I'm curious, what are the maximum loads you have come up with in terms of bullet weight and velocity?

I have heard that it is possible to get a modern 45-70 to safely shoot loads that are equivalent to African DG loads.

Has anyone ever got a 400 gr bullet to hit 2200 fps in their 45-70?

Just wondering.

BH63

Depends on which brand and model rifle you have.
My Miroku/Winchester .45-90 has already pushed a 450 grain Kodiak to 2150 fps and taken DG with it.
Since I had a .45-90 (.45 2.4) there was no need to work on top .45 2.1 loads, but be assured someone has.
Here is a link to loads for the .45-90 Express.
You could use this load in an modern 1886.

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/45-90-Express/782

To say more could open up a "can of worms" discussion from folks and I do not wish to participate in any of the worn out discussions of rifle strength, best powders, primers, how to "push the pressure envelope", etc.

Good luck and I do hope you find a safe load that answers you original question.

PS I just remembered correspondence with two different 45-70 reloaders that may help. Back when we were prepping 45-90 ammo for bullet testing in Africa (PAC), these folks contributed and one was shooting 350 JSP at 2400+ and the other 300 grain JSP at nearly 2600 fps (45-90 can do 300 grain at 2600+). Another sent me pix of 45-70 loads with bullets loaded out for more powder capacity and he claimed to get 45-90 velocities. I will look over my loading files to try to locate this info.

In some modern 1886 rifles you can cycle shells with a 2.8" OAL. If you were able to source bullets that fit the throat and load to that length, then you have greater performance available - in fact similar to the levels CRS is achieving with his 45/90.

I'm not a fan of altering the factory throat and I have a couple of cast designs that fit the throat when crimped into the crimp groove and are up to 2.8" OAL.

CRS has some photos of mine and might put them up again. The pics and further discussion are in another 45/70 thread in this forum.

Thank you JFE!!! Good timing.
I spent a good amount of time looking for those PIX and now I can locate them.

I will also print the post and file in my new .45-70 binder.

Now that I have a .45-70 double, I must move all related information from 45-90 binder to new 45-70 binder.

JFE, HELP!
I have looked and can not find your post with pix. I do remember it and can almost visualize the pic but,,,

Can you help?

Here is the post with pics and further discussion.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/3331049832/p/2

For reader convenience:


Posting for JFE:



With careful bullet selection, in an 1886 rifle, the 45/70 can equal the 45/90 and, to my mind at least, provide greater flexibility.

Starting from the LHS

45/70 with cast 415gr HP GC
45/70 with Saeco No. 019 cast GC (478gr)
45/70 with Lyman 462560 GC (545gr)
45/70 (Hornady case) North Fork 450gr CPS
45/90 with RCBS 45-500 FNGC (520gr)
45/90 with Hornady 350gr FN

All the bullets in the 45/70 cases above have a diameter of approx. 0.450" ahead of the cannelure. They can be crimped into the cannelure for an OAL of approx. 2.8" or less. They fit a factory, no throat 45/70 chamber and cycle with ease through the 1886 action.

Great information! Thanks cr and jfe.

BH63

You're right, CS...but this is a question that will be asked continuously because the "asker's" hasn't bothered to do a search maybe because they are too lazy, don't know how or don't know WHERE to get an answer or maybe just lurking/wants to talk...

AND, because people still "want to turn/think they can turn" a 45-70 into a 458 WM by some magical wand waving/drum beating/dancing.

Besides the answer is contained in ALL the things you said...it won't take more than one or two rounds for any poser to "see the light" especially in a light levergun and very few even bother to talk a look at an actual ballistic table or free online energy calculator or forums relating to actual big game hunting with a 45-70...or they wouldn't be asking.

Narrowed down to it's basic question, it just wanting to communicate and participate...the actual answer is mostly way down the list of "what I want to know..."...OR NOT...who really knows for sure.

For those who know, they know...for those that don't, maybe a link or a wake-up call might save them from a mess of grief or start them down a different course.

