and my Simson Suhl .405 DR.

There were also multiple tables of different 400 grain bullets exceeding 2000 fps. As you know, my 400 grain Woodleigh loads with Both TAC and N133 approach 2100 fps which is the same velocity band of the 450/400 NE.

Further, IMHO either powders could be loaded to safely reach 2150 fps. My reason for stopping at 2076 fps was because one of my team members said
"STOP! That is the regulation velocity of my 450/400 NE and that has killed ele, Cape buff, hippo, etc."
So, I stopped and took the 1895 .405 and that load to RSA and killed my Cape buffalo with it; this was my goal, not a specific velocity.

Bottom line is that IMHO, either the .405 WCF or the 400 Whelen can be made to meet your velocity objectives and either should be an adequate DG rifle.
dpcd should be able to handle any related gunsmith tasks for you.

Best of luck with the project.

Boom stick:

Here is the link to my .405 buff hunt story on this forum:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...701040671#2701040671

A great read. Thanks for sharing. What was your OAL with the new throat in the chamber?

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Boom stick:

Here is the link to my .405 buff hunt story on this forum:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...701040671#2701040671

Boom stick,
The standard 1895.405 COL is 3.175 inch per Lyman.

PER MY LOADING RECORDS, My 400 grain loads were crimped at the Woodleigh cannelure and measured 3.42 or 0.245 longer than standard.
In in my rifle, I could load two of these cartridges into an empty magazine, but trying to load a third would not work and would jam.

Also from load records, I was reminded that Judge G was able to load three 400 grain Woodleigh loads with no problems.

For my buff hunt, I first loaded two 300 grain NF FPS at 2250 fps, then two 400 grain Woodie solids at 2076 fps, and finally one Weldcore 400 in the chamber.
That worked great and was the only hunt where I used the 400 grain loads, but If I planned to use them often, I would talk to dpcd about making the necessary magazine changes to allow a full magazine of the 400 grain Woodies with the COL of 3.42.

I have not heard of Hornady 405 brass being weak; I know guys who have Rugers in it and they load it very hot. I do not know the exact loads. I just load mine per the book. I have one 405 now; an original 95 with a custom barrel. Longer and a bit heavier than standard.
BTW, on another note, all the Winchester/Miroku 405s have totally the wrong barrel contour for a 405. They were always straight tapered like the 30-06; never reverse tapered like the 30-40.

What I mean is that a lot of the rimmed brass has square ish corners at the inside case head and more modern ones have more rounded inside corners and thicker webbing designed for higher pressure.

1895 served in wars up until WW2

I am not sure how many 400 Whelen cartridges would fit. Seems the magazines might be cartridge specific in terms of taper of the magazine. Would a blown out 400 Whelen lose one down? would a custom magazine need to be made?

It would be a interesting find if those Russian 95s were found in a ware house some place.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I am not sure how many 400 Whelen cartridges would fit. Seems the magazines might be cartridge specific in terms of taper of the magazine. Would a blown out 400 Whelen lose one down? would a custom magazine need to be made?

1895 magazines arent caliber specific but their feed lips are cartridge family specific. The bigger magazine in your iscture is the older first style. At around serial number 5000 the gun was tweaked and the magazine changed. Notice the flat side reciever and deep.magazine vs the newer scalloped reciever and newer magazine.
Someday I hope to have a .405 and if money allowed I'd like an older style.magazine made for it because I THINK it will allow a full magazine of the above 400 grain loads.
I've never seen an 1895 that would take 5 rounds of ammo in the magazine. The three I have only allow 4 in the magazine with enough room to drop down for the bolt to close (.30-06 and two .30-40's but all mine are newer Miroku made guns).

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
It would be a interesting find if those Russian 95s were found in a ware house some place.

Winchester could pick up some customers if they would make a special run of them. I'm sure they would sale like hot cakes!!

Boom stick,
So go buy an 1895 .405 and see how many 400 Whelen you can squeeze into it. dpcd might loan you a ball peen hammer to make them fit.

BTW, another new shooter of 1895 .405s has been communicating with me and he can get 3 loaded rounds of .405 Woodleigh 400 grain bullets into his magazine. His bullet is seated just a hair further than mine. He also reports a MV of 2080 fps for his first loading venture. He too is targeting 2150 fps and it will be interesting to watch. He has wisely purchased the Pressure Trace II system so he can track chamber pressure as he increases velocity. When he succeeds, I will let you know.

quote:

1895 magazines arent caliber specific but their feed lips are cartridge family specific. The bigger magazine in your iscture is the older first style. At around serial number 5000 the gun was tweaked and the magazine changed. Notice the flat side reciever and deep.magazine vs the newer scalloped reciever and newer magazine.

Not exactly.
The magazines were caliber, or cartridge family specific.
The 38-72 and 40-72 share a similar magazine which is tall in the front as they are more or less cylindrical cartridges.
The 30-40 and 303 Brit. had a more tapered magazine as they are tapered cartridges. Same with the 7.62x54R, 30'03 and 30'06 mags.
I've seen (and have one) 405 with a pretty standard looking mag but some look to have one a bit in between the deep front and standard.
I cannot say why Winchester didn't give the 405 the deep front magazine.
Really has nothing to do with being a flatside or later action. Take a look at a flatside 30-40 and you will see the mag is different than the 38-72 or 40-72.

Here are my '95s
38-72 Flatside, 38-72, 405, and 30-40.

Huvius. Thanks for the informative post. I need to come up with an old boxy mag or have one made. The 1895 is such a great action. I just wish to make a wider mag with less taper or modify one or surrender to what already exists. crshelton, I will need to acquire some 400 whelen dummy rounds and see who will see how well the work if at all in the existing 1895s