Decided it was time to get a lever action, have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 on the way. First lever gun, complete newbie to levers... My Dad had an old Savage 340 bolt rifle, to the best of my knowledge nothing but 170 grain bullets went through it. Got some of those on the way, Sierras, figured I,d try the Privi brass..
Part of the appeal of the 30-30 as opposed to a 45-70, was the thought that I could make some nice light loads that Ma Bear would enjoy shooting. She did not dig the 9.3...
So I,m lookin for info, recommendations, 130 grain Speer flat point? 125 grain Sierra flat nose?
My natural inclination for hunting is 170 grain flat nose, but, we have blacktail deer around here. Probably 150, maybe up to 200 lbs. So I,m wondering about the 125-130 grain bullets for deer?.. Smaller deer.
Like the looks of the 125 grain Sierra for the plinkin, practice, maybe hunting idea, but have some concerns about availability of that bullet.
Anyhoo, probly enough ramblin on my part.
Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions?

Muttly

A few weeks ago I did some load data on the new .308 100 gr ESP Raptor from Cutting Edge Bullets. The 100 gr bullet is designed with the 30/30 in mind, although it works extremely well in other .308 caliber rifles. While I have several 30/30s, my test rifle is a Win 94 Legendary Lawman 16 inch barrel. I love these little guns!

Now, while you mention light bullets, 100 is light, however the 100 ESP Raptor does not know that it is light for caliber, and out performs any conventional bullet available in .308 caliber in 30/30. Terminals are incredible for a bullet of it's class. In turn, the Raptor may be loaded as a solid as well! ESP stands for Enhanced System Projectile, and enhanced it is.










Yes, you see the data correct, I was able to get over 3000 fps with this bullet in a 16 inch 30/30 Winchester M94. Obviously you do not have to run it that fast, and I got EXCELLENT results and accuracy at any velocity I ran it to from 2200 to 3000 fps. Terminals are very good even at the lower velocities.

This bullet will turn your old 30/30s into a completely other animal--it won't be the 30/30 that you grew up with, it will be something entirely different! How does one enhance any cartridge? Bullet Performance, it's all about the bullet!

Michael

I had loaded up some 110gr Barnes TAC bullets for my brothers niece this last fall. She also was shooting my "youth" model Savage 340. She took a very nice 10point with it, well over 200lbs.

Do you have any clue as to the MAP you're hitting when driving that bullet that fast?

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Do you have any clue as to the MAP you're hitting when driving that bullet that fast?

MAP? OK, I am biting, new term, explain MAP?

Michael

Michael, I think MAP has something to do with pressure. Mass Average Pressure?

Folks this bullet develops no where near the kind of pressures one would expect from conventional bullets. It is a bore rider design and has 3-4 driving bands. The bands are the only contact surface(bearing surface). This is why extreme velocities can be achieved with no harm to the firearm or the shooter. Maybe Michael will elaborate.

Mass Average Pressure! OK, thanks drewhenry!

You are correct, because of the limited bearing surface any Raptor, or BBW#13 produces less pressure, more velocity for the same buck! While I have not run pressure data on the 30/30s, I have run pressure data on many 1000s of rounds of other cartridges/calibers with the BBW#13s and larger bore Raptors, including barrel strain work in double rifles. In every case because of the lower bearing surface of the bands, and being brass as well, one would get from 100 to 200 fps more velocity that a similar weight normal conventional, and 5000-7500 PSI less pressure.

This test conducted above was one rifle, and I have not taken it further. At this velocity I felt like it was getting very close to top end, dropping a grain down still gave 2950 fps, and would never run into issues even changing rifles from one to the other. There were no lockups, or any other signs of pressures.

And dia, this ain't my first rodeo either.

Hopefully your day is as good as mine!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Do you have any clue as to the MAP you're hitting when driving that bullet that fast?

MAP? OK, I am biting, new term, explain MAP?

Michael

Maximum Average Pressure. It is a measurement of the absolute peak pressure averaged over a statistical sample of rounds.

Anyways, the reason I asked is because those velocities come at a cost - very high pressure. The 30-30 is 42Kpsi. Unless somebody is very crafty with the powder used, pushing a 100gr pill long over 3000fps is going to exceed 42Kpsi by a lot.

Anytime you market ammo, pressure testing is one of the first things you do before advertising.

dia

I was not familiar with the term. I actually do pressure work here. Alas, I have not run pressures on these loads in 30/30, but rest assured I have done enough work in this area to understand when too much is too much. Although I experienced zero issues with the load at 3000 fps, everyday use I would drop by one grain or maybe two. It would still be at 2900 fps + and be of little consequence.











Fact of point, I have done pressure data on my entire line of cartridges, with 1000s of different loads and bullets. I have even done barrel strain data for double rifles, you know, where you actually measure the amount of barrel strain put on a barrel as the bullet passes that point.





