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I have an 1895 Marlin Cowboy -- 9 rounds in the tube -- that I plan to take w. me to the Eastern part of Zambia in March. I've had a bit of custom work done to it -- trigger, lever, recoil pad, and some cosmetic work. I shoot it well, and fast -- been using lever guns regularly since I was 10. It has low(er) recoil rounds to practice with that aren't too expensive (~0.70/per round) and even the high power ones aren't too bad -- the garretts that I plan on taking are pretty high, but I don't think I'll need too many of those to get me used to it. I've heard some rumors, etc that it's not powerful enough for hippo, buffalo, etc., but I have a hard time believing that -- it's certainly more powerful, I think, that anything being used in the 1900s, and probably in the 1950s -- and I do shoot it quite well. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. | ||
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Here we go again.  ______________________ Age and Treachery Will Always Overcome Youth and Skill | |||
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I don't want to get into the merits of the 45-70. You may want to do a search on this forum and get some insight into your question. You may also want to check out the post on favorite cartridges for Buffalo. Then compare the energy of those cartridges to the 45-70 Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Maybe you are for real. But I doubt that a fellow who is paying the kind of money that it costs to hunt Zambia would really think that the 45-70 has an advantage because the practice rounds are cheap.  | |||
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Aglifter The 45-70 is decidedly less powerful than the majority of African DG rifles from the early 1900's or the 1950's. If you want to take your 45-70 feel free, but remember, you pay the trophy fee whether you kill or wound, whether you recover the animal or not.  | |||
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The "cosmetic work" will really help you out when that buff charges you, you freak out and get a lever gun jammed, then the PH gets to use his BOLT ACTION or DOUBLE RIFLE to save your but. USE ENOUGH GUN and DON'T USE A LEVER GUN ON THINGS THAT WANT TO EAT YOU OR KILL YOU.  I think we need to watch out for  Mink and Wall Tents don't go together. Especially when you are sleeping in the Wall Tent. DRSS .470 & .500 | |||
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Still, it's nice to see posts about African hunting again isn't it? - even if it is this old chestnut!    | |||
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I have a 45-70 Marlin Guide gun. I love the gun and have shot a moose, black bear, deer and alot of coyote. I like using the 300 grain Barnes X. I can't rember the powder off hand but the bullet does 1900 fps. I would like to use it in Africa because it is such a nice light accurate and relativly powerfull gun. It has been done by many. Everything that can be shot in Africa has been shot with a 45-70 including the big 5. However I don't think it is a good idea. The 45-70 has many good qualities however I don't think that it shines in Africa. I have hunted in Africa 2 times. In my limited experience I think you need heavy for caliber cartriges that can shoot premium bullets at least 2000 fps for 500grain projectiles. This is what you need for the big stuff like hippo, buff and of course elephant. The only thing that the 45-70 would be good for in Africa would be leopard and possibly loin over bait. The shot distance would be relativly short and you don't need a cannon to kill cats, just a good bullet and good shot placement. The 45-70 would be OK on most plains game as long as you limited your shots to inside of 150 yards, after which its rainbow like trajectory begins to show. Hunting in Africa is something that I can only afford to do every 3 to5 years so IMHO I don't need to "stunt hunt" with a pet gun or calliber to prove a point. Just like Jim Shockey hunting everything from sheep to African Buff with a muzzleloader. Or people bowhunting elephant and buff. Which is a totaly inapropriate weapon choice. I think it shows a lack of care for the animal. If you are going to hunt it, it is your responsibility to use a weapon system that has the best chance of making a quick and clean kill. WHY would anyone want to wound and loose animals???? There is a reason why there are so many 375H&H and 458 win Mags used in Africa, it is because you need shot placement and a big gun for most of the stuff over there. Others have gotten by with a 45-70 and other less that sensible choices for their own reasons. However I just like to have a little margin for error because no matter how much you practice shit happens and sometimes you need extra bullet weight, velocity and a hole going in and a big hole coming out.  NRA Life DRSS Searcy 470 NE The poster formerly known as Uglystick | |||
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Gentlemen, If you think Aglifter might be genuinely interested in hunting with a 45-70, and you wish to dissuade him, give him your reasons of why you would not hunt with a 45-70. If you think he is trying to bait you, the best way is to ignore him. But, there is absolutely no reason to have a go at someone who is planning to do something you would never do. That is how pissing maches start, and I am sure we all wish to avoid them. | |||
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Sound advice, I think. "If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get steadier, get steadier." | |||
