The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Alaska Hunting Forum Handguns for bear protection in AlaskaGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Handguns for bear protection in Alaska | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Would the additional rounds available in a .40 S&W make it preferable to a .41 mag. for bear protection? Having examined brown bear skulls they have not struck me as being very difficult to penetrate and I believe thatfrom a handgun only a CNS shot would stop a determined charge in time. I don't believe any handgun made would be capable of stopping a brown with other than a CNS shot. I can load a 180 gr. WFN to over 1100 fps out of a .40 S&W. This would not have even crossed my mind if Phil wouldn't have stopped one with a 9mm and I know of another case where a hiker on Denali "got 'er dun" with a .45 acp when a large grizzly attacked his girlfriend. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | ||
|
| one of us |
The current Sports Afield has good articles on bear defense. An interesting read. Dave | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ask Phil. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks I'll pick up a copy. Wish I could read Phil's article in American Hunter but I get American Rifleman. I don't fully trust these hunting or shooting scribes. Sometimes they are just writing something for a paycheck. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Go to the link under the topic "Nice job Phil Shoemaker" in this Alaskan Forum and you can read it there. You can trust Phil! | |||
|
One of Us |
I believe the larger caliber would make for better bear protection. In most cases where a firearm was actually required, I really don't think you'll have opportunity to unload a high capacity magazine. My thinking is that at close range and high speed, one or just a few shots would be all you could hope for and in my case I'd prefer a reasonably sized cartridge. On the other hand, I'd not favor an oversized like some of the turbo magnums offered today. I see the 460's and 500's as less maneuverable and useable than the more usual sizes like the 357 and 44. Yes I did see the Shoemaker article and I am guiding everyday for trout and other on a salmon stream with bear sightings several times a day. | |||
|
one of us |
I have stopped a number of real bear charges with rifles from the 30-06 to the 505 Gibbs and rate "shoot-ability", including speed of fire, as second only to bullet placement. It's no different with a handgun , as Bill Jorden pointed out in his book " No Second Place Winner " He said he found the ability to quickly place additional hits quicker with a 357 to be of more benefit that the extra power of a 44. I am certainly not recommending a 9mm for bear defense, but if you are familiar with one and that is what you have then it will get it done. And I am sure a 357, 44 , 475 or 500 will too, but only if you have it with you and can make hits quickly, and often, with it. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| one of us |
It not really "my" article as the editor ask for a short summary of the incident and then quickly wrote about it for the AM Hunter online magazine I may write a full article about it in the future with more photos. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Good job Phil. Every single night I spend in a tent up there I think about a pistol for bears. I hope to hell I never need one. Some of those bears just aren't scared and don't give a damn. We flew low over one day before yesterday . He just stood there and glared at us. | |||
|
| One of Us |
velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Re; original topic. I found and shot a 10mm Glock, 15 round magazine, yesterday for $600.00. I'm just about to jump on this deal. I have two good .41 magnums, but only 6 shots, which would be fine if Mr.or Mrs. Bear would hold still long enough for me to hit him exactly where I want. Otherwise I place a lot of value on capacity. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
|
One of Us |
I've heard the 10mm Glock is quite the gun. I would jump on it. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
|
| one of us |
I have shot a brown bear but with a rifle. Now I experienced a hand gun accidentally fired at me face to face at about 8 feet, the bullet out of a 357mag Python using the old overpower supervel ammo of the 70's went by my head and over by shoulder and penetrate a wall about 8 feet behind me at about 7 feet high. Now how my body reacted to the muzzle flash, concussion followed by realization of what happened was astounding. First I lost my vision which came back slowly over the next couple of seconds, my hearing was gone and it took longer for it to return. The concussion initially caused my muscles to tremble which I am certain had nothing to do due with realization since I was not expecting it. When my senses started returning and I was able to see the fellow who shot I thought I would see him laughing since I thought he had put a blank however once I saw his face and seen his eyes looking for the hole I realized it was a live round that he failed to clear. Now point, combat shooters know it is always best to get off the first round since you deprive your target of his senses offering time to move and shoot more precisely. Hip drawn weapons are the best since once the barrels gets clear of you and in the direction of the target spray and pay. Again big difference if you have a six gun instead of 16 in a semi but again there is no guarantee of a fast second shot with a semi if a malfunction occurs, a revolver rarely malfunctions so your choice. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
