What do you supose would happen if you preped 20 cases for your marlin 45/70, then bought a box leverution 450 marlin, pulled the bullets from the 450,s pored the charge into the 45/70 cases, seathed the bullets and started shooting,
I,ll do it !
Right after you !
...tj3006

Another Darwin award winner!

quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:
Another Darwin award winner!

Not necesarily so. Aren't they in the same power level as those 45-70 loads by Garrett and Buffalo Bore? I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, but in either situation, the basic firearm is the same, a Marlin 336. This does make me doubt that the .450 Marlin is loaded to all that much higher pressures than say Garrett's or Buffalo Bore's ammo.
Anyway, the .450 Marlin is, IMHO, just a copy of the old .458x2.0" designed by Frank Barnes to have a hotter 45-70 type load that could be used in bolt actions. Hornady just used a wider belt to headspace so that we couldn't just trim down .458 Win. mag. cases to 2.0" and just use them. Just forces you to buy their stuff.
You should be able to look up the .458x2" in any copy of cartridges of the World. Just something to consider and think about. I'll stick to the 45-70.
Paul B.

i would do it...

the 45-70 actualy has slightly more capacity than the 450 because of case design.

the marlin is good to 47000 psi according to a trusted gunsmith but not for regular loads. its just a +p 45-70 load. if you are scared put it in a led sled and pull the trigger with a string.

quote:

450 Marlin is, IMHO, just a copy of the old .458x2.0 Hornady just used a wider belt to headspace so that we couldn't just trim down .458 Win. mag. cases to 2.0" and just use them. Just forces you to buy their stuff

They also did it so their version wouldn't chamber in a 7mm STW, 300 Wby, or 340 Wby as can be done with the 458 x 2 inch...a fella doesn't need to run any numbers through Quickload to know that would be a very bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

450 Marlin is, IMHO, just a copy of the old .458x2.0 Hornady just used a wider belt to headspace so that we couldn't just trim down .458 Win. mag. cases to 2.0" and just use them. Just forces you to buy their stuff

They also did it so their version wouldn't chamber in a 7mm STW, 300 Wby, or 340 Wby as can be done with the 458 x 2 inch...a fella doesn't need to run any numbers through Quickload to know that would be a very bad idea.

What'dya think... 150Kpsi?
To swage a .458 bullet through a 30cal bore?

As for putting a factory 450marlin load into a 45-70 case in a Marlin 1895?

It probably isn't AS hot as any of my handloads....

AllanD

quote:

quote:

quote:

Hornady just used a wider belt to headspace so that we couldn't just trim down .458 Win. mag. cases to 2.0" and just use them.

They also did it so their version wouldn't chamber in a 7mm STW, 300 Wby, or 340 Wby as can be done with the 458 x 2 inch

What'dya think... 150Kpsi?
To swage a .458 bullet through a 30cal bore?

And what sort of twist rate is needed to stabilize a 350 gr .284 bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:
Another Darwin award winner!

Not necesarily so. Aren't they in the same power level as those 45-70 loads by Garrett and Buffalo Bore? I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, but in either situation, the basic firearm is the same, a Marlin 336. This does make me doubt that the .450 Marlin is loaded to all that much higher pressures than say Garrett's or Buffalo Bore's ammo.
Anyway, the .450 Marlin is, IMHO, just a copy of the old .458x2.0" designed by Frank Barnes to have a hotter 45-70 type load that could be used in bolt actions. Hornady just used a wider belt to headspace so that we couldn't just trim down .458 Win. mag. cases to 2.0" and just use them. Just forces you to buy their stuff.
You should be able to look up the .458x2" in any copy of cartridges of the World. Just something to consider and think about. I'll stick to the 45-70.
Paul B.

My concern is the Hornaday ammo is loaded with canister powder that we can't buy or replicate and I've read the warnings over and over about what not to do.

Yeah, some of us would love to have the Hornady powder used to load up some Garrett 540 gr solids.