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ok, I'l bite. If you are going in March to Zambia, who is your outfitter, PH how long is your safari planned for, and what specific animals are on your trophy list? Also is your rifle scoped, if so what kind and what loadings do you use? While I wouldn't use the rifle caliber in question, good luck and hopefully you'll show us your pictures and tell us your story when you get back. Good luck! jorge PS: How's that, Saeed? Spoken like a true gentleme Jorge! USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Open a window, I am going to jump..... Please ban any discussion of this antique cartridge on the Africa forum..... | |||
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Aglifter, Back on the 21st of February last year I responded to a similar query from another poster. After reviewing my previous post, I have to say that my opinion hasn't changed over the last year! Here's my "dos centavos", FWIW... (from 2/21/05) Good afternoon all! The lever gun question seems to surface every so often (particularly in reference to dangerous game), with similar feedback each time from two separate camps… One camp hasn’t done it yet but thinks it’d be the new death-ray; the other camp hasn’t done it either but prophesies a slow painful death for any that attempt it. I have done it once (in ’02; a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in…gasp!….45-70) so I feel that I can speak with some small measure of authority. I make no claims to be an expert, either expressed or implied…I’ll merely relate my own experience. I carried that saddlegun over to Zim for one reason and one reason only; to hunt leopard with hounds. That type of hunt may present shots from 100 yards to tag-you’re-it distance on a fast moving spottie. A shotgun might get the nod up real close, but becomes useless as the range opens up. Conversely, your pet scoped rifle is a winner way out there, but dicey up close. I decided that a big levergun with a ghost ring heaving a big soft slug at moderate velocity would cover both scenarios and provide faster follow-up shots than any bolt gun I own. I guess I “got away with it†because that spottie is on my wall. Sorry, no tales of him charging me after being wounded, nor shooting clear through the beast to slay a couple of lined-up buffalo on the far side either. Would’ve taken a warthog with it during the trip if circumstances had allowed, but the bride’s .270 was a better answer when an ungulube volunteered. For this particular application the lever gun is (by my lights) the right tool for the job. For plains game, a bolt gun in the calibers you mention is a far better proposition. For the heavy stuff, well…that answer begins with the .375 and goes up from there. BTW, didn't Cottar cash in when a rhino took him to task for his choice of the Win 95/.405 combo? Hmmm, very instructive... FWIW, "my" Marlin now belongs to a fellow Cowboy Action shooter, its job is done on the Dark Continent as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, them’s the cards I’m holding…good hunting to each of you! Mark **Flashback concluded...*** Best of luck to you; whatever you decide! Good hunting, Mark DRSS "I always take care to fire into the nearest hillside and, lacking that, into darkness." - the late Dr. Hunter S. Thompson | |||
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why is it if someone chooses to use a bow, 45-70, MZL for DG it is considered a "stunt hunt"? Is someone with more $ than hunting skill whom buys a $25K .600 NE DBL Gun suddenly NOT doing a stunt hunt when he heads out after buff,ele,or hippo? A persons choice of weapons is THEIR choice as long as legal. Much like tooling around on a chopped and raked cycle vs. a mophead | |||
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Jorge, My apologies. I did not mean to add to your post, but I must have pressed the wrong button. I just added the ;ast line though. | |||
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I have also heard it done on bull buff in RSA but it seems like a marginal choice. For antelope, no sweat, there is no reason why it won't work. I reckon for buff you have to really pick your shots with the right bullets and, as we have heard above, you are forking out money for a buff and may not time to to be ultra picky about shots (i.e. waiting for a perfect shot in behind the shoulder to avoid heavy bone etc etc). I mean, I met a zoologist from Moz who shot buff with a .30-06 and said he never lost one but that still doesn't mean it is ideal (along with all the W.D.M. Bell 7x57 stories etc). many hunters loved the .318WR on buff but many of those may have been superb hunters and bushmen who might have learned some hard lessons in the beginning. To call it a stunt...i don't know. I do think buying a .460WBY that you are terrified to shoot and can't shoot or that 25k .600 double is also silly...in my opinion!!! Buts thats my opinion. I reckon the .45/70 is a not so great a choice for a once off buff hunt. It can do the job, but your margin for error becomes very very slight in an unpredictable environment and why take that risk? Perhaps take it for PG and try that out? Contact you outfitter and PH too. | |||
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Tembo: I was about to jump in until I read your post. You said it all! ( I still say that we need a stake and a hammer to end this argument!) | |||