|
| One of Us |
I bought a Glock #20, 10 mm, found one with very little to no use for about a $150.00 savings velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
A stoked 10mm with high capacity would be my bare minimum but not my first choice for large bears. No doubt, large bears can do an immense amount of damage to a human body in a very short time. Anything less is downright gambling regardless the man behind the gun. I have everything in handguns between a .22 and a 500 S&W and been shooting/hunting with them for over 10 years and know handgun capabilities quite well...well enough to know a 9mm for large bear protection falls short on reason unless it was all you had in an unknown/unforeseen circumstance. My 10mm is a Glock 40 Longslide. Power trumps Luck. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Power trumps luck? Lol I like it. But don't agree with it. Power straight off into the air don't trump a lucky .22 long rifle to the brain.... As I've said before. When you have a gun and have a bear encounter, you have a bear gun. | |||
|
| One of Us |
About 30 years ago on my first trip to Alaska about 150 mile NE of Kotzebue I slept in a 2 man tent (never understood that?? actually one man) with a S&W 629 on my chest at night. Just not a lot of room to move around. I just decided one day I would have me a handy "tent gun". I was in heaven when Marlin brought out their stainless lever 45-70 guide gun. Buffalo Bore complimented it with some great ammo. I would much rather carry it than a X frame Smith and a lot more "BANG". I sleep in a bigger tent now as well! Fabricated a rail to accept a rail light on the magazine. I am looking at a DW Bruin 10mm as well for the lower 48 (Below Wyoming). I like the 10 mm's and hard cast ammo. Glock 20's and now 40's are popular. I love that little handy lever though! | |||
|
| one of us |
Bullet placement is king, given a bullet that has enough power to penetrate into the vitals. It really doesn't matter what caliber it is as along as it destroys the vitals. Having shot several bears with the 41 and 44 mags 210 and 315gr hard cast they both worked well. A friend of mine killed a blk bear that dressed out at just under 600lbs with factory 240jsps. They worked well also. Phil's 9mm isn't the first one, a fellow a few years back used a 9mm and one shot to stop a brown bear a few years back. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If you get a failure with a Glock it is due to either bad ammo or a total lack of maintenance. IMHO they are just about as reliable as an AK 47. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Easy...apparently 9mm is the new caliber of choice!! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Funny, the 9mm is barely adequate for a 200lb thug....now it is the go-to for 1000lb brownies! Anyone, and I don't care who they are, that uses a 9mm when he has other better choices at their disposal for protection against large bears is a damned fool. What is worse, is if that person is protecting others with that 9mm. That is just reckless behavior. Yes, go ahead and count on luck......visit Las Vegas for a primer on what luck is. Those casino's were not built on lucky gamblers! Any guide using a 9mm to protect clients from large bears needs to have their license revoked immediately. Those clients deserve better than a guide who wants to make risky bets on their lives. | |||
|
| one of us |
Talk is cheap, I am always glad to listen to advise from folks with honest experience and if you would care to share your experiences of killing brown bears and how and why a person with a 9mm can not kill a brown bear with one I am more than willing to listen. I never recommended a 9mm, or any handgun for that matter, as a weapon for hunting brown bears. But only reported that it was a viable caliber, with proper bullets and shot placement, for protection. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
One of Us |
