I bought a 45-70 Marlin guide gun a couple of years ago. I love the handiness and accuracy of this rifle (1"@50 yds.). For use on bears, elk and moose, I would love to see Nosler make a 400 gr. partition flat point for 45 caliber lever action rifles!. Loaded at 1900-2000 fps out of modern 45-70 and 450 marlin rifles, this would be a formidable combination!.

Do you know about Nosler's web forums? If you didn't, you might want to give the site a visit and pass along your suggestion. The site is moderated by several employees of Nosler and they do participate in the discussions.

NoslerReloading.com forums
http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpbb2/

Just a thought....
-Bob F.

Use the woodleigh 405 gr 45/70 bullet IMHO it's the best 45/70 bullet going around, hangs together great and expands at the 45/70 speeds..........................no need for nos partitions with woodleigh's

I would love Nosler to make a .416 cal 400 gr Accubond !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is it about the 300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point you think is lacking in regard to bear, elk and moose. In tests it was driven 2150 fps and out penetrated a 375 H&H shooting 300 grain bullets. It can be driven 2367 fps in a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel, about 2300 fps in the Marlin 1895G.

Ballard
If you would like a premium 400 gr bullet for your 45/70 [which is a great idea by the way] take a look at the North Fork.

Jackfish is right..Also the 300 grain Nosler Protected Point out penetrated the 350 Speer and Hornady along with the 400 Speer and the 400 Swift A-Frame by over 8 inches.What more would a guy want.Heavier is not always better.

I did ask on the Nosler forum about a 350/400 and point noted.

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
Jackfish is right..Also the 300 grain Nosler Protected Point out penetrated the 350 Speer and Hornady along with the 400 Speer and the 400 Swift A-Frame by over 8 inches.What more would a guy want.Heavier is not always better.

I did ask on the Nosler forum about a 350/400 and point noted.

Jayco

Why do people get hung up on penetration? Who told 45-70 shooters that penetration was of utmost importance?

Any chunk of lead in the 400'ish grain range moving at 45-70 velocities will kill anything you will ever use a 45-70 for.

Not hung up on penetration but it's a matter of penetrating into the vital organs which must happen. Elmer Keith said the most common shots on elk he had seen were quartering away shots which requires more penetration .And of course elk or moose requires more penetration than deer.I also prefer an exit hole to let air in and blood out !

I have used the following with good success in my guide gun:
Nosler 300 gr partition
54 grains H4198
Fed 210 primer
M.V. 2150 FPS

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
What is it about the 300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point you think is lacking in regard to bear, elk and moose. In tests it was driven 2150 fps and out penetrated a 375 H&H shooting 300 grain bullets. It can be driven 2367 fps in a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel, about 2300 fps in the Marlin 1895G.

Penetration! What a bunch of over-hyped hooyey!

Penetration is the hype that hardcast bullet manufacturers use to get you to buy their product. Somehow they convince you that you need 30+ inches or you're not adequate. I'm sure Freud had something to say about this.

For North American hunters, who strive to take humane shots, 12" of penetration will kill any deer, from any angle. 12" of penetration will kill any Elk with broadside or quartering. 12" is what you get from a 270Winchester and a cheap bullet.

I'm not sure you can buy any 45-70 ammo that will penetrate less than 18" - cowboy loads included.

So if you are feeling inadequate and you want the security of an expensive bullet packed in a box with pretty pictures on the side - buy Nosler. Keep those Oregon boys employed.

quote:

I'm not sure you can buy any 45-70 ammo that will penetrate less than 18" - cowboy loads included.

Back at it DLA?Your just wrong.As you can see by these test,you are hard pressed to get 18 inches of penetration "Without" a Premium type bullet.


Jayco

I drive the cheap Remington 405 bulk SP to 1700 fps. Solves any problem I come across. Just as effective as the "premium" bullets and cheap enough to practice and plink with.

ZM

quote:

Originally posted by Zeke:
I drive the cheap Remington 405 bulk SP to 1700 fps. Solves any problem I come across. Just as effective as the "premium" bullets and cheap enough to practice and plink with.

ZM

The Remingtom 405 was Garrett Cartridges first loadings in 1989 at a meager 1700 fps and he dropped it from his ammo line do to customer complaints of break-up and lack of penetration on Elk sized game.