Case capacity for a 45-90 is near 90 gr and for a 458 WM near 95+ and the 45-70 about 80 gr so why post that excellent information if the question was inconsequential and not worth answering because the only difference between the 45-90 and the 458 WM is in the pressure differential in various rifles while the 45-70 is in the case volume AND pressures in various rifles due to the need for reduced loads in OEM Trap-doors and Lever guns.

Besides you know how much can be manipulated on the reloading relm and what velos can be achieved with the 45-70 SAFELY depending on all the various factors, that no one in their right mind would publish for all the obvious reasons. I KNOW what I've done and the velos I've achieved in various receiver configurations and you SURE the heck can't find that online or in any reloading books.

Who knows what will jiggle BH63 into REALLY digging into his question to find that answer...BH63?????

Good Hunting

400gr at 2200 fps muzzle speed is no problem at all from my lever-actuated .45-70 Ruger No.1-S.

416,
Nice rifle!
Can you share load details?


Also, Please comment on the barrel fixture that provides the sling swivel connection.

I tried the two part Uncle Mikes swivel on the barrels of a couple of my heavy rifles and it always worked loose in the field (and not needed at the range),
Thanks.

Inspired by Speer #11 .45-70 Ruger No.1 load data. Their test rifle is an earlier edition that have longer throats than the newer editions. I got the throat lengthened in mine a wee bit more. Re7 and A2015 work well for me. I can safely get 2600 fps muzzle speed with a 300gr TSX.

Sling details as shown. It's just an SKS carbine sling of Chinese origin fitted with Sako 85 stainless swivels. Works just fine.

In my Ruger#1s best velocity and accuracy came with VVN 133.The loads are from their loading manual.Those loads are not for girly men.OB

Speer .45-70 Marlin load data is limited to 28,000 cup. About 1800 fps with a 400gr jacketed bullet and an appropriate powder is near maximum for my GBL (18.5" barrel) as the manual load data indicates. The rear locking Marlin lever action isn't particularly rigid.

The weak part of the 1895 Marlin system is not the locking block. It is primarily the barrel threads followed by the threads of the action where the barrel screws in. The .45-70 1895 and .30-30 336 are built on the same action. But the 1895 version leaves very little thickness in the barrel threads after being chambered for the fat .45-70 cartridge. When these rifles are pushed beyond their pressure limit the barrels give way at the barrel threads and cause the action to break at the same area.



The same will happen if you push the 444 beyond safe limits.



Because Marlin failures can be so dangerous, reloaders should never attempt to get magnum performance out of a Marlin lever rifle. Amazingly, some people still walk that fine line and are eager to brag about the magnum velocities they achieve. That is, until they become one more case history.

The situation was the primary reason I developed the .405 Grenadier. It holds more powder than the .444, leaves significantly more barrel thickness at the chamber/barrel threads than the .45-70, and the bullets have higher sectional densities and BCs than the bullets commonly fired from the .444 or .45-70 versions of the Marlin. See -- http://forums.accuratereloadin...6521043/m/3401049761

Increasing case stretch as I work up toward maximum using the manual load data for my Marlin. I think I would see a case head separation before the barrel threads let go. A wrecked rifle / injured shooter either way.

Notice in the photo just above, the case head is intact. That is typical of these failures. Of course, a case head separation can occur, especially with stretched, over-worked brass. But new cases and cases in good condition (not overworked or stretched) will take significantly more pressure at the head than at the walls. Normally, that is not a concern because the case walls are supported by strong chamber walls. That's why case walls can and will be made thinner than the thickness of the case head and base. But, simply put, the chamber walls of the Marlin 1895 are not made as strong as those of most modern centerfire rifles. There is nothing wrong with the design. It just has it's pressure limits and doesn't do well when Bubba tries to reload for magnum velocities.

Could have been excessive cast bullet lead fouling as the failure cause not necessarily excessive load pressure. Pressure level developed would have been way past the level to induce a case head separation. I would think that in failure testing threaded pipe assemblies the joint would let go first before the pipe would rupture because of the loss in wall thickness due to the thread depth.