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I happen to like the 45-70. I also have taken one Buffalo - with a 375 H&H. I'd like to take another but with a 416 or 470. The 45-70 would be fun in Africa but only for plainsgame, maybe leopard, but that's it. When they bite back I like a little margin for error. TerryR | |||
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For the calm responses, I thank you. I think practice ammo cost is a concern, because I have shot a few hundred rounds through it -- not that I couldn't afford it relative to the cost of the trip, but that I'm happy to go out and "plink" with it on a weekend. And, I can buy it at my local gunshop. I'm actually heading to Zambia to look at starting a combination cattle/game ranch -- the Zambians that I'm going over with want me to go hunting with them as well -- I think this is a bit like business golf in the US -- as it is being arranged by the individuals I'm meeting with, I don't know any of the details, other than in the Luwanga valley. I apologize if I appeared to be "baiting." The main opinion I was looking for was one of proficieny vs. capacity -- a man could be flawless with a 22, but shouldn't take it hunting for more than rabbits -- I will look at the power difference -- any thoughts on a 444 marlin -- not really that familiar with the caliber, but it is available in a levergun. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. | |||
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Aglifter I don't get into these 45-70 things but I was very interested when you said you were hunting in the Luangwa in March. March is definitely not prime time in the Luangwa so I'm glad you stated you are not booked threre for a regular safari. A March hunt should be very interesting if not a butt puckering experience in that tall grass. It might not be my first choice but I believe your 45-70 with Garrett or Buffalo Bore heavy bullet loads will definitelly work for buff at moderate range. Your in for adventure! Watch out for hippo. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Aglifter I wouldn't hunt Buffalo with anything less than a 375 H&H, and I consider the 45-70, 444, or other rounds that the Marlin chambers to be less than the 375. If I were you I would look for a good used 375 and take that. If you are relocating, or will be going there regularly, you will get plenty of use out of a 375. As for practice, reload and buy a bolt action 22lr. TerryR | |||
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Mark, Other than the 45/70 being illegal in most, all? countries where buff are hunted free range I would give it a try in some relatively open country at moderate ranges. The problem with the definition of moderate range for the 45/70 is, I think, that it can't be too long but even more critically, it can't be too short. If the visibility really sucks like you say, I would want one hell of alot more rifle. Wouldn't you? JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Aglifter, Good for you. Hope it works out. How about a detailed report on your hunt. Roger QSL | |||
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Aglifter. Your 45-70 will do just fine. However If you plan to hunt P/G at long distances you may wish to consider another caliber. | |||
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Mitchell/Carmello, would you please post the pictures of your 46" Buff taken with your 45-70. Thanks in advance.... | |||
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Hey Cats, I did not mean to insult anyone. If you can reliably and repeatably take the animals you hunt with the weapon system of your choice honorably and quickly then there is no "stunt hunting" IMO However when it comes to hunting some of the realy big, tough and thick skinned animals I would like to know why anyone in their right mind would go after them with a bow or a muzzleloader with a clear conscience. I am of course talking about Buff, hippo, rino and of course elephant. NRA Life DRSS Searcy 470 NE The poster formerly known as Uglystick | |||
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This is when I started to worry. If these blokes are farmers or businessmen, and there is no experenced PH to keep an eye on you, I wouldn't like to be the one to "upset" a buffalo. | |||
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Just as a matter of experience - I recently took a blue wildebeest with a 45-70. This one weighed in at about 500lbs and my results were a bit surprising given my expectations. I have shot several blues with a 375 and always had good results. I was interested in using the 45-70 as I was thinking about carrying the rifle when around lion as I thought the slow speed but good weight of the bullet would be ideal lion medicine in a charge and the quick handling and light weight of the gun would be ideal for long camping trips. I shot the wildebeest at about 60 yards and to be honest was a bit surprised at the experience of the shot as I had never actually shot a large animals with the gun and was used to what happens when you hit a wildebeest with a 375 - they tend to either fall over or are knocked back (or down) and stagger before running a short distance - even on a moderate shot. With the 45-70 it really was more like a blackpowder experience - I fired and the distinctly heard the "plop" of the hit- my PH said "good shot" - the wildebeest stood looking at us for a brief second - not even a ripple from him indicating an impact - and then proceeded to run at a vigerous pace from left to right. We were in fairly open country with a slight hill that the bull was running towards - I rechambered a round and inquired "shoot again" and the PH