Jayco

i have no use for store bought premium bullets myself .
cause i use the best bullet a person can get for the 45-70.
I shoot only homecast in my 1886 .
I can make a boolit as "soft" as a remington or speer , Partitioned like the nosler ,or nearly as hard as a copper solid all out of the same mold .
I can go as heavy as 645 grs or as lite as 150 grns . i have at lest 10 times the options as are advalable with jacketed .plus i dont worry about core jacket seperations.

quote:

The Remingtom 405 was Garrett Cartridges first loadings in 1989 at a meager 1700 fps and he dropped it from his ammo line do to customer complaints of break-up and lack of penetration on Elk sized game.

Jayco

Total crap. Have you ever even shot a 405gr Remington in your life?

The only way you can get a 405gr Rem to break up at 1700fps is too shoot it into a rock. You won't break it on a Elk.

And just to enlighten you, IF you did break it, do you realize that the fragments would be bigger than what most folks shoot out of their 30cal rifles?


T

quote:

Back at it DLA?Your just wrong.As you can see by these test,you are hard pressed to get 18 inches of penetration "Without" a Premium type bullet.
Jayco

Was any of that store bought loaded ammunition? Focus.

And you wonder why you were banned from Marlin Owners forum?

Good day.

Jayco

Wow, this stuff does get heated. The reason I like the 300 grain Nosler is not only penetration, it is controlled expansion. It works. Two critters come quickly to mind. A Muskox and a Bison.

I have contacted nosler and winchester repeatedly for a 350 or 400 gr partition for the 45-70. Maybe if enough of us e mail them they will do it.

I may be wrong but wouldn't the 400 grain swift a-frame do what your looking for .

North Fork makes the best 350 .45 cal bullet
i have seen. I would use in my Lott and it will open at 12-1300fps. dose not break up at 2600fps. I am going to load it in The 45-70 and the Lott for plains game.
http://www.northforkbullets.com/458-350fp.htm

Jus wondering where this load data came from?? My Lyman manual show a max load of Reloader 7 for 300 grain bullets at 51.5 GRAINS. That chart shows it at 63 grains. How is this possible? Is there something I am not seeing? It also shows a max charge of H4198 with the 250 gr. barnes at 49 gr. This chart shows it at 58.5. I would REALLY like to know where this data came from.

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:

quote:

I'm not sure you can buy any 45-70 ammo that will penetrate less than 18" - cowboy loads included.

Back at it DLA?Your just wrong.As you can see by these test,you are hard pressed to get 18 inches of penetration "Without" a Premium type bullet.


Jayco

Be very carefull. Ol Jayco tends to post data for the 450 Marlin and substitute it in conversations on the 45-70.

I personally would never use 450 data for 45-70.

I am talking about .450 data. The numbers in the chart are WAY high for the Lyman .450 data.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Be very carefull. Ol Jayco tends to post data for the 450 Marlin and substitute it in conversations on the 45-70.

I personally would never use 450 data for 45-70.

Dla needs to get out more often.Different powders give different velocities and pressures..Take this 350 grain Speer out of a .450 Marlin at 2247 fps at only 39,000 PSI.


And Accurate Arms powder..Go figure on this forum the lowly levergun can do so well.

Jayco

I think that Nosler should make the .458" FN Partition in also 350 and 400 grain. That way all the bases are covered from 300 grain on up.

Jayco, Why don't you post the chart from the same Rick Jamison article that shows the velocities and pressures?

quote:

It also shows a max charge of H4198 with the 250 gr. barnes at 49 gr. This chart shows it at 58.5. I would REALLY like to know where this data came from.

Marlin 1895 450 Marlin 24" barrel
250 grain Barnes XFN seated to 2.51"
Hornady brass, 2.09" trim
Winchester Large Rifle primer
51 grains H4198 START 2253 fps 33,600 PSI
57 grains compressed H4198 MAXIMUM 2509 fps 42,200 PSI
Hodgdon 2005 Annual Manual

Exactly. What the hell is up with Lyman???? 49 graings max??? Hodgdon shows 57 grains COMPRESSED. How did they squeeze 58.5. BS.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:


Jayco, Why don't you post the chart from the same Rick Jamison article that shows the velocities and pressures?

quote:

It also shows a max charge of H4198 with the 250 gr. barnes at 49 gr. This chart shows it at 58.5. I would REALLY like to know where this data came from.