That is exactly it. When I spoke of chamber wall thickness it is, of course, thinnest where the threads are cut. Even Marlin recognizes this and when they came out with the .450 Marlin they changed the threads from a V-cut to a shallower square shape cut to leave as much thickness in the chamber walls at the bottom of those cuts as possible. When Marlins get sent to some of the gunsmiths specializing in rebarreling them to large bore wildcats they modify the action threads to accept their barrel threaded with shallow squared threads. They also recognize the weakness and do what they can to mitigate it. Nevertheless, shallow square cut barrel threads add a little to the margin of pressure safety but that area still remains the weak point for over-pressure and those barrels will still fail there if cartridges are over loaded or if other conditions exist that will drive pressure up - the leading situation you mentioned for example.

416
Thanks for the info.

Loved to see your 2600 fps with the 300 grain TSX.
That equals the 300 grain Nosler PP velocity in my 1886 .45-90! Problem was the PP is designed for max impact velocity of 2200 fps and at 2600 exploded on test media (dead goat hanging from tree). The 2200 fps proved deadly on plains game and leopard though.

Since we reached 2150 fps with 450 grain Kodiak, 2200 with 400 grain bullet should be within reach, but we have not tried that yet.


Ol Biker
VV N133 is one of my fave powders to achieve good velocity with less pressure. But don't tell anyone so the price will not go up.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
That is exactly it. When I spoke of chamber wall thickness it is, of course, thinnest where the threads are cut. Even Marlin recognizes this and when they came out with the .450 Marlin they changed the threads from a V-cut to a shallower square shape cut to leave as much thickness in the chamber walls at the bottom of those cuts as possible. When Marlins get sent to some of the gunsmiths specializing in rebarreling them to large bore wildcats they modify the action threads to accept their barrel threaded with shallow squared threads. They also recognize the weakness and do what they can to mitigate it. Nevertheless, shallow square cut barrel threads add a little to the margin of pressure safety but that area still remains the weak point for over-pressure and those barrels will still fail there if cartridges are over loaded or if other conditions exist that will drive pressure up - the leading situation you mentioned for example.

I've never been able to figure out why Marlin didn't incorporate the same modifications that the .450 action uses into the .45-70 chambered 1895?

Good results with the 300gr TSX at 2600 fps muzzle speed from my .45-70 Ruger No.1. Always good results with TSX bullets in heavier calibers.

I used this load in my No.1 to nail a huge 6x7 Bull Elk as it stood broadside about 150m away. Upon bullet impact that Elk hit the ground so hard it bounced. Anchored right there and then for good.

I can load the 300gr TSX in my Traditions Outfitter G2 break action rifle at about 2350 fps muzzle speed which is near maximum for that rifle. However my longer throated Ruger No.1 handles a heavier powder charge since the bullet can be seated out further. And the No.1 action is in a different class altogether strength-wise.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I'm curious, what are the maximum loads you have come up with in terms of bullet weight and velocity?

I have heard that it is possible to get a modern 45-70 to safely shoot loads that are equivalent to African DG loads.

Has anyone ever got a 400 gr bullet to hit 2200 fps in their 45-70?

Just wondering.

BH63

In a ruger #1 you could do it. Maybe in a modern 1886 Winchester, not in a marlin.

Standard hunting load in my Marlin GBL is the 400gr Barnes Buster at 1850 fps muzzle speed. Acceptable accuracy. Pressure is at about safe maximum level.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
That is exactly it. When I spoke of chamber wall thickness it is, of course, thinnest where the threads are cut. Even Marlin recognizes this and when they came out with the .450 Marlin they changed the threads from a V-cut to a shallower square shape cut to leave as much thickness in the chamber walls at the bottom of those cuts as possible. When Marlins get sent to some of the gunsmiths specializing in rebarreling them to large bore wildcats they modify the action threads to accept their barrel threaded with shallow squared threads. They also recognize the weakness and do what they can to mitigate it. Nevertheless, shallow square cut barrel threads add a little to the margin of pressure safety but that area still remains the weak point for over-pressure and those barrels will still fail there if cartridges are over loaded or if other conditions exist that will drive pressure up - the leading situation you mentioned for example.

