Gents:

It’s been 20 years since I sold off my Winchester collection of express rifles (yes, I do miss them) and replaced them with double rifles. Being somewhat historical minded I am surprised at the number of folks who buy new production doubles when, for about the same money, a vintage English double could be had.

And, I’ve noticed the same with many rifles from Turnbull. No doubt he does good work but the price is so high I wonder why one would not get an original Winchester (or Colt, or whatever) for approximately the same money. When the day is over you have a beautiful rifle but it is still a re-worked, re-stocked, re-finished, re-barreled, re-etc., non-original rifle.

Please understand, no judgment here. I’m just curious, that’s all.
Cheers, all.
Cal

A a former Winchestercollector I too have wondered about this.
One can might say Turnbull has truly devoted his craftmanship upon the leveraction rifle to a point where I would say they actually surpas the originals in finish. I have never had a Turnbull rifle in my hand so my judgement is only based on internet pictures/homepages etc.

Regarding the originals of any american firearm I have wondered too why original finish means soo much. an example here:
I had an original Colt Lightning rifle in .44cal baby carbine. The gun had british proofmarks and the brits seems also to have added their own finish which was so much better than Colts. The gun was truly in a fantastic condition with sharp rifling and woodvarnish second to none. I tried to sell it, but no collectors wanted it because the finish wasn´t original. I mean..99,9999% of the gun was there and it is a very rare gun. Champlin Firearms of Oklahoma ended up taking it for $700 in a swapp.

Today I not a queer collector and if I find a rare gun that is attractive I can live with the .000000001% isn´t original.

Back to Turnbull. I have wondered too isn´t their any other gunmaker in America that can do a Winchester?. In a land where there are so many "leverguys" there should be room for more than one gunmaker who could do a nice Winchester?.Nothing to say on Turnbull at all, but it is his nice Winchesters that keeps popping up everytime someone speaks about "Winchester". Many years ago I read an artical about a guy who had a .50ex restored by Griffin & Howe.

For me, when I get enough to afford one, you can get what you want. Not what's availible.
Also Doug uses modern steel and produces the finishes of yesteryear.
Not to mention you can hunt a Turnbull rifle and not be afraid of "collector" value.
Just my $.03 worth of thought.

As many have done, had Turnbull do various refinish/CHH work over the years and first class work all the way. As for his restored Winchesters and other firearms the way I see it is that he can deliver a refurbished/embelished rifle that equals or exceeds some of the top line models done century ago that is often seen in the hands of celebrities, heroes, famous folks of yesteryear.

I ask, why not. I just took delivery of my first and hopefully not my last Turnbull. Am very I pleased with my Turnbull? Absolutely. Could I have purchased an original Winchester for about the same cost? Yes. I would have been afraid to take it hunting and shoot modern loads in it. I plan to take the new rifle hunting and am already shooting modern loads in it...the 50-110 if you can call that modern. Turnbull did a great job. Fit and finish are excellent. Customer service is again great. Ordered what I wanted and got what I ordered. You won't be disappointed.

A lot of guys do like Original guns, in original unfinished conditions. Some are collectors, some are users.

I have shot and handled a few Turnbull rifles and handguns.

A Turnbull gun represents a firearm, that is as new, as if it was bought back in the day, and came out of the factories Custom shop, if they had one.

I've owned 5 original winchester, and two Browning model 71's along with two modern Winchester/Miroku 1886's. The modern guns are built to tighter tolerances, better materials, are generaly more accurate, and are just plain tougher guns than the originals. I think that having Doug Turbulls shop work their magic on these modern guns is worth every penny. I hope to have a couple of guns transformed by Doug someday. I'll never be a collector, but I like to hunt with beautifull toys.

When you are getting the best that has value.

Cal, the key phrase in your post is "no doubt he does good work". Unless I misread you you have not seen many and owned none. I've known Doug since he was a toddler in his Dad's gunshop. The work he does is just the best there is. As well as fondling close to a 100 of his restorations and new work, I own two L.C. Smiths and an 1876 Winchester he did for me. All were "gray guns" when sent in. Now they are probably better guns now than when they left the factory. That AR he just did is so over the top it's pure fun and would drive Feinstein to drink.
Buy one of anything from his shop, you'll be impressed.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Cal, the key phrase in your post is "no doubt he does good work". Unless I misread you you have not seen many and owned none. I've known Doug since he was a toddler in his Dad's gunshop. The work he does is just the best there is. As well as fondling close to a 100 of his restorations and new work, I own two L.C. Smiths and an 1876 Winchester he did for me. All were "gray guns" when sent in. Now they are probably better guns now than when they left the factory. That AR he just did is so over the top it's pure fun and would drive Feinstein to drink.
Buy one of anything from his shop, you'll be impressed.