said "no" you hit him well. at 200 meters, watching an accelarating bull, the PH said "maybe just put one in for safety" which I then attempted to do unsuccesfully and thus started four frustrating hours of trailing a "well shot" wildebeest bull over hill and dale. We eventually found the bull two kilometres away. One bullet hole going in which had missed the heart (behind) by about 1 inch and nicked the lung. On cleaning the animal we found a perfectly expanded bullet. The 45-70 had performed flawlessly , my shot could have been better but was not trajically bad. the bullet just didn't have enough "oomph" to knock a big tough animal down like a large African calibre. I would not now shoot a buff or even any larger plains game with a 45-70 (eland, wildebeest gemsbok etc.) and I have shelved the idea of this having the knock down power for lion at very close range. I do like to plink with it and has layed many an impala low but even with these it rarely knocks the animal flat. I do not think it is an African rifle - not fast enough and doesn't hit hard enough - these animals are too tough - in my opinion and from using the calibre on even moderate sized plains game - Just my experience. | |||
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AGlifter,The elephant grass is as high as the sausage trees in the Luangwa Valley, in March, and is green, so it won't burn.  If you get on a Buffalo, lion, or leopard it is going to be very close! Besides the 45-70 being illegal in the strictest terms, it simply is not up to the task for close in Cape Buffalo,or Hippo, IMO. As some one above stated it is not well suited at longer range either, so you window of capability is pretty narrow! Someone mentioned that a lot of locals use a 30-06 to shoot Buffalo, which is also illegal, but I would far rather have a 30-06 with 220 gr Barnes Super Solid bullets @ 2400 fps than anything you will get from a 45-70 with any reasonable ammo, shot from a Marlin lever gun. The 45-70 is a very nice old "MAN" killer, from the 1800s, and it is a very nice woods rifle for North America, it is a fun thing to play with, but in my opinion, Buffalo are not noted for playing! You may do as you please, but I, for one, don't think it is a very good idea. One other thing one needs to think about are the local people who travel around in the bush, are put in extreme danger if you wound a Bufflao, or Hippo, and he gets away, into the bush. Wounded, and angry, he will stomp hell out of anyone who gets close to him. That may be some poor slob who wasn't even aware the buff was in the Valley!  If you decide to go on with this venture, then please if you shoot a buffalo, or Hippo with your 45-70, follow him as long as it takes to finish the job! Nothing less is acceptable! I, however, would simply find myself a good used 375 H&H bolt rifle, and some premium ammo designed for Buffalo, and do my thing! One thing in your favor is you are going to a place where there are some good populations Buffalo, Hippo, lion and Leopard, but carrying a 45-70, that may not be a good thing.  PS:Read the Quote in my sig line below!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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then to your way of thinking it would indeed require a 12 ga to hunt rabbits too. Not to mention doves with a 20 ga. Bigger is just 1 option. Let us talk buffalo, when it comes to killing one does a buff's heart know if it was skewered by a .500 or a ,458 or a 810 grain shaft? That blood pump is still in damage control mode. Yeah,yeah I've heard it a 1000 times "...well buff have over lapping rib bones...etc." Busting a rib bone or going thru the shoulder muscle on a buff really is not that big of a deal with today's equipment. Most whom make that type of comment know little of todays modern archery gear.Still envisioning native Americans riding bareback in western TV flicks lobbing shafts at a wagon train. | |||
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I honestly believe it all comes down to what you rifle/caliber combination you shoot best. The trouble with hot-rodded 45-70's (personal experience) is that they can be loaded to levels that equal the original .404 jeffery ballistics but done so as a significant expense in the way of recoil. (when shot out of leverguns) With such dramatic increases in recoil I would find it difficult to make the claim that my hot-rodded 45-70 is my best handling gun. I've limited my h/r 45-70 loads to 50 yards max as my rule of thumb to ensure a quick humane kill. If you are not adverse to heavy recoil and/or you have a good PH backing you up then you'll be fine. | |||
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Thank you for that excellent account of your personal experience. | |||
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Berger: Your experience is your experience I do not doubt that. But to assume because you have shot a wildebeest with your 45-70 not knocking it off it's feet ending in a good hike to trail it up. Is reason enough to not use it on even larger PG, is well... not enough to convince many myself included in that group. If you missed the heart to the rear even if slight it was a gut shot. Missed it high and you had lungs ..no animal will run gaining speed with a lung shot over an extended range. Missed forward an you still hit lungs or brisket (non lethal with any caliber).So what you had is a poorly placed gut shot providing a long trailing jopb indeed. But not the fault of the 45-70. I've killed plenty of animals over 500# with a 45-70. Moose,elk,bison,bears all fell to properly placed bullets...quickly. | |||