Oh, and I am not in the "Marketing Ammo" business, I have no ammo to sell anyone, also not in the bullet business. Fact is, I am a Forester by profession. I am advertising nothing. And have nothing to sell you.

But, anyway regardless thereof, you have an, "OK" day as well!

Michael

The problem with CEB's is they are very expensive, the OP just wants a light bullet for deer and within range, say 150yds the sierra should do just fine, put the bullet in the boiler room and the deer is yours.....

How many deer can you kill with a box of bullets?
Twenty bullets for load work and sighting in and then it's all gravy. They are hunting not plinking bullets. Almost any bullet will work on deer though but it's about wanting the best bullet for the job then CEB Raptors might be for you.

Boom stick

Exactly, you said it, "almost any bullet will work on deer" especially with the limited velocities of a 30-30, super penetrators are not needed. CEB's are a lot of money to spend on a 30-30 load when the Sierra will do a great job. Im not adverse to using stuff like Barnes TTSX or GMX's when the game needs em. I spend more than 10 dollars a piece for broad heads so when the situation calls for it, then you spend. 30-30 light loads? 100gr solid brass bullet?????? Hey what ever makes ya sleep better.....

I've shot many black tails and mule deer (Oregon) with the 30-30. While most have been with cast bullets I shot a few with Paco Kelly loads in 20" carbines and 24" rifles.

The 125 gr Sierra is quite accurate and a very good varmint bullet at 30-30 velocitites upwards of 2750 fps out of the 30-30. It is very explosive and I will not use it on deer. However, the Speer 130 gr bullet is of heavier construction and is made for deer (Hot Core) shooting. I push it to 2650 fps and it is an excellent 30-30 bullet in leverguns.

Larry Gibson

I would use Sierra's 125gr spitzer bullets, loading one in the chamber and one in the magazine for a total of two shots. Sierra recommends the 125gr spitzer for deer at .30-30 velocities. It also has a decent ballistic coefficient of .277, as opposed to .153 for the flat nosed 125gr. I used to shoot this bullet a lot in a Winchester model 94 I owned and it consistently shot very small groups. I've recommended this bullet for use in a .30-30 for several years and those who tried it have always liked it.

Carrying the rifle loaded with just two pointed cartridges will prevent any problems in the magazine and is far outweighed by the gains you will get using the 125gr Sierra spitzer.

Sierra 125gr flat nose bullet recommended for use in .30-30 at 2200-2600fps.

Sierra 125gr spitzer bullet recommended for small to medium game at 2700-3600fps and for deer at .30-30 velocities of 2200-2600fps.

Thank you gentlemen, appreciate the replies! Finally got some time off, lookin around, notice I,ve got a small pile of brass, bullets, and whatnot for the 30-30 and the 500 Smith...
I picked up a 336C early this summer, and it,s a sweet little gun. Nice wood, pretty smooth, brings out the little kid in me, takes some...restraint to take a little time between shots, try not to get the barrel too hot.
Don,t see a 500 Smith anywhere, will hafte rectify that situation shortly. And, as a bonus, in a weird convoluted way, a nice stockpile of .50 cal bullets should open the door a wee bit towards loading for a 50 B&M Alaskan, probably easier to sneak another lever action with a slightly bigger barrel past Ma Bear than a 505 Gibbs...
Anyhoo, too much work, maybe not enough sleep, last couple a months. Seems I,ve got the attention span of a cocker spaniel.
Back to 30-30, at the time I picked up the gun, was quite curious about the Sierra 125s, they seemed to be in the unobtanium category anywhere I looked. Rounded up some 170 Sierra,s, and 130 Speer. Grabbed a jug of Unique and some 100 grain roundnose bullets, still have,nt put any of those super softys together. Picked up some 322 and win 748 for powder, have,nt tried the 322 yet, but put together some starting loads with the 130 gr Speer FPs and 748, what a hoot!!! The Missus enjoys shooting the gun with that load, which was at least half of what I was looking for in a light load. Will probably fool around with the 100 grain bullets and Unique, might not be a bad way to let the grandkids get started on a centerfire...
For a hunting load, think a little more speed would probably be in order, hopin I can get an accurate higher end load with the 130s and 322...
Don,t want to put a scope on this one, would like to put a Skinner peep rear sight on, keep thinking a red fiber optic front would show up a little better for my Mr. McGoo eyes. And I,m throwin that part out as a question, anybody here using a fiber optic front sight with peeps? If so, does it work, work well, or better off with a regular post front sight?