My concern is the Hornaday ammo is loaded with canister powder that we can't buy or replicate and I've read the warnings over and over about what not to do[/quote]

I don't think that is really any big deal. it shouldn't be too difficult to duplicate Hornady's velocities with something like IMR-3031, just as one example. Normally, I just load a 330 gr. cast hollow point bullet to about 1600+ FPS and figure that's good enough for what use I have for the 45-70. That doesn't mean I haven't tried stiffer loads, believe me I have. It's just that for my use they are not necessary. If I want to use a stiffer load in the 45-70, I'll use my Ruger #1S.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
i would do it...

the 45-70 actualy has slightly more capacity than the 450 because of case design.

the marlin is good to 47000 psi according to a trusted gunsmith but not for regular loads. its just a +p 45-70 load. if you are scared put it in a led sled and pull the trigger with a string.

I am glad someone else knows there cartridges as well as I do. The 45-70 Marlin rifle would handle the 450 Marlin load just fine.

Thomas Jones,
Did you forget the 450 Marlin is still shot in a Marlin. People forget the 45-70 is not just a trapdoor load.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
i would do it...

the 45-70 actualy has slightly more capacity than the 450 because of case design.

the marlin is good to 47000 psi according to a trusted gunsmith but not for regular loads. its just a +p 45-70 load. if you are scared put it in a led sled and pull the trigger with a string.

I am glad someone else knows there cartridges as well as I do. The 45-70 Marlin rifle would handle the 450 Marlin load just fine.

Thomas Jones,
Did you forget the 450 Marlin is still shot in a Marlin. People forget the 45-70 is not just a trapdoor load.

the part the nay-sayers are forgtting is that we're talking about using a SAFE propellant charge and THE SAME BULLET in a LARGER volume case...
If anything the pressure will be LOWER....

So where's the worry?

AllanD

If I remember correctly, the .450 Marlin was invented primarily to boost a bullet to the speed that handloaders had been getting in the Marlin 45-70.

The .45-70 is a much, much better cartridge than the factory stuff you get off a shelf. All that factory fodder has to be safe at trapdoor levels, lest some yahoo deconstruct his rifle on a bench somewhere.

The Lee manual Second edition says that both cases have a useful capacity of 4.06 cc. I haven't measured them, so I don't know.

However, that same Lee manual lists loads at three levels and reserves the hottest ones for bolt action and Ruger falling block rifles. I'd be real careful about loading a Marlin .45-70 too hot, but that's just me.

Go ask the guys over at Leverguns. They can tell you what they're getting out of their Marlins.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
the part the nay-sayers are forgtting is that we're talking about using a SAFE propellant charge and THE SAME BULLET in a LARGER volume case...
If anything the pressure will be LOWER....

So where's the worry?

AllanD

The possible danger I see is in that the case capacity difference may not make as much difference as the thickness of the brass. That is the weakest link in the pressure chain and it is thinner on the 45-70 case. The capacities are actually quite similar.

Im not saying that it wouldnt be safe, just that it MIGHT not be.. That is why we start small and work up.

Winchester is probably the thinnest of all available 45-70 brass. Winchester 45-70 brass has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure. It is the rifle action/barrel, not the brass that is the limiting factor in Marlin lever guns. If loaded to yield similar stress on the Marlin lever gun the 45-70 and 450 Marlin are virtual ballistic equivalents. The problem in this discussion is that Hornady applies specific loading techniques to the Leverevolution ammo that could not be replicated by the handloader trying to reassemble the components into 45-70 ammo.

quote:

It is the rifle action/barrel, not the brass that is the limiting factor in Marlin lever guns.

Well said... And I hasten to add that this statement is not restricted to Marlin lever guns only. The action/chamber/barrel have always been, and will continue to be, the limiting factor(s).

