The 45-70 cartridge loaded with a soft lead bullet and blackpowder is routinely used to take buffalo free chase in the western states. It was the cartridge significantly responsible for the end of the free roaming buffalo. Now that is a FORMIDABLE combination.

Actually, buffalo lost most of their population due to going through a "bottleneck" it's a common feature in their history, evidenced through periodic losses of genetic diversity -- was a main topic in my mammalian genetics lecture series (I was a student, not a lecturer) at Texas A&M -- back to guns -- I'm very impressed w. how my garrett solids perform ballistically, will find out how they work on game in a week or so -- Corbon softpoints fly apart -- we shot some at firewood one day, and found fragments and jackets completely separated from the lead -- Remington factory rounds -- for all their brass problems -- didn't seem to do the same thing.

quote:

Actually, buffalo lost most of their population due to going through a "bottleneck" it's a common feature in their history, evidenced through periodic losses of genetic diversity -

What fortuitous timing on their part. Too damn dumb to Ruuuuuuuuuun!

quote:

Originally posted by PaulBarnard:
DLA,

I shoot the 45-70 a lot and hunt with it a little. Am I allowed to participate in the discussion?

Please, my post was the truth about folks who post. It was not meant to squealch participation. It was meant to boost a poster who gave everyone the facts.

quote:

I like the idea of the Partition out of the 45-70. .

This is America where we have a right to like our ideas. There's nothing wrong with what you want to do.

And this is a forum where we should exercise our minds discussing our ideas and leverage the experience of others.

quote:

Originally posted by bearit:
Awhile back i had CPC load up some Rem 405's to a muzzle velocity of 1800fps in case i got a chance go moose or black bear hunting....i thought that at real world hunting ranges that the rem 405 would give great penetration and some expansion...was i mistaken?.....bearit....

You'll be amazed at what that big chunk of lead will do at that velocity. I doubt you'll recover one from a black bear, maybe from a moose depending on the angle.

The 45-70 405gr @1800fps has the same momentum as 270gr @2700fps from a .375H&H.

thanks for the reply dla....i've not even touched one of those things off yet,only some lesser deer loadings but my intention is to use them on bear if i'm lucky enough this fall....bearit....

I'll second that call for additional .458" bullet weights in the Nosler Partition... A 350gr FP and 400gr FP for the lever guns would be awesome - with jacket reinforced as the weight goes up...

You can get a premium 350 or 400 grain bullet from Alaska Bullet works. They are called Kodiak bullets and they work very well. Jim

I've used 400 grain hard cast bullets on hogs and they worked just fine without expanding. A .45 makes a big enough hole.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
in my mammalian genetics lecture series (I was a student, not a lecturer) at Texas A&M -- --

I had Dr. Wommack for that class back in '90. Is he still teaching? Class was held across University in the Vet School. Good to hear from another Ag. WHOOP!

Yup, or at least he was when I had it circa 2001 -- he didn't do too many of the lectures though, mostly guests.

never shot a bison or musk-ox with my 45-70 guide gun. However, I've settled on 400 gr speer flat points over 53 grains of IMR 3031. Of the thirty-odd hogs and half a dozen deer I/ve shot with this combo at ranges from 30 to 120 yds, its typically bang/flop for deer and either bang/flop or bang/spin for hogs. When the shootin' stopped and I asked these critters, not one had a negative word to say. And even better, you can eat right up to the bullet hole.
GWB

It's time to put up or shut up.
Here are Swift A Frames.

http://user857371.wx7.registeredsite.com/miva/merchant.mv?

quote:

It's time to put up or shut up.
Here are Swift A Frames.

I have to agree with suggestion as to the Swifts. Although I have never used them in a 45-70, the 450 grain bullets have worked great in a 458 Winchester loaded to about 2,180 fps.

Once again folks get into the woodleigh 405 gr flat points for the 45/70 they are awsome and seem to be ignored by 45/70 users.

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Once again folks get into the woodleigh 405 gr flat points for the 45/70 they are awsome and seem to be ignored by 45/70 users.

I believe they are ignored because most 45-70 shooters realize they don't need $2 bullets.