I've never been able to figure out why Marlin didn't incorporate the same modifications that the .450 action uses into the .45-70 chambered 1895?

excellent question.

I decided to just order a .375 Ruger Mag guide gun. I am a whimp when it comes to blowing up rifles.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I decided to just order a .375 Ruger Mag guide gun. I am a whimp when it comes to blowing up rifles.

BH63

Pretty good idea, you also have the advantage of a rifle that you can shoot that does not have the trajectory of a thrown bowling ball.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I decided to just order a .375 Ruger Mag guide gun. I am a whimp when it comes to blowing up rifles.

BH63

People hot rod calibers all the time.

I real see no reason to when at least in the USA it is simple just to move to a different and more powerful caliber.

Want 458 performance buy a 458.

But each to there own.

Hot rodding a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 is not a good idea as some of the posted pictures have shown.

Generally, firearms are designed so that they will accept up to twice the maximum pressure for a cartridge. So a 450 Marlin will yield at about 87,000 psi (2X the 43,500 SAAMI spec). Of course you should never get near that, but if you inadvertantly load some 50,000 psi rounds you will probably get away with it.

The problem with the 45-70 is that there no standard that one can associate modern 45-70 rifles with. The SAAMI spec is 28,000 psi for modern guns. So 2X that is 56,000 psi. Since many heavy 45-70 loads are in the 40,000 psi range, you can see how hot rodding them can get you into the red zone. How did Marlin design their 45-70's? I've never seen anything written and I doubt anyone is going to volunteer the information.

If you are looking for max performance from an 1895 Marlin go with the 450 Marlin. Better yet, get a BLR in 450 Marlin or just go to a different setup.

Go on the Marlin owners forum and search for a post about the strengths and weaknesses of the 1895. It was written by Range Point Precision. He builds many custom Marlins and describes pretty well the in & outs of them.

quote:

Originally posted by sjmci:
Hot rodding a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 is not a good idea as some of the posted pictures have shown.

Generally, firearms are designed so that they will accept up to twice the maximum pressure for a cartridge. So a 450 Marlin will yield at about 87,000 psi (2X the 43,500 SAAMI spec). Of course you should never get near that, but if you inadvertantly load some 50,000 psi rounds you will probably get away with it.

The problem with the 45-70 is that there no standard that one can associate modern 45-70 rifles with. The SAAMI spec is 28,000 psi for modern guns. So 2X that is 56,000 psi. Since many heavy 45-70 loads are in the 40,000 psi range, you can see how hot rodding them can get you into the red zone. How did Marlin design their 45-70's? I've never seen anything written and I doubt anyone is going to volunteer the information.

If you are looking for max performance from an 1895 Marlin go with the 450 Marlin. Better yet, get a BLR in 450 Marlin or just go to a different setup.

The modern 45/70 is a reworked 336 (30-30. There is little meat between the mag tube and the barrel threads, thus the reason not to hot rod it. The 1886 winchester is a lot stronger action and it also has the benefit of being able to feed a longer cartridge. The factory Marlin is set up to feed 2.55 inches, they can be modified to feed to about 2.6, maybe a bit more with someone who really knows what they are doing. The 1886 Winchester can handle the 2.7 inch 45/90 or 50/110 from the factory.

I guess I copied the Marlin thread from the owners sight but can't find that I can attribute it to a particular thread from that sight. But I'm pretty sure it was written by the guy who owns Ranger Point Precision, enjoy.