If you go to the CEB website you can see what a 130 grain ESP raptor did to a variety of tough large African PG. This video shows a gemsbok hit going through both shoulders with a 2550 impact velocity. I'd want to seat deep using the tips with the one in the tube one in the chamber trick and I bet I could hunt big stuff out to moderate range. I'd use the tips and the 100 grains for deer with a 30-30.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...youtube_gdata_player

You mentioned light loads for Ma Bear. Years ago I bought some 110 grainers for my 30-06 and frankly the kick was very slightly less than the 150's I'd been using. I fully understand the idea behind a spitzer in the chamber and only one in the magazine, but in my opinion that is a very bad idea. One of those spitzers wind up where they don't belong. Sorta like having a pet rattlesnake.

quote:

and, as a bonus, in a weird convoluted way, a nice stockpile of .50 cal bullets should open the door a wee bit towards loading for a 50 B&M Alaskan,

Muttly

What sort of bullets do you have for the 50 B&M Alaskan? Have tested everything there is for that velocity range, and many in the 50 B&M AK. Also, we have developed some really good bullets that take the 50 B&M AK beyond it's original expectations. Layne Simpson loves his, and has done articles in Shooting Times, Rifle Shooter, and currently has a Cartridge review in Guns & Ammo about it. I have not yet seen the Guns & Ammo piece. Some of my favorite conventional bullets for the 50 are the 400 Sierra, good to around 2000 fps impacts, and the 500 gr Hornady, an excellent bullet, and extreme at 50 BMAK velocity at 1850 fps or so in 18 inches of barrel. Some of the new BBW#13s I have for it are also extreme and enhance the cartridge and rifle right into buffalo territory. There is a 450 gr North Fork Premium that we have for it also. Lot's of bullets in .500 that work very well.


The 100 gr Raptor was designed with the 30/30 in mind. Yes it is expensive, no you don't go plinking tin cans with it. It's a serious bullet for serious people doing serious things, not for for the cheap minded. Some monkey above mentioned spending $10 on some sort of arrow to throw sticks at something, and that was ok, but spending a $1 on a bullet to enhance the old 30/30 just was out of his league!

That is funny! This is not just another bullet, and they do not compare to a conventional bullet in performance. No conventional designed bullet will even come close to the devastation that a NonCon inflicts on animal tissue. This 100 gr Raptor, even if you slow it down to 2500 + fps will out perform any and all bullets, and the heaviest designed bullets for the ole 30/30. The trauma inflicted by this bullet will be something you have never seen before, and especially with your ole 30/30 thumper. Someone mentioned you don't need that sort of penetration for deer! True, but it's not about the penetration, penetration is an added bonus in this case, it's all about the trauma inflicted upon the shot. Nothing can walk away if you put it in the front end. While you are not likely to recover the remaining bullet, and probably even most of the blades will exit on a direct broadside shot on deer, you won't need the blood trail to follow up, as follow up is either where it stood, or within just a few yards of impact.

By all means, those that cannot think outside the box, use that $0.10 bullet and don't even bother reading this, it's a waste of your time. But if you want to enhance your success in the field, you might want to investigate this, spend a few moments looking at it and decide for yourself.

Michael

Slowly rounding up brass and bullets for a 500 S&W, don,t have any cast bullets for it yet. Montana Bullet Works and Beartooth have some cast that look interesting. For some reason, anytime I round up a new gun, its usually Hornady that goes down the barrel first.. Mostly lack of time with this little 30-30, grabbed a couple boxes of Rem 150 core-lokts.
Got a little stockpile of 350 Speers and 400 gr Sierra,s to try out in the 500. So far I like the looks of the Sierra,s..
First round with any sort of muzzle brake, guess I,ll have questions about shooting cast thru that once I get my hands on one...

Have,nt yet shot cast thru a rifle, get curious about it on occasion. May have a slight fear of leading, or some other malady...

Kinda feels like we,ve had a pet rattlesnake for the last four years, kinda hopin we can get rid of him in November. Been an expensive pet..

Muttly, please explain the pet rattlesnake. (Didn't think any snakes in Alaska lol). I think you'll do no better than those 150 grain Rem Core Lokts. Tell a story about a Marlin 336 (1949 year model). My dad got it in a barter deal--he was an electrician and did some work for it. It was like new. He had a Lyman peep sight installed on it and a recoil pad. The gunsmith that installed them ordered recoil pads from Pachmayr that had his name embossed on them. Perry Wright Gunsmith Wichita Falls Texas (This was before zip codes and two letter abbreviations for state). The gun was stolen out of my dad's pickup and over a year later ( I was a teen ager back then) I found it in a pawn shop. Would never have even noticed it on the shelf if it were not for the peep sight, recoil pad and military style harness leather sling. I now own the gun and I doubt 4 boxes have been fired through it. My dad moved up to a 30-06 (721 Remington) and used the 30-30 very little except for his first deer. I don't use it as I use bolt guns and will probably give it to a son in law.

Normally we don,t have a lot of snakes in Alaska, we had one come in for a brief visit via Air Force One couple years ago.. Guess I,m a little biased, not a big fan...

Shorter bullets don't handle bones well. You'd want to limit those to broadside lung shots with careful shot placement. I suggest 150gr hollow points for general use. Aim around the big bones on 150+ pound animals.

You may be surprised by the recoil characteristics of your .30/30. A light rifle with a hard butt and lots of drop in the stock hurts. I'd look at youth loads and a nice recoil pad.