Hello DLA..Still flappen your jaws on .13 cent bullets for anything that walks with a 45-70?Here is your 405 Remington from a 300Lb animal.Dang sure otta work on something bigger..huhhh!!!

Then there are real bullets like the 350 North Fork that do not faulter on anything including gravel/dirt and rocks!


The same bullet at a different angle fired at 2100 fps+ into rough stuff and impact at 50 yards.

I know which bullet I would want to count on for Elk/Moose and Bear...Have a nice day,atleast DLA or Sahib or Babbaroonie whome ever your are today....

Your old buddy...Jayco

Jayco, not having an ax to grind against Northfork's fine bullets, or Woodleighs or anybody else, but expansion on dirt/rocks is noted, how do they work on flesh at .45-70 velocities????The NF's I'm addressin'... I dunno. Meaning I DO know how PP and hard cast works, and the only point I'd make is I'm having a difficult time seein' that premium bullet will do any better, dead being dead, etc etc.

Dan-Your right..Dead is Dead but how quick.I have used alot of bargain basket bullets in my younger days on Elk and some would work fine sometimes and other times not.Bullets that fragment and come apart sometimes means some heavy tracking or the Elk went downhill in a hurry,which is the norm for me making the pack out harder than need be and you can't even get the horses there.A bullet that holds together produces better and quicker results on Elk and better penetration which is important at odd angles.

You mentioned 45-70 velocities.Every one is in the opinion it is slower than molasses.The Marlin '95 action is rated at 40,000 CUP by Hodgdons and others.The 450 Marlin at 43,500 PSI while Jim West of Wild West guns takes his Marlin '95 actions to 45,000 CUP from his testing on it.His only adjustment to the action is lengthening it to accomodate the longer OAL of the 457 Wild West Mag.

Buffalo Bores 350 grain is at 2150 fps and Grizzly Cartridges is at 2200 fps all toted to be within the 40,000 CUP margin.Buffalo Bores 300 grain clocks 2350 fps.So with the right powder/bullet combination,the modern 45-70 is quite different than the old SAAMI loads for Trapdoor rifles.

Hitting bones does awfull things to bullets that are not of high quality.I looked and can't find the picture of a 350 North Fork takin from a 6X6 Bull at 213 yards with a muzzle velocity of 2183 fps..The picture of the recovered North Fork is "Exactly" the same as the one I shot into the dirt except for the rock shaving off the solid copper.All but Identical with his 350 breaking bone and rib and penetrating at an angle to be stuck against the far side in the hyde..Not bad for 213 yards on a 6X6 compared to the inexpensive 405 Remington picured and takin from a 300lb Caribou.

To each his own on bullet choice and the velocity or reloading manual you load from but the modern 45-70 with the right bullet/powder combo like the North Fork and the groves that make pressure less/velocity more than something like the Swift A-Frame or others is amazing to me and meats my needs Elk hunting here in Idaho.

I shot one two years ago with the 300 Barnes XFN which penetrated 90% of his body going in just infront of the left rear quarter and exiting through the front right and he was dead on the spot with no more traveling...

Also you can reload North Forks for about $25 bucks a box and Noslers at $14 bucks making them compared to store bough bullets inline and less expensive.If i Can't afford a $25 box of Premium bullets for Elk hunting...I shouldn't be Elk hunting and like I said..I have done that before many times and payed the price in several calibers..

My opinion Dan from hunting where I do in very steep and rugged country but as always..To each his own from what he has learned Elk hunting.I don't like saying..Damned..It worked last year but this one took off and come to find out the bullet exploaded on bone and lacked the penetration to hit the vitals.Not the norm for the Premium bullets and in the old 45-70.

Garrett Cartridges loaded the 405 remington as there very first load in 1989 and soon dropped it from customer complaints of lack of penetration and the bullet blowing up.The 350 Speer and the Hornady 350 RN both made for the 458 Win Mag don't open up untill in the 15-1600 fps range making them a very short range bullet for the 45-70 wile the others are to lightly built and over expand and pancake and I suppose thats why there coming out with North Forks that open down to 1200 fps and are tested to 2650 fps out of the 458 Mag and the new 350 A-Frame that also opens to 1250 fps and holds together as all A-Frames do.