"....and would drive Feinstein to drink."-Now thats funny stuff! Laugh my butt off

Cal, One reason that Doug has earned such a great name is that he is truly a talented and knowledgeable gunsmith. When I get back to the valley after the shows I will see if I can find time to bring my son's 475 Turnbull up your way so you can get some trigger time with it.
I'll throw in my 505 Gibbs and 450/400 Zoli and we can make a day of it.

I have 3, a marlin cowboy converted to 50 alaskan, a 92 winchester takedown deluxe in 44-40 and a winchester 86 with shotgun butt, 32 inch octogon barrel and case color finish in 50-110 Winchester.
I can buy his guns finished with the features I want generally for about $500 to $800 more than a japchester repro. (ie less than the cost of the gunsmithing work). With the high asking price of originals and the lack of pristine guns being available--- this is the only way to go.
no photos of the 86 yet-- its at my dealers waiting for pickup.

45-70:
You are partially correct. I've never owned a Turnbull but I've seen plenty at the conventions and other shows. As for "the work he does is the best there is" look at the photo above with the close up of the tang. The wood is proud at the front and a gape at the rear. The screws don't line up. It's passable work, but not "the best there is" by any stretch of the imagination.
Just my opinion, however. I'm used to seeing, owning, shooting, and hunting with fine English doubles. I sold all my US firearms years ago so I may be a bit out of the loop as what is "the best" by American standards today. My last half dozen deluxe and standard .50 express rifles showed far better fit than above.
Cal

Love to see photos as close up of your "last 1/2 dozen .50 express rifles." Also copies of the receipts to see what they cost.

While you may have "seen plenty", that a'int quite like owning them.

Winslow AK isn't really the epicenter of high quality cutom gun restoration in the USA ..... now is it ?

.45-70:
I live in Willow, not Winslow. There are no custom gun makers here but I don't understand your statement's equating to quality workmanship. In the 70s and 80s I collected Winchesters as did countless thousands and sold them when I moved on to fine English double rifles (not much interest in shotguns). You didn't reply to my statement of the photo of the tang. As to the cost of my rifles, all has been passed on to new owners. However, some of the rifles can be seen in mid-1990 issues of The Winchester Collector but but photos were printed in black and white. As to price, when I bought them they were priced high then (or so it seemed) but compared to today they were very inexpensive. The prices, however, can't compare to some of my English rifles in 8- and 4-bore as well as .577 or either of my .600s (or smaller calibers for that matter). Last of all, please explain the photo in your post.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Love to see photos as close up of your "last 1/2 dozen .50 express rifles." Also copies of the receipts to see what they cost.

While you may have "seen plenty", that a'int quite like owning them.

Winslow AK isn't really the epicenter of high quality cutom gun restoration in the USA ..... now is it ?

If your going to insult someone at least get there fucking home town straight... I think your full of shit and your Google fu is fair to good... Next thing you know you will be telling us Alaskans what to use to hunt bears... Your a real fucking tool... Cal Pappa I do apologize fir hi jacking but no one insults a fellow Alaskan!

323:
Thanks for your support. I will not get into a pissing contest with him as I've read his past posts and PM'd a few gents about Larry. His posts tell a great deal of him.
You're down the road only an hour. Let's visit sometime or come on up for a double rifle shoot at my log home. Many of my former Winchesters can be seen in the magazine I mentioned in my reply. I do hope Larry has copies.
Cheers, mate, and thanks for the support.
Cal

Cal & 323, next time you're in WY, give me a call. We can have a "cuppa" and compare notes.

The photo is part of my signature and is ONLY aimed at trolls. Obviously neither of you are a troll.

Sorry you don't like Doug's work as several gun companies have him do all their CCH work.
Next time you're in upstate NY, stop and see him. I'm sure he'd like to hear your critiqe of his work.

As no one insults an Alaskan (although I'm sure your state, as anywhere else, has its share of jerks) nobody insult Doug Turnbull for shoddy work as I know better.

BTW we have fewer people than you in a state that has a far higher percentage of inhabitable land.

I'm in the book, look forward to meeting you both.

Your doggy picture is repugnant & distateful,perhaps you should remove it!