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Berger, Could you tell us the load you used for the Wildebeest? Factory ammo or a handload? Bullet weight; velocity? Thanks, -Bob F. | |||
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JPK, I knew I should have stayed out of this if 45-70 was even mentioned. What I said was the 45-70 would not be my first choice for buffalo but it would definitely work. Work means it will kill a buffalo and I don't think anyone can question that with the right bullets. On the other hand I'm not in any way endorsing the 45-70 for buffalo or Heaven forbid hippo. Actually you will not find me hunting along the Luangwa in the tall grass anytime soon with any weapon. I'll leave that to the younger and more bullet proof than I. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Aglifter, I will take you at your word and give you an honest answer. The .45-70 would be marginal, AT BEST, on large plains game, much less dangerous game, and the .444 Marlin, using an even lighter bullet with even less sectional density, and being therefore less powerful still, would be inadequate, IMHO. If I were you, I would buy, practice with, and take along a .375 H&H Mag.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Carmello, How do you know this? Oh yeah you supposedly took a 46" buff in Botswana with a 45-70 after hunting season had ended. You know you would think before you made up a story you would at least check to see if the season was actually open in the first place. Why is Carmello/Mitchell allowed to post here. Didn't he actually steal a user's login info and post about his imaginary buffalo with it. | |||
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I'll look at my notes this morning and post the load etc. (family is still asleep here). Concerning Cats comment - I recognize that it was not an ideal shot, but I have certainly made many "less ideal" shot on big plains game with 375's and had much more satisfactory outcomes. At 60 yards or so the bullet in the 45-70 did everything it was supposed to do, except deliver enough shock and penetration to turn a mediocre shot into a quick death. I pretty much agree with most of the individuals posting from Africa about the 45-70 - great fun, lightweight and the one whitetail I shot with it looked like it had been hit by a truck - but African game is tougher than North American game in all aspects - in my opinion - You cannot comapre a 500 pound elk with a 500 lb wildebeest - and before someone slags me off - I grew up hunting in North America and have shot plenty of N. American game at similar weights and had the privelage of comparing this to African animals and I just dont think there is a comparison. African antelopes come from a different evolutionary background - their bones are thicker, they are built heavier lb for lb and go down a lot harder. When you add this to the fact that there are still many varied tough carnivores in Africa - something absent in N. America (except for polar bears in the far north) - then you have animals that are also prepared for fight and flight and they do go down harder. The 45-70 could probably kill just about any African animal with a perfectly placed shot - most calibres have I would presume - but when trophy hunting for animals that you more than likely will not have a "perfect" shot on and must take a good shot and stop the animal within a reasonable and humane distance and then - if neccessary follow up your "good" shot that didn't stop the charging animal with a "great" shot that does stop it - I don't think the 45-70 is in the calibre of rifles and bullets designed to deliver this "great shot" on an adrenalin charged angry animal like a buffalo and most certainly not an elephant. | |||
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BERGER, an absolutely perfectly made case! The 45-70 is fun, but is not an African cartridge for the most part, and a real danger to it's shooter on the mad, and vindictive things like Cape Buffalo! It is illegal for a reason! That is because it doesn't meet the legal standards, for energy/ bullet dia! However, even if it were legal, IMO, it certainly is not a good idea. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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#1 if you can not place a killing shot and settle for a "less than ideal" shot placement you my SA friend shouldn't consider yourself a sportsman. As to promote such poor shot placement because you are "trophy hunting" (in your words) is little less than unethical giving sportsmen/women world wide a black eye. #2 Since when are elk the simpliest of beasts to drop? An animal BTW that exceeds 500# as a juvinile. Also let us not forget to mention big toothy bears whom prey on other large game such as moose. Whom BTW easily exceed a full grown elk for boody mass. #3 In truth the 45-70 is not the ideal DG but for PG under 200 yds will for exceed the killing capacity needed. #4 I'd like to see all these "blown off it's feet" death blows you've performed. I have killed my share of game animals. from Doves to Brown bears. I've carried my Ruger 458 Lott and killed whitetails with it. As I prepared for upcomming Brown bear trips. NEVER have I seen any game animal picked up an "blown off it's feet". I have seen game drop at the shot, I have seen game pushed sideways, I have seen game jump at impact but I've NEVER witnessed anything other than a cottontail shot with a 30-06 blown off its feet. | |||
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