Lever Evolution 45-70 brass = 2.040

Trim to length of 45-70 brass = 2.095

I assume this is to accomadate the OAL requirements to feed through a levergun.

quote:

... And I hasten to add that this statement is not restricted to Marlin lever guns only. The action/chamber/barrel have always been, and will continue to be, the limiting factor(s).

It might be well that this is the reason for Marlin to use different barrel threads and special heat treating for the 1895M to take the pressure of the .450 Marlin.

---
Tom

quote:

It might be well that this is the reason for Marlin to use different barrel threads and special heat treating for the 1895M to take the pressure of the .450 Marlin.

Wrong. The SAAMI pressure specification for the 45-70, like all cartridges, is partially based on the weakest firearms in circulation that the round might be used in. That is not the Marlin 1895. The Marlin 1895 was not designed to be limited to SAAMI 45-70 pressures and Winchester 45-70 brass has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure. It is well established in the literature that the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP. Marlin says they will not be responsible for damage to their rifles if you use any non-standard ammunition or handloads, even if they are within SAAMI specs. When loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns the 450 Marlin and 45-70 are virtual ballistic equivalents. The 45-70 has more case capacity than the 450 Marlin. While the 1895M/MR does have square barrel threads (probably for production management purposes more than anything), it is a myth that the 1895M/MR has special heat treating. Even Marlin and Hornady state that the 450 Marlin was created to produce a cartridge that would equal the potential of the 45-70 in a Marlin lever gun while not being able to be chambered in older, weaker 45-70 rifles and magnum cartridge chambers. It is common knowledge that the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP. Which is virtually equivalent to the 43,500 PSI standard for the 450 Marlin. The 45-70 yields about 42,732 PSI at 40,000 CUP and it has a slightly larger area inside the case interfacing the breech bolt. So the 45-70 at 40,000 CUP exterts approximately the same bolt thrust as the 450 Marlin at 43,500 PSI and the 444 Marlin at 44,000 CUP. The Hornady 350 grain 450 Marlin load only comes in at 42,000 PSI. Marlin is so afraid of its lawyers that they are telling people that the 1895M/MR receivers get additional heat treating to perpetuate their recent SAAMI stance on the Marlin 1895 45-70. Why would they give the Marlin 336/444/1895 receiver special heat treating when it doesn't need it to accommodate the 43,500 PSI of the 450 Marlin? The square barrel threads do nothing to contribute to the strength of the Marlin 1895M/MR/MXLR compared to the Marlin 1895 45-70 rifles.

quote:

...the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP

Jackfish,

I’m sure you can provide evidence of correctness for all your statements if things are brought to court in case of an accident.

Leaving all the legal stuff aside, one question still remains.

Why should one buy a new gun (Marlin 1895) in .45-70 if the potential of this cartridge can only be achieved with handloads or by buying very expensive special ammo i.e. Buffallo Bore or Garrett’s, if the same gun is available in .450 Marlin that can do all what a beefed up .45-70 can do, while the .450 Marlin is available without all the hassle, with better accuracy and without the risk of inadvertently stuffing an +P load into an old trapdoor rifle?

---
Tom

How can you say that a .450 Marlin is more accurate than a .45-70?? I'm sure the .450 is a fine cartridge in it's own right, but I fail to see any basis why it should be more accurate. They're both basically straight wall cartridges...one headspaces on the rim and the other on the belt.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Hunter:

quote:

...the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP

Jackfish,

I’m sure you can provide evidence of correctness for all your statements if things are brought to court in case of an accident.

Leaving all the legal stuff aside, one question still remains.

Why should one buy a new gun (Marlin 1895) in .45-70 if the potential of this cartridge can only be achieved with handloads or by buying very expensive special ammo i.e. Buffallo Bore or Garrett’s, if the same gun is available in .450 Marlin that can do all what a beefed up .45-70 can do, while the .450 Marlin is available without all the hassle, with better accuracy and without the risk of inadvertently stuffing an +P load into an old trapdoor rifle?