MARLIN LIMITATIONS

These Marlin rifles have what I would deem a design flaw. Perhaps surprisingly, this is not the rear-locking lug. Rather, it is the relatively small diameter of the barrel threads. When chambering modern cartridges, that work at modern pressures, having a case body diameter larger than about 0.47-inch (Mauser and 30-06 related chamberings, an interesting historical accident!) the weakest portion of these barreled-actions is the chamber, under the barrel threads.
Unfortunately, due to close proximity of the magazine port under the barrel, it is not particularly feasible to enlarge these threads. This is too bad, had John Marlin simply moved the magazine tube and loading port 0.050-inch farther below the barrel he could have enlarged the barrel threads by 0.1-inch and eliminated this weakness. The subsequent design would have worked perfectly without any other significant changes! And this does matter; early Marlins, with softer barrel steel, are prone to chamber swelling. Modern guns avoid this fate only because the steel used in the barrels has significantly increased tensile strength.
My solution to this weakness is to modify the Marlin thread, so that the thinnest portion of the chamber wall under the threads is as thick as is feasible without significantly weakening the receiver. To do this, I use a custom tool set built to my specifications by custom reamer maker Dave Manson. My friend, Ben Forkin (Forkin Custom Classics) originally persuaded Manson to make such a tool set. These tools reduce height of the unnecessarily tall square thread and true the factory cuts so that one can install a barrel with precisely fitting threads.
The improvement is significant. With a properly fitted barrel, thinnest portion of the chamber wall is about 0.035 inch thicker. This may not sound like much until one considers that, for example, in the factory 45-70 Marlin the thinnest portion of the chamber is only 0.100-inch thick! Moreover, with precise threads in the receiver, the gunsmith can fit the barrel threads so closely that the receiver can share the load. While such a design is not ideal (most manufacturers would prefer not to rely on the hoop strength of the receiver to support he chamber), it is the best that we can do with the standard Marlin.
The next weakness is the two-piece stock. With only the conventional tang bolt attachment, any such stock is prone to failure. Considering the limited amount of wood reaching forward of the tangs and the stresses associated with side loading, we are not surprised to see longitudinal cracks reaching rearward of the tangs in older, well-used guns.
The other problem with the two-piece stock is that this system makes it impossible to isolate the barreled action from the bench and associated variations in shooter hold, etc. Firing good groups with any such gun is an exercise in patience and in paying attention to details that even many serious benchrest shooters may have not even considered.
After years of serious testing, I have concluded that how the shooter holds his tongue probably matters! For sure, how solidly the shooter holds the gun and presses his cheek against the stock will significantly alter zero. In a related characteristic indicative of just how significantly these guns interact with shooter and bench, on a good day, I can call high and low hits when testing a Marlin 45-70 and I can do so without looking at the target – all I have to do is look at the chronograph! If shot velocity is slower than mean velocity the bullet will hit low; if shot velocity is faster than mean velocity, the bullet will hit high.
I mitigate these problems by installing a throughbolt that runs from near the rear of the buttstock to a hanger that I install on a replacement, hardened-steel tang bolt. With proper glass bedding, this modification allows me to significantly compress the wood of the stock along the grain (with about 1000 pounds force). Such compression monumentally reduces potential for lateral loading to result in a crack in the stock. It also allows me to bring 100% of this force to bear on the front flats of the stock, where it should be, so that buttstock and receiver are bonded in both the vertical and the lateral plane, to the extent possible. Finally, because the tightened throughbolt bends and stretches the tang bolt it automatically clamps the rear of the tangs onto the corresponding flats in the stock, which further improves vertical rigidity.
I owe this idea to my friend Steve Meacham, who uses a more elegant version in his excellent reproduction 1885 Winchester rifles. In those rifles, with the right chambering and best loads, I have proven consistent varminting accuracy with the 225 Winchester consistently producing groups in the 2s. This would simply not be possible if buttstock and receiver were not so well bonded.
Another problem with any such rifle is the tubular magazine and foreend that must necessarily hang from the barrel in some manner. On two-piece stocked guns without a tubular magazine, it is feasible to hang the foreend independently, using a separate receiver protrusion. In an effort to improve accuracy, practically every manufacturer who has ever made such a gun has tried this approach. Almost invariably, such a design proves to be less accurate! The reason for this is the tuning fork effect. With such a design, inevitably, barrel and foreend will vibrate independently. These vibrations will just as inevitably reinforce each other.
The best solution I have found came to me from custom riflesmith Keith DeHart. It is high tech and involves one of those situations where we can say, if Browning had had it, he would have used it! This solution is to simply ensure that foreend and magazine tube do not touch the barrel anywhere other than where this is necessary and to then create a bed of RTV silicone between these pieces.
What the silicone does is to effectively kill vibrations while helping to isolate the barrel from variations in shooter hold and bag placement. Along with proper buttstock bedding and the throughbolt, the accuracy improvement for bench shooting is impressive. This difference is not so much a matter of what the gun may occasionally do, but what it will repeatedly do. For example, I expect a modified Marlin to shoot three-shot groups under one-inch using any decent modern ammunition. With several rifles, I have seen five-shot groups approaching the one-half MOA benchmark, which is rather impressive, considering the accuracy limitations of the hunting bullets involved in these tests.
An obvious limitation to each Marlin design (long and short action alike) is maximum potential cartridge length and maximum potential cartridge diameter.