I do agree that the potential of having the time or speed to empty a 15 round mag into an inbound bear is unreasonable. Hopefully a person would get time for 3 or 4 fast aimed shots before impact. But. That's how many the mag holds on a G20 . And I figure it's better to have them than not. For myself, I like and pack the G20 because it's easy to pack and shoot and I'm more accurate with it. I wore mine all the time , every day this placer mining season. After all, we were Gold mining. The G20 is just great for 2 or 4 legged problems. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have zero experience killing brown bears, however I do have extensive knowledge/experience with handguns and know their limitations with both jacketed and hardcast bullets. I doubt many bear guides have that level of knowledge and they rely on manufacturer data..which in a 9mm is typically not on 1000lb bears. Some people confuse and misunderstand data with real world outcomes....and I mean consistent outcomes and not lucky ones. A 9mm is NOT a reliable weapon for close range large bear protection when you have to stop and/or end it quickly. Far from it. If that is all you happen to have, that is one thing...but to carry it on purpose when you have better choices at your disposal...and for the sole purpose to protect clients...probably not a wise decision. here is just a single reason...what if that bear, being that close to chewing on clients did not present a shot that would have yielded a or a few bullets into the vital components..such as if a rear angle raking shot is all there was....that 9mm even with hardcast would have been useless. remember, no time for trying to get around to finding a best angle shot when the bear is munching on the clients. Seconds count.....which is why it is best to already have what is up to an any angle shot. A 9mm is not. I have many, many handguns from 20 caliber to 51 caliber and all of them in between....I know handguns and their true capabilities..no smoke and mirrors here. So, go ahead and protect clients from 1000lb bears with a 9mm and sooner than later, you will be hiring a lawyer. It would be interesting to see what the cartridge manufacturer had to say then. It's not about my experience killing brownies so much as it is about your responsibility to do everything possible to protect clients. I still think of you as one of the best bear guides ever...don't ruin that reputation on a foolhardy idea. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'd rather have Phil protecting me as a client with just a fishing pole in my hand with a 9mm than most folks with a 44 mag. Being cool and a good shot under pressure is worth a bunch. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Maybe so, but wouldn't you rather have Phil protecting you with something "right sized"? A persons bear guiding experience and shooting ability cannot make up for a lack of bullet horsepower when the SHTF....hey there are no shortages of people gambling with their lives...but I ain't one of them. I love the saying where someone says about how many Inuit's killed Polar bears with a .222, which begs the question....How many died trying? You never get a response. Yep, the .222 is reliable Polar bear medicine.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
As has been said, talk is cheap. You claim experience in handguns Woodie, .458 demonstrates handgun experience. You acknowledge no bear experience, we all see it too, .458 has the bear experience. You've proven yourself to be a marginal typist, nothing more. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ok, I'll pile on... I don't understand anybody that argues with Phil Shoemaker (or any other credible experienced Brown Bear guide). It's like trying to long dink John Holmes... | |||
|
| one of us |
Woodrow, I also own a lot of guns and have a bit of knowledge and some very real experiences with them as well and have tested quite a few handguns with various bullets on actual bear carcass' and have a pretty good idea of what it takes to reliably kill big bears. Hunting and self protection are two differtent things and if I were hunting bears and had to use a handgun I would take something like my son's Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh rather than my S&W 44 Mtn Gun. But in real world situations with average shooters the statistics show that those using 357 revolver had better success than those carrying a 44 magnum. And in my testing I have found that good 180 gr 357 loads penetrate as deep as most heavy 44 Mag loads and are a lot faster to use. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
On a recent hunt I was carrying my 10mm 1911 loaded with Hornady Xtp in 180 grain. My client shot a grizzly and as it ran off with a hole in it his gun jammed and wouldn't feed. Around 180 yards out I started shooting in hopes of helping. My first shot took it in the back end, not stopping it but dropping its rear and slowing it down. Second shot hit farther forward and I recovered the slug. The client got his gun lined out and made some good shots, finishing the bear. At the range I was shooting my bullet didn't even expand. But it did penetrate. Would I ahoot a bear with this at closer ranges? You bet. I have before.  | |||
|
| one of us |
My reputation was built on performance, not someone's fancifull idea of bears and big guns. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| one of us |