Bill, I'm sorry. Folks often post pictures of dead animals insides to illustrate bullet performance and it seems to arouse no outrage. Blood, guts, torn open lungs and hearts and so on.

I have owned dogs for over 60 years and seeing one take a dump does not upset me in the least. It is a normal and natural function .... one can only hope a troll steps in it. (chuckle).

If you find it so offensive, PERHAPS you should just add me to your ignore list and avoid the upset ?

Have a nice MLK day!

Request granted,you made my list,you can stand tall & proud now

Cal, while I will admit that Doug does make guns and rifles that are less than English Best - he also does great restoration work on them as well.

45-70 and 458:
Perhaps the meaning of my original post was lost or misunderstood. When I wrote that Doug "no doubt does good work" I was in agreement with the quality of his work. My question was why do folks spend lots of money on a reworked rifle rather than buy an original. That's all.

My later post was when I looked at the photos above. The wood to metal fit on the one example is really not that good. But that is the only one I was referring to. Again, no disrespect or critical words to the work Doug does.

Now, 45-70, as to your comments that I took to question the rifles I've owned in the past (.50 EX). They are long gone, but about 15-17 years ago I wrote 12 articles for The Winchester Collector and you can see some of the rifles there. And, while I don't feel I have to prove myself to anyone, if you'd like, PM me your address and I will be pleased to send you photo copies. If I need to show you my current crop of English doubles in the larger calibers you can check out my website and you will see 8s, 4s, and .600s,
Last of all, thanks for not including me in your group of trolls.
Anything else I can do? I hope I cleared up what I was originally posting.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. When I saw the keystone, I though you may be from Pennsylvania.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
45-70:
You are partially correct. I've never owned a Turnbull but I've seen plenty at the conventions and other shows. As for "the work he does is the best there is" look at the photo above with the close up of the tang. The wood is proud at the front and a gape at the rear. The screws don't line up. It's passable work, but not "the best there is" by any stretch of the imagination.
Just my opinion, however. I'm used to seeing, owning, shooting, and hunting with fine English doubles. I sold all my US firearms years ago so I may be a bit out of the loop as what is "the best" by American standards today. My last half dozen deluxe and standard .50 express rifles showed far better fit than above.
Cal

You are correct that the stock fit there could be better. This is one of the USRA conversions by Turnbull, not a fully restored gun. The specifications called for removal of the tang safety, single piece firing pin, refinish the wood with winchester colored stain and case finish the gun. If I remember correctly, The base guns were selling at Davidson's for $1200. and I bought this one completed for $1600. I felt that $400 for the work they did was a more than fair price. I'm not unhappy with the less than perfect fit. I shoot it in cowboy action shooting every weekend with black powder loads. That fit is the way it came from USRA. If I had been unhappy with it, I can assure you they would have fixed it.
The fore end on the Marlin would be more an example of the fit you get when they manufacture a gun. That gun needed a new barrel and new fore end because the Marlin cowboy barrel had dovetails cut too deep for a 510. diameter. The fit is much better there.
As I am out of the USA until march -- I can't yet post the 1886 in 50-110. it still at my dealers. Again, this will be a Turnbull manufactured gun (32 inch octogon barrel on this one) so I think the fit will be perfect.
If you are buying antique British Doubles, my guess is the workmanship is perfect. But then in those days the guys that had the skills to do that type of precision work were building guns, today they are probably doing eye surgery.

From a German homepage:

http://www.theduke.de/shop_de/...take-down_92050_1427

Had that thing been a .50ex I would have given that rifle an x-tra thought of buying it.

€7900 = $US 10500(Aprox). I have no idea if that is a good price or just very average?. But nice rifle it is.. It comes with dies(.475TB) 50pcs of brass + 200 bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Request granted,you made my list,you can stand tall & proud now

Bill, you do as you see fit. Someday, you may wish to know, "the rest of the story".

Thanks.

Buckeye:
Thanks for the update. You do have some nice rifles.

45-70, I have read many of your posts and find your personality somewhat...well... errrr... interesting. If Bill73 does not reply, I would be interested in "the rest of the story." Just curious, that's all.
It is interesting to see what makes folks tick here on AR. Years ago I read of a gent who was a meat hunter and shot almost 30 350-point elk in the back country searching for his meat animals. Of course no photos or proof, and it was interesting to read of it, replies to his posts, and see yet another mind-set. I forget the gent's name but he came out looking really bad.
Cheers, all,
Cal

Cal, PM inbound. thanks !