IMPROVED CHAMBERINGS

Now, to the heart of the matter, just exactly what is the limit for cartridge diameter and length in each of these basic Marlin designs? The short answer is provided in the following table.



Cartridge lengths indicated require significant albeit feasible action modifications. These alterations do not in any meaningful way weaken or compromise functionality of these actions. Furthermore, action manipulation force and finger lever travel are identical to stock Marlin rifles (assuming the same level of action smoothing).
Case designs suggested in the table just happen to represent all that is feasible to accomplish and, by quirk of fate, basic cases useful for each are now readily available from Starline (50 AE and 50/110 WCF). Maximum performance with each will occur when firing bullets of 0.510-inch diameter. However, in the short-action gun, reliability and smoothness of action manipulation will likely be compromised if we try to go to that bullet diameter, which will require a cylindrical case, rather than the slightly tapered case used with the 50 AE and 0.500-inch bullets.
A similar situation exists with the basic 50/110 case (which is slightly shortened and given a slight bottleneck for use in the Marlin as the 510 Kodiak Express); we could expand this case to cylindrical and thereby use bullets of about 0.525-inch diameter. However, even if such bullets were readily available, it would be difficult to achieve smooth action functioning. Hence, we are realistically limited to bullets of 0.510-inch diameter, which is convenient since such bullets are readily available.
Of course, chamberings based upon necked-down versions of each of these cases are feasible. In the short-action gun, we can envision potentially useful conversions with bullet diameters as small as 30-caliber. Bullets designed for the 30-30 will be useful in such a case and, by quirk of fate, cannelure placement and case length are perfect! For this reason alone I have just decided that my next Conversion Marlin will be a 30-caliber on the short action.
In the long-action gun, realistic bullet design limitations and the modest potential BCs that are available with any flat point bullet (as required for safe use in a tubular magazine) would argue against any chambering smaller than 35-caliber. Here, bullets designed for the 356 Winchester would be marginally useful – the caveat is a result of the potential velocity that this relatively large case could generate; very likely, existing bullets will not hold together on close-range impacts if launched with full-pressure loads from this chambering.
In the table below, we will assume that ideal jacketed or cast bullets, as applicable, could be obtained for each of these hypothetical chamberings. In some instances, this is a reasonable assumption; in others, it would require new bullets. In either case, the following table suggests limits of performance potential with the modern short- and long-action Marlin.



Notes: all loads in this table assume the existence of an ideal propellant and that loads are at or near the 50,000 psi pressure limit that will assure smooth extraction and safe use. Realistically, generally, actual performance of best loads should come reasonably close to these predictions. Lengths for some of the hypothetical cast bullets would vary, depending upon actual design and alloy and, therefore, potential velocity could vary by about +/- 50 fps for such loads. Performance comments for jacketed bullets are based upon intended design velocity and may or may not reflect reality (history has demonstrated that just because the bullet was supposedly designed for a given muzzle velocity does not mean that it will perform properly when launched at that velocity!).