Marlin 1895 450 Marlin 24" barrel
250 grain Barnes XFN seated to 2.51"
Hornady brass, 2.09" trim
Winchester Large Rifle primer
51 grains H4198 START 2253 fps 33,600 PSI
57 grains compressed H4198 MAXIMUM 2509 fps 42,200 PSI
Hodgdon 2005 Annual Manual

Jayco

ONly an opinion but premium bullets are a waste at velocities equal to those generated by a .45-70. Montana Precision Swaging offers 1:20 alloy bullets suitable for paper patch that will exceed 1600 fps from an 1895 CB Gun easily...510 grains and you'll get all the penetration you want or need. Start in the LOW 30 grain range with RX7. I'd guess nekkid lead would do as well or better but have no experience with that. IF you recover one of the paper patch loads from an animal it will retain most of its original weight...95%+.

A similar downsized version for a .44 Mag recently punched thru shoulder and stopped forward of the ham on a hog I shot, about 22" of real world penetration. I doubt the .45-70 load would perform any less. In fact I'd bet it would do a lot better.

Here's some pics of recovered bullets, .44 at the top, .45-70 down toward the bottom.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2121043/m/433105283

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DigitalDan:
ONly an opinion but premium bullets are a waste at velocities equal to those generated by a .45-70. Montana Precision Swaging offers 1:20 alloy bullets suitable for paper patch that will exceed 1600 fps from an 1895 CB Gun easily...510 grains and you'll get all the penetration you want or need. Start in the LOW 30 grain range with RX7. I'd guess nekkid lead would do as well or better but have no experience with that. IF you recover one of the paper patch loads from an animal it will retain most of its original weight...95%+.

A similar downsized version for a .44 Mag recently punched thru shoulder and stopped forward of the ham on a hog I shot, about 22" of real world penetration. I doubt the .45-70 load would perform any less. In fact I'd bet it would do a lot better.

dan see my post above . of course no one pays any atention to me .

I did see it, and obviously agree. Never hurts to throw another log on the fire of Truth.

quote:

a_dalimata
dan see my post above . of course no one pays any atention to me .

You're OK. You're just running into a common forum phenomena - talking without knowing.

Posters fall into categories:

• Those who hunt with the 45-70
  
• Those who actually shoot the 45-70 a lot, but don't hunt with it.
  
• Those who actually shoot the 45-70 but hunt with other calibers
  
• Those who shoot other calibers but would like to shoot the 45-70
  
• Those who don't shoot anything but would like to comment
  

Then there are others who just shoot off their mouths.

Awhile back i had CPC load up some Rem 405's to a muzzle velocity of 1800fps in case i got a chance go moose or black bear hunting....i thought that at real world hunting ranges that the rem 405 would give great penetration and some expansion...was i mistaken?.....bearit....

Probably not.

DLA,

I shoot the 45-70 a lot and hunt with it a little. Am I allowed to participate in the discussion?

I like the idea of the Partition out of the 45-70. I had just purchased and loaded my first box prior to Katrina and she took them away. I have started buying all my stuff again and will buy some more Partitions. My hope is to develop a load with the Partitions that shoots to the same point of aim as a cheaper 300 gr bullet. Plink and practice with the cheaper stuff and hunt with the Partitions. Partitions are not warranted for deer, but I'd like to develop a really good big game load on the off chance I get to hunt elk or moose one day. Never hurts to have a bullet better than needed does it. I'm not gonna go broke buying one or two boxes of 45-70 300 gr Partitions in a lifetime. There was a 500 pound hog killed recently in an area where I have been hunting. The Partition would make me feel more comfortable for a sub optimal shot angle on a big pig in the thick stuff.

I don't shoot a 45-70 at all. Mostly because it's the most contentious, argument-starting, flame thrower priming round ever invented by man.

I have enough to worry about wondering if the 270 really is better for deer than the 30-06 or if the 308 Norma's longer neck gives superior accuracy compared to the 300 Win Mag with cast boolits. Lord help me from getting into the ying and yang of the 45-70.

quote:

Am I allowed to participate in the discussion?

Yes, you have our permission. Welcome to the looney bin Paul.

Sorry about your adventure with Katrina...the Ms. Coast took a shellacing from that one. FWIW, it probably doesn't matter much what one uses in the .45-70 for bullets, especially here in North America. Not much wrong with your approach to using your gun either. My only point about the cartridge is that Partitions are not necessary for the cartridge. They will certainly work, no question about it.