Choices and we have lots now for the 45-70 in barrel length/bullets and velocities with some awesome tested loads putting the 45-70 up there in velocity with some of the big boomers.

Jayco

quote:

Garrett Cartridges loaded the 405 remington as there very first load in 1989 and soon dropped it from customer complaints of lack of penetration and the bullet blowing up.

This is interesting in that a friend used a 405 grain Remington factory load and found just the opposite in that he got great penetration. One bison he shot had literally several feet of penetration from this bullet, but that seemed to be due mostly to an absence of bullet expansion. Other than the rifling marks I think that he could have reloaded that same bullet and used it again.

Odd how different results can be.....

The top is a .45-70, 510gr PP, over 500 gr recovered. Bottom is a .44 Mag PP, 300 grains, 296.5 grains recovered after 22" of penetration thru shoulder and ribs, and a couple of vertebra in a hog. The .45-70 was recovered about arm deep in wet sand from a berm at 100 yards. MV for the .44 was 1535fps, the other at 1600 fps.

Jayco, I'm glad to hear that about the Northforks...everything other than your report was from a super-wissin' loudenboomer...been wondering. My comment ".45-70 velocities" is, upon reflection, misleading as there are several thresholds of pressure for the cartridge. OTOH, shooting lead I don't differentiate the spread. I've not shot the mighty elk true enough, and I'll make you a promise. When the day comes, I won't use the Rem. 405 gr boolit.

Using a Marlin 1895, velocities for a 405gr bullet aren't going to exceed 2000fps. And most guys don't load a 405gr much past 1800fps (Keith load).

At those muzzle velocities, the Remington does fine.

The problem with guys from Idaho, is that they believe in pretty pictures. Why? Because they read lots of magazines. Why? Because they're snowed 9 months of the year.

Does a bullet have to make a pretty mushroom to be effective? NO. Does retaining the jacket matter on a 405gr projectile?. NO.

See folks, there's a lot of guys that have .270Winchester mentality and they apply that thinking to the 45-70. Do cheap bullets explode with the .270W? Yep, sure do, and they don't penetrate very far and make a nasty mess. But set a 405gr, .458" Remington next to a 130gr, .277" Remington. Look at the two and think.

The beauty of the 45-70 is that you don't need a premium bullet.

But this is America where you have the right to spend ridiculous amounts of money for things that make you happy.

So if you bump into me along the foothills along the NF John Day, drinking a cup of coffee while waiting for the horses, next to a very dead Elk shot with a 13cent bullet, sit a awhile and I'll make you a cup too.

quote:

His only adjustment to the action is lengthening it to accomodate the longer OAL of the 457 Wild West Mag.

The action is not lengthened. Modifications are made to the carrier, ejector and ejection port.

quote:

complaints of lack of penetration and the bullet blowing up

Now you are putting words in Randy's mouth. Here is what he actually said.

quote:

At 1700-fps we had numerous reports of bullet breakup and failure to penetrate when used against elk.

So we know there were at least two reports of inadequate performance, but don't know how many more bad reports there were than that or how many bad reports there were out of all of the users of that load. We don't know how many users had success with the load. We don't know if the animals were killed or lost that were the subject of those bad reports. My guess is they died if they were able to determine there was bullet breakup and failure to penetrate.

quote:

North of 61 wrote: The 405 grain bullet pictured at the beginning of this thread was from me. It was recovered from a 300 pound caribou that was quartering away from me and just hit the tree line. The bullet took it behind the ribs and smashed forward through some rib bone to hit the front shoulder at an angle and pulverized about 7" of shoulder. The 50 grain jacket was found at the start of the shoulder bone the 350 grain lead under the skin about 6" further along.

The caribou dropped as if hit with a sledge hammer. Muzzle velocity was 1900 or so and the shot was at around 50 yards.

Total penetration was 2.5 feet or so.

Destruction of tissue was tremendous.