CONCLUSIONS

As I have safe loads that generate 4000 foot pounds of muzzle energy in my modified 45-70 Marlin, the predictions for the long-action gun do not surprise me. Similarly, as we have already built short-action guns in 475 Linebaugh and 50 AE, we know that performance potential is significant – for example, in the original 16-inch barreled conversion 475, factory loads launch the 420-grain cast bullet at about 1650 fps and thereby generate 2540 foot pounds of muzzle energy, so it is not hard to imagine that the longer load in the larger bottlenecked 50 AE case would reach the performance levels indicated. What surprised me was the discovery that loads in properly necked down 50 AE cases will significantly surpass factory 30-30 and 35 Remington ballistics, respectively.
So, what is possible with the modern Marlin rifle? Certainly far more than Mr. Marlin could have dreamed. As to accuracy and dependability, likely far more than most shooters would ever expect. As to performance potential, with the right loads in the right factory and wildcat chamberings, these guns are suitable for practically any application, worldwide.
Note, in the above text and in the picture captions, I have used monikers that may require a bit of explaining. First is the KE abbreviation, this stands for Kodiak Express but it is reminiscent of Kinetic Energy, which is no accident. Basically, I have chosen to dub any necked-down version of the 510 KE with a name reflecting bullet diameter (in thousandths of an inch) followed by the KE moniker.
Second, is M3 (pronounced M-cubed), this stands for McPherson Marlin Maximum. I probably would never have thought of this and probably would not have used it if I had thought of it. However, Dave Manson suggested it and, upon reflection, if it is good enough for him, it is good enough for me. It certainly captures the essence of the matter, for each given bore size, these designs produce all the performance possible in the short-action Marlin.
Names applied in the picture caption generally reflect caliber followed by M-cubed but exceptions exist. The 44 is actually a 42- or 43-caliber gun – depending upon how one defines caliber – but can you imagine a 43 Magnum! Or a 43 anything for that matter, just does not roll off the tongue; I used 475 for the same – how does it sound – reason; since 45 would lead to confusion over correct bullet diameter, I used 458 for the 45-caliber version).
I do occasionally do a bit of gunsmithing on Marlin rifles. Those interested are hereby invited to visit my web site: levergun.com.

A note on the photographs: Other than the 44 M3, which uses the standard 440 Cor-Bon case, the bottlenecked designs depicted in the following pictures are mock-ups made with tools at hand. In some, shoulder angle matches what I would probably use in the actual design (30-degrees); in others, it does not. Neck lengths are approximately correct – all such designs are intended to have a case neck with an outside length that is about two-thirds of groove diameter.
Body taper on all mocked-up cases is exaggerated. On M3 examples, I would eliminate the modest taper from the 50 AE case. Similarly, in the KE designs, I would use the same taper as the 510 KE, which is about one-half that of the 50/110 WCF case (used to make these mock-ups) – the tiny bottleneck on the 510 KE is included to prevent chambering in a 50/110 chambered gun.


Forkin Custom Classics
P.O. Box 444
205 10th Avenue SW
White Sulfur Springs, MT 59645
Telephone: 406-547-2344 Meacham Tool & Hardware Inc.
1070 Angel Ridge Road
Peck, ID 83545
Telephone: 208-486-7171
smeacham@clearwater.net Dave Manson
Lune Lake Precision
8200 Embury Road
Grand Blanc, MI 48439
Telephone: 810-953-0732 Buffalo Arms Company
99 Raven Ridge
Sandpoint, ID 83864
Telephone: 208-263-6953
(Redrawn Cases)

I'm fairly sure that article was written by Mic Mc Pherson.

In case anyone is still confused by the

quote:

–

in the Forkin story as I was, I think it is a long rule or dash, like --- joined together.

For years the 45-70 has become famous over the "Mestic rule". and its claimed ballistics and killing effect is created mostly by those who have never used it on large animals like elk or whatever, or have reloaded it properly. and properly is trying not to make a silk purse out of sows ear.