---
Tom

Well, one could easily say, "Why Not?" An 1895 Marlin in 45-70 loaded to .450 Marlin levels is going to have stout recoil. One can buy standard 45-70 level loads for many uses and can either handload to a higher should they so choose. Also, they can always buy the pricey Buffalo Bore or Garrett ammo, again should they so choose. With the .450 marlin, one starts out with already built in "OUCH!" factor and must handload to lower levers if they feel the need for normal 45-70 power.
Just my personal opinion, but I feel one has more flexibility with the 45-70, especially if that person is just starting out with a rifle of that caliber. More importantly, 1895 marlins do kick a bit and it would be easier for a newbie to big bore rifles starting out to work with the lighter loads of the strictly stock factory 45-70 loads. You can't do that with a standard full power .450 Marlin unless you're already a handloader and can get new unprimed brass to make up the lighter loads.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
Winchester is probably the thinnest of all available 45-70 brass. Winchester 45-70 brass has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure. It is the rifle action/barrel, not the brass that is the limiting factor in Marlin lever guns. .

That Winchester 45-70 brass may have been tested to 70,000 psi is a moot point. I can garantee that that test was not conducted in a trapdoor action. Irreguardless of what action a 45-70 is fired in, the BRASS is still softer than the action. Yes the action has a lot to do with pressure limits, but in no way shape or form is the brass ever superior in strength to the action..

Back to my point, 450 Marlin brass is thicker than 45-70. Therefore in the SAMe action it can be driven to slightly higher pressures..

I never said that cartridge brass is stronger than the rifle action. I said in the case of the Marlin 1895 (45-70 or 450 Marlin) the action/barrel is the limiting factor, not the cartridge case. The issue of 45-70 brass strength is pertinent in comparisons between the 45-70 Gov't and 450 Marlin in Marlin lever action rifles. When someone asserts the 450 Marlin cartridge case is stronger than 45-70 brass, I feel obligated to point out the respective brass makes no difference at all when either is chambered in a Marlin 1895 action. The brass is not the limiting factor with the Marlin 1895 action, it is the rifle action/barrel that is. The 45-70 can be loaded to 50,000 CUP in the Ruger #1, and the 450 Marlin can be loaded to 65,000 PSI in a modern bolt action. Such loads would likely cause the eventual (possibly immediate in the second case) dismantling of a Marlin 1895. The thicker brass of the 450 Marlin offers it no advantage compared to the 45-70 when both are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns. They are virtual ballistic equivalents when loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns and I have seen no evidence that 450 Marlin brass lasts any longer than 45-70 brass as there is little difference between them where they are likely to fail, and that is at the neck where the brass is worked the most. The only reason the 450 Marlin can be loaded to slightly greater pressure than the 45-70 in the Marlin 1895 action is that it has a slightly smaller cross sectional area inside the case interfacing the bolt. Hence, the forces exerted on the action by the 450 Marlin at 43,500 PSI are roughly equivalent to those by the 45-70 at 40,000 CUP (approximately 42,732 PSI).

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

the marlin is good to 47000 psi according to a trusted gunsmith but not for regular loads. its just a +p 45-70 load.

The Marlin was at one time chambered in 307, 356 and 375 Winchester. These are 52,000 CUP cartridges.

quote:

The Marlin was at one time chambered in 307, 356 and 375 Winchester. These are 52,000 CUP cartridges.

They also have a smaller cross sectional area interfacing the bolt face than the 45-70, and more meat under the barrel threads. So at equal pressures the bolt thrust is less than that exterted by the 45-70. Joe at www.realguns.com says some of his 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895 approach 45,000 PSI. I will stick with published loads for my Marlin 1895 that are limited to 40,000 CUP.

Guts are what our guys in Anbar Province have. Having guts has nothing to do with demonstrating a lack of common sense.

A little research for all...
source: Hornady Reloading Handbook, Vol 1, Sixth ed.