Let's see, a bullet fired at close range that smashed through bone, penetrated 30 inches, retained 86% of its weight and put the animal down with authority constitutes a bullet failure?

Jackfish and DLA on the same page..Good lord..I have seen it all..But heres the thing..Between the two of them you could count the Elk they have shot with any caliber on one hand or maybe even one finger or maybe none at all.

My first Elk hunt was in 1952 in the Selway-Bitteroot of Idaho and through my career I chose logging in central Idaho I have seen more Elk killed than most with different bullets and calibers...To each there own on what works maybe once and what works every time,bullet wise and today,I don't think I will take any Elk hunting advice from two people that have never shot one..To give such advice without any experience doing so is internet BS as usual.

Use whatever bullet you want but I can guarentee niether DLA not Jackfish will be shooting any Elk in the near future,infact on the last hunt Jackfish made he took his .375 H&H not a 45-70,a wise move on his part.DLA on the other hand whom was recently banned from a levergun forum for his attacking personality has never posted in the three years I have been around his post that he has ever shot an Elk with any weapon.

I have payed my dues with bargain basket bullets and chasing Elk to the bottom of the canyon from bullet failure while I have never had that happen with premium bullets.

I suggest this..If you can't afford a box of ammunition for Elk hunting as evidently DLA and Jackfish cannot,then maybe we shouldn't be hunting large animals like Elk.
450 Marlin 325 grain Leverlution...$23.49 per box of 20(Midway USA)
450 Marlin 350 grain North Fork....$23.72 per box of 20(Handloaded)
450 Marlin 300 grain Nosler..........$14.51 per box of 20(Handloaded)
450 Marlin 350 grain Hornady FP...$9.89 per box of 20(Handloaded)

I think most all of us can afford that and not be concerned about bullet failure on large animals.I know which bullets I prefer, from experience on Elk!!!!!


Jayco

Jackfish-Here is the whole E-Mail sent to me from Randy Garrett just so nothing is mis-understood by your twisting of words.

quote:

I checked in with the Marlin forum and noticed the debate you have been having with those that like the 405 grain Remington bullet for elk hunting. I'm a bit surprised by the following the Remington bullet has, as my experience with the bullet was very poor. Our first 45-70 load (offered in 1989) used that bullet at a conservative 1700-fps, not the super fast 2000-fps I read about on the forum. At 1700-fps we had numerous reports of bullet breakup and failure to penetrate when used against elk. As a consequence, I dropped the load and moved to proper hard cast bullets, and our customers never reported bullet failures again. Of course at the higher speeds, any bullet experiences more impact stress and is therefore more likely to fail, and this provides one with another reason to use premium bullets. Given the failures our customers reported with the Remington bullet at 1700-fps, I can only imagine the reports we would have received if we had driven that bullet to 2000-fps!

Whether a guy prefers hard-cast bullets or jacketed bullets, its hard to imagine why anyone would try to economize at the critical moment of ignition. There are a lot of things a guy can economize on, I know I've done plenty of that in my time, but bullets shouldn't be one of them. Elk are just too damn valuable and beautiful to dispatch with a budget bullet!

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
Jackfish and DLA on the same page..Good lord..I have seen it all..But heres the thing..Between the two of them you could count the Elk they have shot with any caliber on one hand or maybe even one finger or maybe none at all.

My first Elk hunt was in 1952 in the Selway-Bitteroot of Idaho and through my career I chose logging in central Idaho I have seen more Elk killed than most with different bullets and calibers...To each there own on what works maybe once and what works every time,bullet wise and today,I don't think I will take any Elk hunting advice from two people that have never shot one..To give such advice without any experience doing so is internet BS as usual.

Use whatever bullet you want but I can guarentee niether DLA not Jackfish will be shooting any Elk in the near future,infact on the last hunt Jackfish made he took his .375 H&H not a 45-70,a wise move on his part.DLA on the other hand whom was recently banned from a levergun forum for his attacking personality has never posted in the three years I have been around his post that he has ever shot an Elk with any weapon.

I have payed my dues with bargain basket bullets and chasing Elk to the bottom of the canyon from bullet failure while I have never had that happen with premium bullets.

I suggest this..If you can't afford a box of ammunition for Elk hunting as evidently DLA and Jackfish cannot,then maybe we shouldn't be hunting large animals like Elk.
450 Marlin 325 grain Leverlution...$23.49 per box of 20(Midway USA)
450 Marlin 350 grain North Fork....$23.72 per box of 20(Handloaded)
450 Marlin 300 grain Nosler..........$14.51 per box of 20(Handloaded)
450 Marlin 350 grain Hornady FP...$9.89 per box of 20(Handloaded)

I think most all of us can afford that and not be concerned about bullet failure on large animals.I know which bullets I prefer, from experience on Elk!!!!!


Jayco

My goodness! You sure know how to take a conversation down into the dirt. I'd tell you to grow up but you're a little old for that.

Don't be offended by thinking people. The world is full of them and they've got their place. It was thinking people who designed and tested the Remington 405gr JSP about 60 years ago. It is thinking people who have figured out that pretty pictures is the key to selling bullets today. I personally think Randy Garrett is pretty smart. He determined that the best way to differentiate his product from the offerings of other ammo makers was to make his own bullet. And finding a rich guy willing to whack Africa's big 5 with it was good marketing.

There's alot that goes into making a good shot in a hunting situation. Very little of that involves the bullet selection. Frankly, what most people blame on "bullet failure" is really just a lousy shot. And of course there are still people out there that think an Elk is just going to magically fall over when you shoot it. Some folks are so offended when an Elk, shot on a ridge, decides to run downhill, away from the hunters, instead of to the back of their pickup 25ft away.

Learning to shoot is best accomplished by shooting. Lots of shooting. It costs less to shoot a 13cent bullet than a $2 bullet.

Personally, I try real hard not to project my 270W experiences onto my 45-70. I guess when I set the two bullets side by side on my reloading bench I noticed they weren't the same.

I'm pretty sure that whether it is a 500+gr PP pushed by Black powder to a sedate 1200fps or a 300gr Nosler launched at the hairy edge of surviable chamber pressure, the Elk 100yds away isn't going to know the difference. And that, my snow-bound Idaho friend, is the beauty of this 130+ year old cartridge.

quote:

infact on the last hunt Jackfish made he took his .375 H&H not a 45-70

Not fact.

So, the .458" 325 grain Hornady LEVERevolution is suitable for elk? It is just a standard cup and core bullet with a gummy tip. It doesn't even have an InterLock ring. The core of a fragmented 405 grain Remington JSP after 30 inches of penetration through flesh and bone weighs more than the LEVERevolution bullet does when it starts out and that will have the same fragmentation and core/jacket separation probelems.

Well DLA-Atleast you are consistant in your thoughts.Whether we agree on bullet choices is not important when you talk 100 yards shots and i talk 200+ yard shots.If I am limited to 100 yard shots in my rifle choice..The 45-70 stay's home..I hunt for meat not bragging rights and I also have seen some Elk hit the canyon floor with the .270 with cheap bullets but very few with Noslers and TB's out of my .270.Owe well..Idaho and Oregon are quite different in terrain,it seems.

You might remember this on another forum you and jackfish posted on and the question was:
45-70 load for Elk
You as always stuck up for the 405 Rem..Atleast your consistant but Jackfish seems confused with this post

quote:

Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
350 grain Northfork FN seated to 2.56" COAL and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Starline brass, 2.095" trim
CCI 200 primer
47 grains H4198 START
51.5 grains H4198 MAXIMUM 2183 fps

http://www.northforkbullets.com/



Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point seated to 2.54" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primers
52 grains Reloder 10 START
58.3 grains Reloder 10 MAXIMUM 2367 fps

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

Good choices but wheres the Remington 405 he so often throws in everyones face and sticks up for?

And to think his bash on me and his fancy words twistin around all over a .13 cent bullet he doesn't even use or recommend on Elk.

Don'tcha just love the net!!!Atleast DLA,Your probably going Elk hunting this year as I am..

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
---much snipped to conserve energy--

Good choices but wheres the Remington 405 he so often throws in everyones face and sticks up for?

And to think his bash on me and his fancy words twistin around all over a .13 cent bullet he doesn't even use or recommend on Elk.

Don'tcha just love the net!!!Atleast DLA,Your probably going Elk hunting this year as I am..

Jayco

I certainly don't need to stick up for jackfish, but I seem to remember he tipped a moose over with the lowly Remington. And a small moose is bigger than a large Elk.

I've eaten moose. I like it better than Elk. If I could hunt moose I would skip Elk. But Elk is all I have here in Oregon.

I'm at the stage in life where I hunt to hunt, not to fill the freezer. Dead Elk are just a lot of work and I'm not getting any younger. a good hunt to me is a week of tromping around out in the middle of absolute nowhere for at least a week. I love kicking the bulls out of bowls - I sit and have a cup of coffee till they get so nervous they bust. I don't get many shots that way but it is fun. I hunt where it is total walkin or horsey - and I don't particularily care for horses because gravity hurts when Mr.Horse does an instant 180 because of a mouse fart.

quote:

Good choices but wheres the Remington 405 he so often throws in everyones face and sticks up for?

I've never said there weren't better choices than the 405 grain Remington JSP. I have said that with a well placed shot the 405 grain Remington JSP driven from 1100 to 2000 fps in a 45-70 is adequate for elk. Might have to pass up some extreme shots. But that would be the case for many rifle/cartridge/bullet combinations. That assessment is based on use of the bullet on big game animals, including an 1100 lbs. moose. You have never used the bullet so shouldn't be able to comment based on your own words. I'd like a nickel for every animal Elmer Keith killed with the 405 grain Remington JSP in his 45-70. He seemed to think it was more than enough for elk driven 1850 fps. He also liked the 405 grain Remington JSP factory round in his 45-70 Century revolver.

We have the same problem with Moose in Idaho.Although I have never had the oppertunity to shoot a Moose because of the money up front involved in drawing for a tag,I have a few freinds that have and they pretty much sum it up as follows frome another that has shot both:

quote:

Elk Are Tough

Elk hunting has changed since Jack O’Connor, Warren Page and Les Bowman roamed those Wyoming mountains. Today’s opportunities on good bulls are harder to find, and many of the best elk are taken in the thick timber at far shorter ranges. Shot placement angles are not always as controllable, and hunters in the know choose a big caliber with heavy, premium bullets that will penetrate from any angle.

A big bull elk weighs 600 to 800 pounds or more - they are the tough guys of the deer family. They will take hits that would put the much - larger moose down for good, yet an elk might run to the other side of the mountain. Bull elk are notorious for their determination and tenacity, and if you don’t kill them well, they can lead you on a chase you will regret to your last breath.

They have thick hides that are often caked with mud; behind that are big, tough muscles and massive bones. A big bull can soak up a lot of bullet energy, and “too much gun†is a lot better than “not enough.†To cause enough damage to something as big as an elk, you need deep penetration to reach important organs.

Unlike you Don,I hunt for meat or I would not hunt.I did not hunt last year because of finances but this year is quite different.My wife and son have been with me on many Elk kills and each year they ask which bullet I am useing. Makes it easy for me to buy bullets anyway but the point is the work involved when a bullet does not do it's job and you can't even get the horses where it decided to die.Cheap bullets are not an option for me "Anymore" for Elk!!!Been there done that with the same attitude you hold today.If I can't afford to use a good bullet,I can't afford to hunt Elk as the bullet second only to shot-placement is the final word in your hunt being successful and fun to possibly successful and miserable.

Everyone keeps saying 45-70 velocities and 100 yard shot's.The 45-70 is very capable of 300 yard shots with the proper bullet/powder combination and be under 40,000 CUP.Accurate Powders has a 350 grain Speer/450 Marlin load at 2247 fps and only 39,000 PSI..Pushing a quality .458/350 grain bullet over 2200 fps is hard on anything it hits or the Nosler 300 grain over 2350 fps and under 40,000 PSI in a 45-70..Stretches things out a bit for the old 45-70 and the Nosler opens at 700 fps.In a Guide Gun at 2300 fps and under 40,000 CUP it looks like this.