Two guides in my moose camp carried that round as well. They say it is a good balance between speed of followup shots and initial lethality. As for Phil's shot, today I shot at 1290 yards with my .338 Edge and hit four inches left with perfect elevation on my first try...does that mean I can do it every time? I bought a .454 Casull (the Redhawk Alaskan model) for protection while salmon fishing; the recoil is so horrendous it is difficult imagining getting off more than two shots, or even two. Personally, I wouldn't take a 9mm, but Phil's shot does bring into question the value of aimed follow up shots, as well as the fact that a 9mm is better than nothing. | |||
|
| One of Us |
"Better than nothing"....amen to that! | |||
|
| One of Us |
My friend has one of those Redhawk snubbie 454 Casulls. I took two shots, emptied the other rounds into my hand and gave it back to him. I was sure if I had finished all five or six (I can't remember) I would've developed a flinch. His Redhawk 454 Casull witha 7 inch barrel was not a problem. That thing hurts! Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am always amazed at how absolutely positive people who have probably never even seen a large bear in the wild can have such firm opinions about what some one who deals with bears for a living should or should not do.... oh well it is the internet you know. the dangerous things aren't the things you don't know it is the things that you are damn sure of that are wrong that cause problems. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am surprised at how well the 180 XTP worked for you . I worked up a load with 800X and the 200 gr XTP as it was the heaviest bullet I could find on that town trip. I do want to get some 220gr Rim Rock TC bullets. 800 X is a slow powder to load as the flakes have to be weighed. The auto loaders don't need much babysitting. But, they are susceptible to grit in the mags so that has to be watched. But for their size, shape and weight. They are very easy to always have on hand. It would be nice if the M+P and the XD was available in 10mm with a heavy spring. But, the CZ, Glock and the 1911s are available and not overly priced. And, at least with the Glock, aftermarket barrels are available in the same and other carts like 40 S+W which makes for easy practice. Anyway, that's some of the reasons I chose the 10. I'm not any kind of great shot with mine, but better than with most of the short barrel heavy revolvers. I shot about as well with the 480 Super Redhawk 7 1/2". But then it's not so handy for other things. I've always of the opinion that a loaded rifle in hand is faster at stopping a charge than a handgun in a holster. But, lots of times having a rifle in hand is very impractical. Not really a Lot to argue about, but the forums seem to be somewhat dormant atm. :-). Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Jake, not in anyway doubting or questioning you. And I'm very impressed with your shooting and the bullets performance. Good job !! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
|
| one of us |
If you are doubting it yourself then I doubt it as well - but what does that have to do with my being able to consistantly keep all my shots from a 9mm within four inches at 10 feet ? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks cold trigger. Finding this thread more entertaining than informative at this point. Phil killed a animal with a gun. Not understanding the shock that's hit everyone. Maybe I assumed that guns will kill when used properly. As did Phil, otherwise he'd have never carried it. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sooo many guys have suffered from Cooperitis for so long. They rate the 9 right next to the 25ACP or 22 Short. While I know that is an exaggeration. In some people's mind , What Phil did has to be impossible. Also, they don't understand Phil's decision to carry that gun on that occasion. I do, he knows where he lives, hunts, guides, Works. I'm sure that with the precautions they took . Having to shoot a bear wasn't something he planned on needing to do. That that bear chose to act the way it did is just a reminder to everyone to be prepared. One thing that makes me scratch my head is guys getting hung up or stirred up if someone packs something like a 416 or 458 to go fishing or deer hunting. Like as if , ( Oh , that guy must really be scared of bears because he's deer hunting with a 458. ) . Seems odd to me because it's as natural for me to do that as it is for some guys to hunt deer with a 22/250 or an 06. Also, when something different happens to someone, too often the internet press is slobbering to affix blame on the person's actions. I would say that I haven't been innocent of that trespass myself. Eventually we may collectively get to the point where we understand that sometimes and in some places bears act differently. That may be too much to hope for. But. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Alaska Hunting Forum Handguns for bear protection in Alaska
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia