Thinking if there is any real benefit to having a 45-70 capacity case that is about 1.8” long to use flat point nominal 458 bullets like a 45-70-500 in a lever action or use the extra useable case capacity to shoot 400 grain bullets to get 45-90 performance but in a nominal 45-70 OAL? Neck an improved 348 case to 458 for the same capacity in a shorter case.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:


Thinking if there is any real benefit to having a 45-70 capacity case that is about 1.8” long to use flat point nominal 458 bullets like a 45-70-500 in a lever action or use the extra useable case capacity to shoot 400 grain bullets to get 45-90 performance but in a nominal 45-70 OAL? Neck an improved 348 case to 458 for the same capacity in a shorter case.

The 348 has been already been done,it's called the 450 Alaskan & the 45-90 is about the same performance wise.

I was thinking of a shorter case. 1.8”.

And the 45-90 never used 400 grain bullets. It was an Express round using only 300 grains and a 36 inch twist.
Is there any advantage to making a shorter 450 Alaskan? No.

DPCD said "And the 45-90 never used 400 grain bullets. It was an Express round using only 300 grains and a 36 inch twist."

That was true of the original 45-90( long ago and far away), but not so now. The twist is now about the same as the 45-70 and it handles bullets up to 450 grains at 2150 fps quite well; at least my Miroku/Winchester 1886 .45-90 does. It still shoots 300 grain bullets quite well up to 2600 fps (at least mine does), showing that there was really no need to handicap the 1886 rifle with the 36 inch twist rate.

Maybe it is still an Express round for 300 , 350, 400, 450, etc. bullets.

It was called the .45-75 and was a bottle neck cartridge chambered in the Winchester Model 1876 lever action. The 1876 action was not long enough to take the straight .45-70. The 1876 was also chambered in the .45-60, which was simply a .45-70 shortened to fit the action.

I've got a 1904 Abercromby & Fitch Camp Outfits catalog that lists nine different .45 calibres chambered in the M86 Winchester - three versions of the .45-70 plus the .45-90, .45-85-300, .45-85-350 and .45-82-405.

Were any of those last three just heavier loadings of the .45-90 Win or were they Ballard or Marlin cartridges? Were rifles chambered to use them given faster twists?

So, if the 45-75 neck was shortened about 1/10th of an inch, my minds cartridge would be this. Thanks! Still wondering about any real benefits, but it is interesting. Thanks for the heads up on this case

I have built many 45 2.4 inch rifles using 18 inch twists and using 550 grain bullets; however the 2.4 inch case was a 45-90 only from Winchester, as I said. From Sharps and others, it was the 45. 2.4 inch with different twists and bullets, and other names.
People can call anything with a 2.4 inch case a 45-90; it isn't. Modern 86s do use the old name, 45-90, with 45-70 barrel specs; since no one knows or cares about what the real 45-90 WCF was. But I do, and like to be historically, and technically, correct.
The 45-75 was what the Mounties used in their Model 76s.
As for the 45-85; true, those were based on the 2.4 inch case and Win, Marlin, and Ballard had them, but they were not 45-90s. Only the 45-90 WCF was, and is, a 45-90. It's in the name.

I am in awe of your great knowledge on the subject. Thank you for sharing. This forum is such a great place for learning.

I’m curious what platteform this 1.8” cased round would be used in? More rounds in the tube mag? What purpose? More rounds in the mag is always good in my book.

dpcd,
Thank you for the clarification!

So, my 1886 is a 45-90 and a .458 2.4 , BUT being a .458 2.4 does not make that cartridge a .45-90.

I agree!

I kinda like my .45-90.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
I’m curious what platteform this 1.8” cased round would be used in? More rounds in the tube mag? What purpose? More rounds in the mag is always good in my book.

I was thinking a marlin lever action.
If the case capacity was the same as the 45-70 but shorter and the OAL the same, you would get 45-90 performance and the ability to use nominal 458 rifle bullets with a flat point. If you had an improved 348 case to 458 that is 2.0” long, then you could really send a wallop in a model 71 with flat point 458 rifle bullets.

Or you could just use the 470 Turnbull designed for the marlin and get something that was already designed and proven. I guess you lose a bit of bullet flexibility but if maximum wallop is what you want, it beats a 45/70. If you really want wallop go 50 alaskan.

Not equivalent, rimless, faster, shorter. 500 automax is worth a look. Big Horn Armory lists it as AR500 here.

450 Bushmaster 250 2200 2687 35
50 Beowulf 350 1820 2575 45
AR500 350 2207 3786 55
AR500 400 1960 3413 56
AR500 440 1838 3301 57

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I was thinking a marlin lever action.
If the case capacity was the same as the 45-70 but shorter and the OAL the same, you would get 45-90 performance and the ability to use nominal 458 rifle bullets with a flat point. If you had an improved 348 case to 458 that is 2.0” long, then you could really send a wallop in a model 71 with flat point 458 rifle bullets.

Isn't that what a .450 Alaskan is? Plus it fits in a Marlin 1895.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
dpcd,
Thank you for the clarification!

So, my 1886 is a 45-90 and a .458 2.4 , BUT being a .458 2.4 does not make that cartridge a .45-90.

I agree!

I kinda like my .45-90.

Whether kosher or not, the name certainly rolls off your tongue easier

Buckeye shooter said "Or you could just use the 470 Turnbull designed for the marlin and get something that was already designed and proven. I guess you lose a bit of bullet flexibility but if maximum wallop is what you want, it beats a 45/70. If you really want wallop go 50 alaskan."

As I have previously documented, my African loads for my .45-90 already exceed the ballistics of the .470 Turnbull in velocity and energy. The 45-90 450 grain Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps are well up into the lower 50 ALASKAN AND .458 wIN mag ranges.

No dpcd, modern 45-90 DG loads are not those of the original .300 grain .45-90, but "Times They Are a Changing!"

With a salute to History and economy, the Miroku/Winchester .45-90 also does well with .45-70 ammo from 300 grain bullets on up. In fact, the 300 grain Nosler Protected Point at 2200 fps has proven to be an excellent Leopard and plains game load.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I was thinking of a shorter case. 1.8”.

Consider how closely Winchester's 45-75, the first cartridge chambered for the Centennial Model, or the 45-60 (a 45-70 case shortened), also chambered in the Centennial Model, emulates what you have in mind. Both cartridges are available, but I suspect 45-75, like 50-95 ammunition will be pricey.

I believe Uberti currently manufactures reproduction Winchester Centennial Model rifles and, I believe Cimarron Firearms imports at least one version.

Hope this helps.

Come to think of it, has anyone played with the .45-75 in a platform other than the Winchester 76 and its modern clones?

I dunno.

but I do remember the 45-70 being chopped down and the barrels set-back on some Marlins for some of the guys in the ohio to deer hunt with.
AIRC they were using 1.8" long cases to meet the regulations up there.

DPCD is correct.

A 450 Alaskan will do all that you wish and then some-
the Model 71 Winchester tends to be a better platform than others
for wildcats on the 348 case. Harold Johnson proved that in the early 50s. If that is not quite enough,
try PO Ackley's 450-348 but you will have to strengthen your rifle. Parker Ackley favored the 450 Alaskan and B. Fuller's version as they were reliable and did not require as much action work-
to handle the case.

I have both versions in pre-war M-71s. They will get your attention in 7.5 LB rifles. Better than the 45-90 and stronger case. Read up on PO
Ackley's Vol. I Handbook. Its all there.

quote:

Better than the 45-90 and stronger case.

450 Fuller,
Can you please explain to me in what ways the 450 Alaskan is better than the modern Miroku/Winchester .45-90?
I have never seen or fired a .450 Alaskan, but I have heard good reports on its performance on the largest of bears.

I do know that my .45-90 (.458 2.4 ) has performed well on game from Blackbuck to elephant, bison, Cape Buffalo, leopard, etc with my favorite 450 grain Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps.

Ive had two original 45-90s in 86 Win. and my favorite load in both was the 350 hornady RN. I shot some 400 gr. bullets and both guns handle them extremely well...The only way you can make that determination is to shoot them at 100 yards for group...I much preferred the 45-90 win 86 to the 45-70 or the 45s on the 348 case..The 45-90s always seemed to me to shoot better than any other lever action, by chance or not thats the way I feel about them...NOt only were they suitable on elk and deer and a couple of bison, but both of them won me a lot of turkeys, hams, and becon..

A bit shorter and fatter?
Perhpas my ex girl friend?
Seriously, how about the .50-95 WCF?

Cal

450 Marlin. Mine is a left hand Win Model 70