Making it a 250/300 yard shooter if need be not a 100 yard brush gun only and again,under 40,000 PSI not the higher CUP at that pressure range but PSI!!!

The Remington 405 comes with the cannalures in the wrong place,as you know DLA from a post of yours on what to do.The Remington 405 was also built for Remington's factory ammunition which clocks around 1330 fps so you figure out that one unlike the Nosler from 700 fps to 2300 fps or the North Fork from 1200 fps to over 2650 fps which is faster than any levergun can push it but North Fork tested it to .458 Win Mag velocities.

As I said..To each his own and to the sportsman out there that enjoy the outdoors more than the kill,by all means buy the Remington 405 but if you are a meat hunter and hunt in Grizzly Country,I strongly suggest a better built bullet for your own hyde which is happening much more frequently than before.

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:

quote:

Elk Are Tough

Elk hunting has changed since Jack O’Connor, Warren Page and Les Bowman roamed those Wyoming mountains.

--snip--
but if you are a meat hunter and hunt in Grizzly Country,I strongly suggest a better built bullet for your own hyde which is happening much more frequently than before.

Jayco

Oh brother! Now we've got armor-plated Elk and Kevlar Grizzlies

As somebody once said, "yeah right".

<sigh>

I have offered you several times to come to Idaho...DLA!!!Come on over for FREE!!!!!I do live 50 some odd miles from the Selway-Bitteroot and Frank Church Wilderness's and the Gospal Hump Wilderness is even closer.

We ain't got Grizzly's/Wolves or Wolerines anywhere in Idaho..You no that and if we did..They don't bite...My neighbor from Elk City was just a fibbin when he was attacked from the backside over an Elk Kill...

Come straighten out us Ideeho boy's on technique.

Jayco

See Idaho is special,DLA.We already have Grizzlies and have had since time but the goverment keeps putting the "Problem" Grizzlies in my back yard..So I feel compelled to arm myself with a better bullet than the Tin Foiled Remington 405..

quote:

VANCOUVER, B.C. -- Beginning next year, grizzly bears from British Columbia could be following in the paw prints of wolves and lynx as the latest Canadian import aimed at restoring predator populations in the American West.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service wants to restore the solitary, ferocious ursus horribilis to the vast Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness Area of Idaho and Montana, where Lewis and Clark shot grizzlies on their epic journey nearly 200 years ago.

But Canadian conservationists are divided over whether it is wise to remove grizzlies from the Kootenay region of southeast British Columbia.


Some British Columbia grizzly bears like this one could be transplanted to the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness Area.Paul Joseph Brown/P-I
Wayne McCrory, a grizzly bear biologist who serves on a scientific advisory panel to the British Columbia government, likes the idea.

"Quite frankly, any grizzlies going to the United States would have a lot more value put on their lives than bears do in British Columbia right now," he said.

McCrory points out that Canada does not have an endangered species act and cites widespread shooting of bears that have allegedly menaced humans.

"If we blow away 90 to 100 'problem' bears a year, I have no problem with sending 13 of them to the Bitterroots," he said.

Yep..My backyard..Spent the day there Sunday with lot's of sign if you like Wolves and Bears.

Jayco

The average Rocky Mountain Grizzly Bear is under 500 lbs, the rare extreme maybe 850 lbs. No problem for a 405 grain chunk of lead alloy with a thin copper jacket crimped to the core in three places and launched 1100 to 2000 fps. Knowing how to act in bear country is at least as important than any adequate weapon one may employ, and at least as important as being able to properly place shots with that weapon.

You should no Jackfish..Right..How many Rocky Mountain Grizz have you ran into?I've seen several and I can tell you up close and personal they weigh more like 2,000 pounds and they make my heart beat like it never has.Most run like the dickens but some stand there ground..Gotta be there and experience it to appreciate having enough Gun and "Bullet".

Once again, like Elk,your commenting on something you have never seen or done.