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
45-70, I have read many of your posts and find your personality somewhat...well... errrr... interesting. If Bill73 does not reply, I would be interested in "the rest of the story." Just curious, that's all.

"The rest of the story"...

All one would need to do is look up previous posts by Larry Root / "45-70shooter" over on 24hourcampfire. Most of his numerous accounts have been merged (and banned) into his "oldman1942" and "Bosslady" (pretended to be his wife Karen for awhile...) screen names.

Here is why I like Turnbull and what he does.
I've always wanted a new Colt SAA but found their price was just a little to much for my budget.
I was not looking for a old gray Colt, but something that new and a good shooter.
I found a 125th Anniversary SAA that was shot very little but handled a lot. This was Colts first attempt at a commemorative and I think they did a great job in fit, finish and machining. The dark blue and gold plating finish was warn and it had some small rust pitting on the loading gate.
It sat in the LGS a long time as nobody wanted it. I picked it up for just about nothing and sent it off to Turnbull to have it redone to look like a brand new 2nd generation SAA.
It came back as new, inside and out and for a price lower than I could have purchase a new one.
I could not be happier with how it looks and shoots. Turnbull made a silk purse out of a sows ear.
It's my understand that Trunbull now does all of Colts CCH and you can see why.

[IMG]
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...ch/SAAColt.jpg[/IMG]

Cal,
I know I have gone through stages in my gun use, collecting and useing. I am now at a point I would much rather have and hunt with a classic old winchester levergun then a Turnbull product. That is not said with any slight what-so-ever to a Turnbull gun, just the phase I'm in at this time in my gun life. Not sure if that makes sense to you or not!

Back40:
What you say makes perfect sense. I enjoy old stuff and originality and the history that goes with it. I thought I was the only one!
Cheers,
Cal

This here was my last Winchester I sold out from my collection.

I still have the old wooden oilpainted sign as a last remembrance of my Winchester years.
Today however I would actually love to have a modern 1886 done.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Buckeye:
Thanks for the update. You do have some nice rifles.

45-70, I have read many of your posts and find your personality somewhat...well... errrr... interesting. If Bill73 does not reply, I would be interested in "the rest of the story." Just curious, that's all.
It is interesting to see what makes folks tick here on AR. Years ago I read of a gent who was a meat hunter and shot almost 30 350-point elk in the back country searching for his meat animals. Of course no photos or proof, and it was interesting to read of it, replies to his posts, and see yet another mind-set. I forget the gent's name but he came out looking really bad.
Cheers, all,
Cal

Thanks Cal! I would really love to visit wonderful Alaska some day and see some of the nice British guns. I have little experience with them, but I know they are works of art!

Buckeye:
Email or ring me if you get up my way and stop by.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
This here was my last Winchester I sold out from my collection.

I still have the old wooden oilpainted sign as a last remembrance of my Winchester years.
Today however I would actually love to have a modern 1886 done.

Oh My Jens!!!! That Winchester Sign is FIRST CLASS all the way! I would LOVE to find one of those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW.........

Michael

Cal,

find me an original 50-110 with the optional 30" full octagon barrel and full magazine for less than twice what Doug wants to build me a new one will you?

My original M71 was a total rat, guess what it looked like ten years ago for $300. If I decide to have Doug convert mine to TD while it is at his shop for some work and color case hardening, I will still be in it for less than a decent standard model 86, let alone a TD 50-110.

Original 1886's are becoming too high priced to risk taking them hunting anymore.

I recently acquired a Turnbull USFA Single Action in 45 Colt.

This is one of the USFA revolvers Turnbull Manufacturing color cased, refinished and reworked.

I have been wanting a SAA revolver for over 30 years, actually more like 40 years. This revolver is no doubt the finest SA I have ever handled. Its fit and finish, and lockwork, trigger pull etc is equal to any FA revolver I have handled as well.

This Turnbull SA would feel right at home next to any really good Custom 1911.

I have been fighting the urge for a pair of the Turnbull open range single actions in 44-40 with engraving and upgraded grips that CDNN has on sale. Really, the big thing stopping me is I am not in the USA right now.

ok, made it back to the USA and picked up my latest Turnbull. This one is an 1886 with shotgun buttstock, 32 inch octogon barrell, case finish and chambered in 50-110 Winchester.
Cal, this is a Turnbull manufacture not a conversion, check the fit on this one. It is better.