If one wants to create a magnum out of a 45-70, the only way IMO is to rechamber it to a 45-90, if that isn't satisfactory go to a 45-110 or 120, even a 50-120 or 140..Its also the cheapest way and the easy way..IMO...

If one is determined to improve the 45-70 then I see CRShelton offered the best advise I can think off, but at what expense and trouble, not sure..nor inclined.

Another option to a lesser extent is shoot a Ruger no. 1 45-70 and load er up. I found that not acceptable for myself, and loaded with Nosler Partition it proved to be a miserable elk killer, I filmed those kills for some hunters who booked on a huge high fenced ranch. The 45-70 (ranch owners Ruger no. 1)proved slow killers with long tracking jobs with good hits, most required a finishing shot or two..It was a factor in my opinion of the caliber..Early on my use of the 45-90 was somewhat better, but I still wasn't satisfied when comparing it to my 30-06, 9.3x62 or .338 win, wherein there is a world of diference..Most amazing was the 30-30 seemed to kill better than the 45-70, I was surprised at that???

However, like bow hunting, muzzle loading hunts, and pistol hunting, its a legal option and up to the individual and Ive done that and I wouldn't want to change that. Its guaranteed in the constition, but I don't necessarily agree with some of it and Ive been as guilty of it as the next guy, no doubt about that.

The 45-70 has its own case limitations, with a Ruger No. 1 a good idea for those wishing to push the cartridge to 45-90 territory. The Marlin levers are just not strong enough to push beyond 1900 FPS
with 400 gr bullets-for regularly digested handloads.

If one must push the lever envelope get a 45-90 in a newer
1886 or Winchester/Browning M-71 or better yet a 450 Alaskan with strong 348 Winchester brass.
I have two pre-war M-71s in 450 Fuller and Alaskan and they will reach 2200 FPS without turning the rifle into an IED or grenade.

Actually the 348 Ackley Improved in a M-71 has pounded moose for me better than any 30-06.Using Woodleigh , Swift, or Hawk bullets. The 338 Win, 338-06 and 35 Whelen do the business.
If you use one of the Marlin rifles, try to get at least a 22 in barrel, and use premium bullets
like Barnes or Alaska Bullet Works bonded core.
Velocity is not the only answer.
You have to put a good bullet in the boiler room or ignition switch to stop Mr. Grizz for example.

You only get so many mistakes, and a big bear will hand it back to you if your rifle jams or decides to quit on the job.

Remington .458 405gr FNSP bullet recovered from Bull Moose. About 1600 fps impact speed. More expansion less penetration. Next time will try the 400gr Barnes Buster which should go clear through. Less expansion more penetration through thick hide and heavy bone.

Thanks for the good pix of the Rem bullets from the moose. They did expand, but must have killed the moose.
Looking forwards to pix of the Barnes from a moose kill, Or, just a pic of the exit wound if the fully penetrate.

Bull Moose was dispatched instantly with the 1 Remington 405gr FNSP.

Likely similar results with the Speer 400gr FNSP. Speer advises against using this bullet on big Bear because it won't penetrate enough. The 400gr Barnes Buster should work well if the shot taken isn't too far.

Hunting with the slick handling .45-70 Marlin is a challenging close range proposition anyhow. That's why I like my GBL.

I see these big bore levetr guns as short range rifles, as did our forefathers..and most posts stipulate they are short range killers, and under those circumstances they are that, but hey Ive shot elk and seen Moose shot with the 30-30 and with a 170 gr. corelokt and it kills both on the spot for all practicle purposes, they may make 50 yards but Moose with any gun will make 50 or more yards as a rule, they only die when they decide to..If I were t hunt where 50 and 100 yard shots were the norm, I would only use a 30-30, no need for more..

But today you can get long shots and short shots almost anywhere you hunt..It not unusual to see a bull most at 400 or more yards or at 25 yards anyplace in todays world..