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
The average Rocky Mountain Grizzly Bear is under 500 lbs, the rare extreme maybe 850 lbs. No problem for a 405 grain chunk of lead alloy with a thin copper jacket crimped to the core in three places and launched 1100 to 2000 fps. Knowing how to act in bear country is at least as important than any adequate weapon one may employ, and at least as important as being able to properly place shots with that weapon.

Jackfish-Since were on Accurate Arms forums..Let's quote Phil Shoemaker.

quote:

If this forum is for picking one rifle for ALL N AM game including bears (instead of simply who's favorite big bore is potentially a better bear slayer) and all you are looking at is one or two bears in a lifetime then anything from the .270 thru the .338 will fit the bill perfectly. My vote is with the 30-06 because I have one that I have used all over the globe but I certaily wouldn't argue with anyone who chooses a 7mm or 300 magnum either.

I have settled on the Buffalo Bore 430 hard cast bullets in both mine and my wife's 45-70 bear defense rifles. If a bear gets to you when you use these it won't be because of bullet failure.

Don't make me get his bullet choices for Bear,Black and Brown cuzz your bullets arn't mentioned but the North Fork is as there is no better bullet for Bear.

Jayco

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I believe they are ignored because most 45-70 shooters realize they don't need $2 bullets.

DLA-Please go to the Alaskan Forum and explain to Phil Shoemaker why he does not need $2.00 Buffalo Bore bullets in his 45-70.And don't forget to tell him that a 430 grain bullet at 1930 fps is an overload!!!

If you can convince him the Remington 405 is adequate for angry Bears,then I will listen.

Gotta go now but I just expected more from you today so I will just fade away!!!

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:

quote:

I believe they are ignored because most 45-70 shooters realize they don't need $2 bullets.

DLA-Please go to the Alaskan Forum and explain to Phil Shoemaker why he does not need $2.00 Buffalo Bore bullets in his 45-70.And don't forget to tell him that a 430 grain bullet at 1930 fps is an overload!!!

If you can convince him the Remington 405 is adequate for angry Bears,then I will listen.

Gotta go now but I just expected more from you today so I will just fade away!!!

Jayco

The 405gr Remington at 1800fps has the same momentum and produces a larger wound channel than the .375H&H 270gr SP @2700fps within 50yds. So when I'm placing myself in a situation where I don't feel comfortable with .375H&H using soft points, then I won't feel comfortable with my Guide Gun and the lowly Remington 405gr JSP.

I like the 30-06, but my silly Guide Gun packs a whole lot more wallop than any 06 loading I've experienced. I'm too poor to own a .375H&H, kindof wish I did though as it's ballistics are like the 06 but with heavier bullets.

I've never seen a Grizzly up close and standing still. I've always seen them moving away at 200mph. I don't think I've seen any bear, black or Grizzly that topped 300lbs. I know they exist but I guess I live a sheltered life.

Again, you are quick to assume. I have indeed had ENCOUNTERS with grizzly and brown bears and avoided having to shoot any of them. In two instances I didn't even have a gun (or pepper spray) with me.

You certainly can't be serious. Even the largest Kodiak brown bears on record do not weigh 2000 lbs. Don't expect me to be sympathetic to your fears.

You shouldn't try to guess about what I have or haven't seen or done. You also have steered the discussion away from hunting elk - to a chance encounter with a grizzly bear while elk hunting - to what some renowned person says is their bear defense weapon in Alaska. It really doesn't quite follow. With that logic you must think that everyone who hunts elk in bear country had now better use a 45-70 lever gun with 430 grain hard cast Buffalo Bores.

Plain and simple, to say that the 405 grain Remington JSP in a stout 45-70 load is not adequate for elk hunting is wrong. Your hero Elmer Keith said as much. Is it the best suited bullet or cartridge? No, I conceded that. One might have to pass on extreme shots. Are there other rifle/cartridge/bullet combinations that are used elk hunting every year that are in the same situation. Certainly. There is adequate, and then there is what jayco says is necessary. No, jayco what you think is necessary is not necessary.

You can rail all you want about the virtues of premium bullets. I just wonder how the mountain men you seem so enamoured with ever made it, not being able to kill elk and grizz with a 50-caliber ball and all.