They list 3 loads for the 45-70
Trapdoor at 25k CUP 300gn bullet, 43.5gn of N-130 1900fps

1895 Marlin at 40K CUP 350gn bullet, 47.4gn of N-130, 1900fps

Ruger #1 50K CUP 350gn bullet, 56.3gn of N-130, 2200fps

The 450 Marlin equivilant load from the next page...
350gn bullet, 53.5gn of N-130, 2000fps

I'd pull the trigger. the conclusion is in black and white.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
[a fella doesn't need to run any numbers through Quickload to know that would be a very bad idea.

It would "probably" be safe but I dont think I'll try it. I also dont have use quickload to decide.

quote:

Originally posted by brasskeeper:

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
[a fella doesn't need to run any numbers through Quickload to know that would be a very bad idea.

It would "probably" be safe but I dont think I'll try it. I also dont have use quickload to decide.

I said:

"They also did it [referring to the double wide belt on the 450 Marlin case] so their version wouldn't chamber in a 7mm STW, 300 Wby, or 340 Wby as can be done with the 458 x 2 inch...a fella doesn't need to run any numbers through Quickload to know that would be a very bad idea."

Are you suggesting that sort of disaster is "probably" safe?

No I did'nt forget anything,
I think it would probably work just fine but I was hoping somebody else would try it first.
I have no concernes about the rifle handeling the preasure , but what about the brass ?
...tj3006

I can think of several reasons why one might but a 45/70 , instead of a 450 marlin. One being I like to hand load, another being I can load up some stiff ones and buy a box of factory stuff for a lady frend to shoot.
as far as accuracy is concerned, my 1895 marlin puts a 350 grain hornady flatt nose into a little over an inch 1.10 to be exact at 1950 FPS.
I am curious about the leverution stuff, but I will just wait till I can buy bullets and load them up. If I could get 2050 or more with the 325 grain pointed bullet I think it would add 50 yards to the usfull range of the marlin.
Mabye more but that would suprise me.
Lets fase it its still not going very fast , but I do like hunting with my marlin and 50 yards is 50 yards...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

Originally posted by brasskeeper:

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
[a fella doesn't need to run any numbers through Quickload to know that would be a very bad idea.

It would "probably" be safe but I dont think I'll try it. I also dont have use quickload to decide.

I said:

"They also did it [referring to the double wide belt on the 450 Marlin case] so their version wouldn't chamber in a 7mm STW, 300 Wby, or 340 Wby as can be done with the 458 x 2 inch...a fella doesn't need to run any numbers through Quickload to know that would be a very bad idea."

Are you suggesting that sort of disaster is "probably" safe?

Why wouldnt a modern Marlin 1895 or ruger #1 in 45-70 handle what the 450 is loaded at?

on the other hand I would never load a cartridge with powder that I wasnt positive of its Brand, burn rate, charge rate, thats why I said I wouldnt do it.

I checked the Hornady web site, and the 450 is quite a bit hotter than the 45/70 in the poited rounds.
2250 for the 450. I looked at the regular 450 with the 350 grain flat point to compare trajectories but they are zeroed at different ranges, can't learn much.
Sure would like to get my hands on some of thos 325s though, mabye I could get 2150 or 22 with off the shelf powders. That would flatten things out a bit !
...tj3006

Hornady ONLY made this cartridge to be able to offer a hotrod 45-70 round and not be sued by the estate of the first peanut head to shoot it in his Trapdoor Springfield. The rifle is NOT any stronger as a 450 than a 45-70, it absolutely cannot be so. The 45-70 in a Marlin or 1886 Winchester (new or old)is the same receiver and barrel thickness. Send me the rifle and 100 rounds of 450, I'll shoot it all for you. You don't want to know about some of the 45-70 handloads I have made up and shot...safely.

Rich

for thomas jones at the top who started all this

why don't you just try a compressed load of 4895 and see what happens. you may never experience anything like it again !

Wstrner

You're off on your brass theory. To put it into more simple words, the brass case is the SEAL, the GASKET, to seal off the chamber for powder combustion. As long as the case fits the chamber within reasonable snugness, it's the action/type of firearm that determines the strength. Ross Seyfred proved this with 45 Long Colt brass in the 454 Casuall. If the brass fit the cylinder closely, and the revolver for the 454 have very tight tolerances in the cylinder, the headspace, the barrel/cylinder gap, etc...then it will hold just as good as the Casuall brass. It's only when the brass fits the chamber very loosely that the pressure can bulge the wall out and possibly rupture the brass. Not only was the 450 Marlin purpose descripted here, but I'm sure it was a sales gimmick also.

How about this for a thought or two.
I had a 45/70 built on a Siamese Mauser in about 1973. I fired 10 round of Winchester 510 grain soft points. The last 5 were loaded with 50 grains of 3031. The pressure indications were mild but in an 8lb rifle the recoil was grim. I thought it would break the pistol grip of the stock. There were opportunities to go higher. My rifle was throated for the 400 gran Speer set at the rear canneulre. The 500 gran bullet has about .200 left in the case when the forard part of the shank was seated against the leade. The Winchester bullet was a 2 diameter type that allowed the entire length of the nose to bore ride. The groove diameter shank was about .500 long. A lot more than 50 grains would have fit but I had had enough of that already.

Hmm, IMHO, Jackfish is correct. And, the 450 Marlin was designed simply to keep hot loaded .45-70 ammo out of the old trap door rifles, and to sell more rifles for the idea of a so called magnum type, belted case to brag about on a lever gun. I also bet the .450 will fade away. It won't do anything the .45-70s can't do. Is this topic for real?

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

It is the rifle action/barrel, not the brass that is the limiting factor in Marlin lever guns.

Well said... And I hasten to add that this statement is not restricted to Marlin lever guns only. The action/chamber/barrel have always been, and will continue to be, the limiting factor(s).

Well said?

How about dead wrong?

Just as a few Examples According to PUBLISHED load data (Nosler 5th edition)
The 45-70 Max load of IMR4198 arguably one of two "Go-To" propellants in the big straight sidd cases behind a 300gr partition is 51.5gr for2228fps.
Max load in the 450marlin? only 50.5 grains, 1 grain LESS propellant for 2082fps, that'sa rather significant 146fps SLOWER for the 450marlin

AA215BR?
45-70 58grs for 2128fps
450Marlin only 54gr for 1921fps.

ANYTHING the factory could conceiveably stuff inside a 450,marlin care is still going to be
safe in a 45-70.

RL7 goes a grain and a half more in the 450
but is still slower than the 45-70

Even if a factory load using a non-cannister propellant was a bit too hot it's only going to be so by a grain or so and is not likely to do as much as generate a symptom of pressure

All the blowups are the result of some jackass
trying to load up a charge of H335 or H322 and inadvertantly substituting the correct charge weight, but of FAR FASTER H110

So back to the original question, wuld I do it? Yep, and would do it with an entire box of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Hornady ONLY made this cartridge to be able to offer a hotrod 45-70 round and not be sued by the estate of the first peanut head to shoot it in his Trapdoor Springfield. The rifle is NOT any stronger as a 450 than a 45-70, it absolutely cannot be so. The 45-70 in a Marlin or 1886 Winchester (new or old)is the same receiver and barrel thickness. Send me the rifle and 100 rounds of 450, I'll shoot it all for you. You don't want to know about some of the 45-70 handloads I have made up and shot...safely.

Rich

I agree.

Can't be any worse than some of the loads I've fired in the past behind a 350gr hornady RN or with a 400gr Barnes "Original".

Or with some of the more interesting loads with IMR4895.

I see Barnes liss a load for their 400gr FP with IMR4064... that could be interesting...


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